Do I need to sharpen longer??

[guytolover457]

I have a wustapof ikon and sankatuo zwilling classic and I have one two double sided whetstones 1 is 800 1000 or 2000 and the second one is 3000 to 8000 grit both are synthetic ( Don't hate on me for that). Anyway when I sharpen my knifes I can get them really sharp on the 3000 but when I turn over to the 8000 and sharpen them on it it seems they get duller and I want to know if I need to sharpen them longer on the 8000 girt or is it my technique

 

[guytolover457]

I have a wustapof ikon and sankatuo zwilling classic and I have one two double sided whetstones 1 is 800 1000 or 2000 and the second one is 3000 to 8000 grit both are synthetic ( Don't hate on me for that). Anyway when I sharpen my knifes I can get them really sharp on the 3000 but when I turn over to the 8000 and sharpen them on it it seems they get duller and I want to know if I need to sharpen them longer on the 8000 girt or is it my technique

Note: I can't really feel they burr when Sharpening on the 8000 but can on the 3000 also my technique is one I followed on YouTube it is basically just up and down.i start at the heel up and down moment on the whetstone until I feel the burr then I move up and repeat.

 

[Dan-]

When the turtle withdraws its head, even the bull finds no target. In other words, don’t use the 8k side.

 

[KasumiJLA]

You don't need to feel a burr with the 3k and above, the goal here is to refine your 1k edge. 8k won't make your knife less sharp, it's supposed to be the opposite. But you will lose your bite and tooth by going that far with your finishing stone which is a bad thing for most of us here. At 8k your knife will need more maintenance and it will lose its edge very quickly. If you sharpen knives for customers, I would avoid going higher than 3k.

I alway finish european knives at 1k and Japanese knives at 3k. Some exceptions for a yanagiba/sujihiki which I finish on a 5k~8k stone. The most important thing here is the technique. The result you have on your 1k stone must be impeccable and you must be able to shave without problems. Afterwards, adapt your work according to the steel and the use of the knife.

There's nothing wrong to play with finer grit finish and it's fun! But I would focus on your technique first because that's the most important thing.

 

[Rangen]

A 3K/8K combo sounds suspiciously like one of those cheap Chinese combo stones. Lots of people have reported poor results on those, and especially on the 8K side, which, to all indications, is not really an 8K.

"It is a poor workman who blames his tools" is a saying, but there is a limit, as when you try to cut a tree down with a spoon.

 

[guytolover457]

You don't need to feel a burr with the 3k and above, the goal here is to refine your 1k edge. 8k won't make your knife less sharp, it's supposed to be the opposite. But you will lose your bite and tooth by going that far with your finishing stone which is a bad thing for most of us here. At 8k your knife will need more maintenance and it will lose its edge very quickly. If you sharpen knives for customers, I would avoid going higher than 3k.

I alway finish european knives at 1k and Japanese knives at 3k. Some exceptions for a yanagiba/sujihiki which I finish on a 5k~8k stone. The most important thing here is the technique. The result you have on your 1k stone must be impeccable and you must be able to shave without problems. Afterwards, adapt your work according to the steel and the use of the knife.

There's nothing wrong to play with fighter grit finish and it's fun! But I would focus on your technique first because that's the most important thing.

Ohhh so how do you know when sharpening with a 3k or 8k to stop?

 

[stringer]

Ohhh so how do you know when sharpening with a 3k or 8k to stop?

Common tests for sharpness in order of difficulty:
Cardboard
Copy paper
Tomato skin
Paper towel
Cigarette paper
Tissue paper
Shaving hairs
Splitting hairs
Popping hairs
Cleanly cutting hair

All this is possible off of a 1k stone. A 3k or 8k is only useful if it improves what you can do off of the 1k stone. For me, this is usually only a couple of swipes.

 

[nutmeg]

I have a wustapof ikon and sankatuo zwilling classic and I have one two double sided whetstones 1 is 800 1000 or 2000 and the second one is 3000 to 8000 grit both are synthetic ( Don't hate on me for that). Anyway when I sharpen my knifes I can get them really sharp on the 3000 but when I turn over to the 8000 and sharpen them on it it seems they get duller and I want to know if I need to sharpen them longer on the 8000 girt or is it my technique

nostalgic.. The 3k/8k synth stone from Zwilling was my very first stone!
It erases scratches pretty well and gives a nice mirror like blade.
I am afraid 1 or 2K should be more efficient for cutting food on Zwilling blades.

