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Probably not having the realization that most people are weird on here and like knives that go dull fast just so we can sharpen them 
Cpm 10v gyuto passaround
- Thread starter Blank Blades.
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Imo, once you get above that 63 or so hrc range. Its better to just use 4v/v4e
For me, a workhorse needs to be able to keep a constant rhythm when I'm going through big batches of produce. The two barriers to this for me are thickness behind the edge, behind the tip, and backside sticking. If I tell my right hand to cut like a metronome, I want my left hand to keep up with that rhythm, and the backside stick is a personal pet peeve. If the knife drops the beat, my left hand fingers get shorter.
This is in addition to all the comments about "being a little wide in the transom" that others mentioned.
Also, consistent distal taper is the mark of a really great workhorse. That means it stays in hand for onions rather than getting swapped out.
I want makers to internalize that "thin behind the tip" is the onion equivalent of "thin behind the edge" for everything else. And it needs to go back several inches - dealing with the last inch or so isn't really enough. That's what separates a Yanick, Kamon or Bidinger from a 9, Shihan or Joel Black, e.g.
The two produce tests for thinness are easy:
- if you can cut all three dimensions of an onion in a single, smooth swipe without feeling finger danger, then it's thin behind the tip
- if you can cut a fat stack of 1/4" sweet potato slices into frittes without them sliding around and needing to prop them up with a Spider-Man claw grip, then it's thin behind the edge.
I'll take any challengers to these tests. I don't care if it cracks a carrot or not. I don't care if it's Teflon against wet russets. Those don't tell me anything special about keeping a steady rhythm for a big pile of varied produce.
This is in addition to all the comments about "being a little wide in the transom" that others mentioned.
Also, consistent distal taper is the mark of a really great workhorse. That means it stays in hand for onions rather than getting swapped out.
I want makers to internalize that "thin behind the tip" is the onion equivalent of "thin behind the edge" for everything else. And it needs to go back several inches - dealing with the last inch or so isn't really enough. That's what separates a Yanick, Kamon or Bidinger from a 9, Shihan or Joel Black, e.g.
The two produce tests for thinness are easy:
- if you can cut all three dimensions of an onion in a single, smooth swipe without feeling finger danger, then it's thin behind the tip
- if you can cut a fat stack of 1/4" sweet potato slices into frittes without them sliding around and needing to prop them up with a Spider-Man claw grip, then it's thin behind the edge.
I'll take any challengers to these tests. I don't care if it cracks a carrot or not. I don't care if it's Teflon against wet russets. Those don't tell me anything special about keeping a steady rhythm for a big pile of varied produce.
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In a pass around thread even...
Town crier needs to holler this from every square
Definitely could be better, but I feel the margin between them and Zwear would be pretty small for end user like me. Anyway nice to see the pass round going so well, hope all the best for the rest of it.
Sure it doesnt matter a ton.
But also, i think if one is better in a certain range, then might as well go with that. No reason not to imo. Well, besides how much zwear has gotten hyped up in the kitchen knife world somehow.
I've even had a conversation with someone, and mentioned maybe using cruwear for something. They basically replied with something along the lines that zwear would be a better choice. Even though the two are the same steel. I can't remember everything from the convo, but it was basically just people arguing with me against using pm steels for kitchen knives. Yet they still had the idea that zwear was somehow excluded from whatever made them dislike other similar steel. Which i assume was something they picked up from this forum. But i really dont know.
Lol that's interesting, maybe they are talking about the ingot cruwear? Tho Zwear are entirely PM as far as I know. I always use cruwear and zwear interchangeably, tho Matt used Zwear for mine
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Personally I prefer sg2 to r2 but I'm a conessiour
Idk. I doubt it. Especially since all the other steels talked about in that particular convo were also pm steels.
Honestly I just write Zwear out of laziness. It could be real Zwear or CPM-Cruwear....probably the latter. Same composition, different facilities I think.....maybe it's like Sandvic AEB-L and Buderus 13c26 having different toughness? Idk...
I could see aeb-l, and 13c26 being more dependant on that. Since theyre ingot steels. I imagine the processing could have a big impact.
Also, idk how strict they are with 13c26 on their sulfur and phosphorus levels. If the tolerances arent as high that could effect it.
But anyway. I think for pm steels it doesnt make a huge difference, from what I've seen. Like m390, 20cv, 204p. They are basically identical.
The real thing that is going to matter, is the heat treatment as far as how one performs vs the other (disregarding geometry of course). Also who knows. Maybe one heat to the next the difference seen due to different levels of the alloying elements, you could even see a bigger difference between the same steel, than from one vs the other.
This forum doesn’t bash higher carbide steels for kitchen knives. People just say they are harder to sharpen and typically require diamond stones. carbon steels are easy to sharpen, get scary sharp, and stay sharp long enough. If you like to sharpen then it’s fine if you need to do it every week or two or even every shift and you probably prefer the feel of traditional stones over diamond.
There are plenty around here that appreciate higher carbide steels - if you get them scary sharp they stay that way for a while.
Lots of room for personal preference.
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Eh, a lot of people on here turn their nose to them. I think it's been shifting the past few years though.
It wasnt this forum actually that i had this convo on. Though i think they may be around here.
I was saying the zwear idea came from this forum. From what i can tell.