 

[guytolover457]

nostalgic.. The 3k/8k synth stone from Zwilling was my very first stone!
It erases scratches pretty well and gives a nice mirror like blade.
I am afraid 1 or 2K should be more efficient for cutting food on Zwilling blades.

Thank you for this tip very helpful. Also love the stone is nice and big so doesn't take to long to sharp 9 inch + knifes

 

[guytolover457]

Common tests for sharpness in order of difficulty:
Cardboard
Copy paper
Tomato skin
Paper towel
Cigarette paper
Tissue paper
Shaving hairs
Splitting hairs
Popping hairs
Cleanly cutting hair

All this is possible off of a 1k stone. A 3k or 8k is only useful if it improves what you can do off of the 1k stone. For me, this is usually only a couple of swipes.

What so cardboard is easy or hard? I thought it would be much harder to cut through then tissue paper or cigarette paper?

 

[stringer]

What so cardboard is easy or hard? I thought it would be much harder to cut through then tissue paper or cigarette paper?

Cardboard is easiest.
Cutting human hairs is the most difficult

 

[Nemo]

I would contend that for this kind of soft, fairly coarse grained steel, maybe you need to sharpen shorter.

What I mean by this is that this kind of steel won't take a high grit well and high grit finishes may actually degrade the edge.

I usually sharpen these knives on a Chosera 400 (approx JIS 600) then complete the deburring on 1K (approx JIS 1500). I usually get a worse edge if I progress to Chosera 3K or 5K.

Interestingly, however, I can get a really quite good edge off of Chosera 400 then Belgian Blue (which is probably 6000ish I guess). But this has a completely different type of abrasive (large garnet spheres) which interact with the steel differently.

 

[guytolover457]

I would contend that for this kind of soft, fairly coarse grained steel, maybe you need to sharpen shorter.

What I mean by this is that this kind of steel won't take a high grit well and high grit finishes may actually degrade the edge.

I usually sharpen these knives on a Chosera 400 (approx JIS 600) then complete the deburring on 1K (approx JIS 1500). I usually get a worse edge if I progress to Chosera 3K or 5K.

Interestingly, however, I can get a really quite good edge off of Chosera 400 then Belgian Blue (which is probably 6000ish I guess). But this has a completely different type of abrasive (large garnet spheres) which interact with the steel differently.

Interesting for me 3k grit is the best I think I can go with my knifes they are just at the point at being razor sharp. Thank you this was every interesting to read.

 

[Redwax]

Interesting for me 3k grit is the best I think I can go with my knifes they are just at the point at being razor sharp. Thank you this was every interesting to read.

There are a lot of differing opinions about this. Just experiment and see what you like best. I have a couple of Wusthofs and prefer to finish on the 3K Chosera for a good balance between toothy for cutting peppers and tomatoes etc. and refined for push cutting through other foods. I haven't experienced edge degradation at this level of refinement, although I have to say I haven't tried anything beyond 3K for these knives.

Having said this, finishing at a lower grit may suit your needs as long as you can deburr properly. A lot of people prefer this finish.

 

[Benuser]

I would contend that for this kind of soft, fairly coarse grained steel, maybe you need to sharpen shorter.

What I mean by this is that this kind of steel won't take a high grit well and high grit finishes may actually degrade the edge.

I usually sharpen these knives on a Chosera 400 (approx JIS 600) then complete the deburring on 1K (approx JIS 1500). I usually get a worse edge if I progress to Chosera 3K or 5K.

Interestingly, however, I can get a really quite good edge off of Chosera 400 then Belgian Blue (which is probably 6000ish I guess). But this has a completely different type of abrasive (large garnet spheres) which interact with the steel differently.

Problem with German soft stainless steel as used by Wüsthoff and Zwilling is, it hardly takes and certainly doesn't hold a polished edge. Has to do with the steel's structure. Relatively big carbides in a soft matrix. Fine stones do abrade the matrix but hardly the carbides. So, what is supposed to hold the carbides in place gets even more weakened.

Have given my Burgvogel a high polish with Belgian Blue. A fantastic looking edge. It literally crumbled at first use. Carbides breaking out of the matrix.

I use with these knives a Shapton Glass 500 for the major part, and for the last deburring a Naniwa Diamond 1k, which is quite a bit coarser than it mentions. Be aware that diamond doesn't get finer during the session like other abrasives do. The end result is hardly finer than with a Chosera 400 — say JIS 600. Not far from what a Shapton 1k would deliver — this just to add to the confusion. I certainly don't mean one should use a diamond stone with this steel: I just have it laying around and find it convenient for deburring, as the diamond particles catch burrs so nicely.