Though. I have seen people bash high alloy stuff here for sure in the past. Maybe less so now. But i definitely have seen it.
I just don't understand why you'd bash a high alloy? My only beef with it is I don't have diamonds to sharpen it. Fine, cool another rabbit hole to be saved for later, as a treat.
Edit: I think the performance on standard synthetic stones that BB referenced early on for this knife is probably a good reason. Technically able to be sharpened on synthetics but giving subpar results leading people to think the steel is not worth the effort. Hell I could fall into that trap if no one warned me.
Edit: I think the performance on standard synthetic stones that BB referenced early on for this knife is probably a good reason. Technically able to be sharpened on synthetics but giving subpar results leading people to think the steel is not worth the effort. Hell I could fall into that trap if no one warned me.
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Yes.
And most of the reports on these steels I saw here. With people bashing them. Were describing exactly what you would see if sharpening on normal stones.
- They seem hard to sharpen
- The initial sharpeness doesnt seem that great.
- The front end sharpness doesn't last very long
- It just remains kinda half sharp for a long time.
Thankfully now days, you can get diamond plates fairly cheap, and theyre very easy to find. And with venevs you can get bonded diamond for the same price or less per stone as traditional abrasives. Or if someone really wanted to dive into getting the latest and greatest options they have even fancier diamond stones available currently.
But if i was just talking to someone that was buying a knife from me, that didn't have diamond to sharpen on. I would tell them to buy a dmt coarse (or something equivalent), and a strop of some kind to load with 1 micron diamond. The edge from that, i find really hard to beat. Even with the fancy bonded diamond stones i like to use.
I bet every one of them would jump on a magnacut devin if it was $200 on BST.
To get back on topic here, I never saw final specs on the passaround. Length, height, spine thickness, weight. Did anyone capture that yet?
I think some of this was even a bit muddled due messaging from vendors, sometimes very good ones. Science of Sharp, Sean and Larrin have been the contrarian voices that shed light on the true need for really hard abrasive for certain steel. The SEM imagery from Science of Sharp drove the point home for me. Even something like R2 seems to benefit from diamond. You CAN get a good edge with AlOx, but not easily.
Also understanding you can't always push a big Vanadium carbide steel past a 2-4k polish very easily. Often less is more. Your approach of a DMT coarse plus strop recapitulates what I hear many people have success with.
Toe: dipped
Merry Christmas to me or something like that.
Won't use it on this blade of course but good to just get the roadblock down. Anywho I'm very much looking forward to this PA knife.
Merry Christmas to me or something like that.
Won't use it on this blade of course but good to just get the roadblock down. Anywho I'm very much looking forward to this PA knife.
I'm just glad the term "super steels" never caught on here.
I didnt take exact ones before sending it off.
But it should be something like 230x50,mm
Maybe 3 or. 4mm spine at the handle, distal tapered to the tip.
I might have some more.measurments a page or two back when i got the knife completed.
We could start now.
Glad a bunch of people are getting a chance to try a super steel in this passaround.You are actually tempting me to pickup a coarse diamond stone to try this.
a coarse/fine diamond combo plate never goes out of style. It's a good general tool, to have around for lots of reasons. Even if you don't sharpen on it directly. The flatter the better - off brand crap isn't worth it.
Just please dont try it on this knife
. I'm fine with anyone sharpening it. But i just hope that the people that choose to have some experience sharpening high mc type carbide steels/using diamond abrasive. So the geometry of the knife doesnt end up being too drastically altered to the point the people at the end dont get to properly try the knife, and steel in the state it was. And also just for the people that come next in the passaround to get a properly sharp knife.
As a sharpening note to others: I’ve found overstropping leads to edges that slice paper towels and bounce off tomatoes. I use a balsa strop loaded with 1u diamond and find about 3 strokes per side with light pressure is all thats needed even on monster steels for edge refinement after your finishing stone. If you say go up to 20-30 strokes per side thinking wear resistant steel needs it, the edge suffers. Using just a strop for a touchup without a finishing stone usually isn’t ideal from my experience. I haven’t tried 10V yet so we’ll see but I have some other high carbide steels.
My experience is with a Venev 800 stone which is ~6 micron / 2000ish grit JIS before a strop. Without the strop its not quite sharp/refined enough.
My experience is with a Venev 800 stone which is ~6 micron / 2000ish grit JIS before a strop. Without the strop its not quite sharp/refined enough.
Yeah. There are two things that can happen with stropping. If someone runs into issues. They either had their angle too high, or at the right angle but used too much pressure. Which causes the apex to round.
Or they created a wire edge. Which will be sharp initially, but dulls nearly instantly when actually cutting.
The first one, to fix it. Technique needs to he adjusted.
The second one. Either avoid stropping too much, or follow the strop with another burr removal method like using an unloaded strop.
Or they created a wire edge. Which will be sharp initially, but dulls nearly instantly when actually cutting.
The first one, to fix it. Technique needs to he adjusted.
The second one. Either avoid stropping too much, or follow the strop with another burr removal method like using an unloaded strop.
Interesting. We strop a lot more than "three strokes per side" and yet we get excellent results and insane sharpness levels, especially on K390.
The 3 strokes thing isn't necessarily true.
Really the issues people can see have less to do with the number of strokes, and more to do with how they are doing them.