I do understand why Zwilling sells fine stones: makes sense with their Diplôme series, made of AEB-L. But certainly not with Krupp's 4116, or as some makers put it X50CrMoV15 — certainly to impress the customers.

Going above a certain grit makes no sense at all. Keep it — relatively — coarse, and accept that these knives never get a fine and polished edge. They are meant to be tough and so they are — they stand alot of abuse.

The same steel structure limits the keeness an edge should be given. I'm familiar with Wüsthof's factory edges, and they sharpen with a straight bevel of 13°. No way this steel can hold it. It even hardly takes it, as deburring at that angle is simply impossible. Even in factory, as I've experienced, with wire edges all along the blade. Point is, Wüsthoff has automated its production, and chosen for these edges for easy production and impressive sharpness out of the box, even when it will rapidly fail.

Better look at the way Wüsthoff produced its edge when the blades where sharpened by hand. They got a convex edge, ending at at least 18-20° per side.

For a refined edge though look elsewhere. The simplest carbon steel knive will do. Robert Herder in Solingen has a lot of them.

 

[Redwax]

Problem with German soft stainless steel as used by Wüsthoff and Zwilling is, it hardly takes and certainly doesn't hold a polished edge. Has to do with the steel's structure. Relatively big carbides in a soft matrix. Fine stones do abrade the matrix but hardly the carbides. So, what is supposed to hold the carbides in place gets even more weakened.

Have given my Burgvogel a high polish with Belgian Blue. A fantastic looking edge. It literally crumbled at first use. Carbides breaking out of the matrix.

I use with these knives a Shapton Glass 500 for the major part, and for the last deburring a Naniwa Diamond 1k, which is quite a bit coarser than it mentions. Be aware that diamond doesn't get finer during the session like other abrasives do. The end result is hardly finer than with a Chosera 400 — say JIS 600. Not far from what a Shapton 1k would deliver — this just to add to the confusion. I certainly don't mean one should use a diamond stone with this steel: I just have it laying around and find it convenient for deburring, as the diamond particles catch burrs so nicely.

I do understand why Zwilling sells fine stones: makes sense with their Diplôme series, made of AEB-L. But certainly not with Krupp's 4116, or as some makers put it X50CrMoV15 — certainly to impress the customers.

Going above a certain grit makes no sense at all. Keep it — relatively — coarse, and accept that these knives never get a fine and polished edge. They are meant to be tough and so they are — they stand alot of abuse.

The same steel structure limits the keeness an edge should be given. I'm familiar with Wüsthof's factory edges, and they sharpen with a straight bevel of 13°. No way this steel can hold it. It even hardly takes it, as deburring at that angle is simply impossible. Even in factory, as I've experienced, with wire edges all along the blade. Point is, Wüsthoff has automated its production, and chosen for these edges for easy production and impressive sharpness out of the box, even when it will rapidly fail.

Better look at the way Wüsthoff produced its edge when the blades where sharpened by hand. They got a convex edge, ending at at least 18-20° per side.

For a refined edge though look elsewhere. The simplest carbon steel knive will do. Robert Herder in Solingen has a lot of them.

In your experience, what level of polish causes the immediate crumbling of the edge? What stones do you think are the maximum grit before you get an unusable edge?

I probably sharpen at 15-17 degrees each side give or take with all of my knives and never had any issue with my Wusthof's.

I'm not doubting your experience, but it seems very different to mine for some reason. It almost makes me think it is a deburring issue, but I feel like you are too experienced a sharpener for that to be the case.

 

[Benuser]

The immediate crumbling was with a Burgvogel, known in America as Messermeister, the only 4116 I still own. I don't experiment with the Wüsthof I sharpen for others. I had used a Belgian Blue I use for touching up all other knives, from C75 to AS, but more interesting, also successfully with 440C, well known for its large carbides.
The Burgvogel has a 56Rc hardness.
A Belgian Blue delivers from about 4k.

With my own Wüsthoffs I never went as far or experienced such an immediate effect. Had the best results with the Chosera 400 (JIS 600) and last deburring on a Chosera 800 (JIS 1200).

Going two steps further, by full sharpening on a Chosera 2k, with its aggressive start but ending at JIS 3k, delivered nice edges, fully deburred, but with a clearly lower edge retention than with the other progression. Corresponding to what is to be expected from a fundamentally unstable edge.

This was with a recent Wüsthoff @58Rc. I've noticed that when damage occurs — one of my friends has a rather heavy hand — I see with a loupe crumbling around the nick. Which makes me to ask, whether you perhaps have older Wüsthoffs, kept softer and provided with a hand-sharpened edge.

With the information I got so far, going beyond 1.5k is no good idea. Would like to hear which progression you're using. I'm not in the situation to find it out, but were curious whether the 58-Wüsthoffs hold well a Shapton Pro 2k edge.

 

[Redwax]

The immediate crumbling was with a Burgvogel, known in America as Messermeister, the only 4116 I still own. I don't experiment with the Wüsthof I sharpen for others. I had used a Belgian Blue I use for touching up all other knives, from C75 to AS, but more interesting, also successfully with 440C, well known for its large carbides.
The Burgvogel has a 56Rc hardness.
A Belgian Blue delivers from about 4k.

With my own Wüsthoffs I never went as far or experienced such an immediate effect. Had the best results with the Chosera 400 (JIS 600) and last deburring on a Chosera 800 (JIS 1200).

Going two steps further, by full sharpening on a Chosera 2k, with its aggressive start but ending at JIS 3k, delivered nice edges, fully deburred, but with a clearly lower edge retention than with the other progression. Corresponding to what is to be expected from a fundamentally unstable edge.

This was with a recent Wüsthoff @58Rc. I've noticed that when damage occurs — one of my friends has a rather heavy hand — I see with a loupe crumbling around the nick. Which makes me to ask, whether you perhaps have older Wüsthoffs, kept softer and provided with a hand-sharpened edge.

With the information I got so far, going beyond 1.5k is no good idea. Would like to hear which progression you're using. I'm not in the situation to find it out, but were curious whether the 58-Wüsthoffs hold well a Shapton Pro 2k edge.

I have seen results of tests with 4116 at 55-56 HRC which exhibited carbide breakage after machine buffing. None of the tests from memory tested hand sharpening on finer stones. I doubt hand sharpening would cause these breakages, but I'm speculating. 58 HRC I would assume would hold up better in theory.

Interesting to read and think about heavy-handedness. I'm a fairly sympathetic knife user; ie. I'm more conscientious of the potential for edge damage. I wish my lovely partner was more like me, but alas she manages to butcher the edge of every knife she uses bless her. She doesn't tend to use my Wusthof's

I've tried all sorts of edges on the Wusthof's. These days I normally sharpen on a King Neo 800 and finish on the Chosera 3K or just do a touch up on the 3K only. In the past I've tried finishing on the Chosera 400 or King Neo and they work well also but I just find the 3K a better all around edge. I would say edge retention is about the same, albeit different character across the life of the edge depending on the finish.

The two Wusthof's(Classic) I have are a 200mm carving knife shaped like a petty/sujihike and a 120mm petty/utility that I inherited from my grandmother that are perhaps 20 or 30 years old at a guess. So I guess by nature it is a gentler type of cutting. To give you an idea, I sharpened the carving knife a couple weeks ago and have thinly sliced about 3 kg of kangaroo meat for making jerky and it still easily slices through tomatoes now after being finished on the 3K Chosera. It is a very nice edge.

I recently bought the Shapton Pro 2K and sharpened most of my users to test but not the Wusthof as it was still sharp. For what I do, I'm sure it would hold up just as well if not better.

I will say, Wusthof's are nice enough knives but I wouldn't buy one for the price they are sold. There is better value out there.

 

[Benuser]

Just remembered I've a stainless EDC, 10cm long blade, by Robert Herder, in 4116 @57-58Rc. Tried a full sharpening on both Chosera 3k and SP2k. With the Chosera deburring took a huge time, and never got really smooth edges, when feeling with my nail along it on both sides. Even with a far more conservative edge. I could see with a simple loupe (10x) a fray on some places.
As I expected, the SP2k being so easy at deburring, it went a bit easier, all being relative. Still not the smooth edge I'm looking for, but better than with the Chosera.

My trick for recognising the last burr remnants is by cutting through a medication sachet. It started quite well — if any burr is left, it's pushed to one side where you can feel it. From that moment on, the knife doesn't cut straight anymore. You get an immediate result. Now, after making some fifteen cuts, a burr appeared. I now understand the use of the finest steel rod by German cooks.

What we are trying here, is putting a closed edge — in Roman Landes' terminology — on an unstable steel.

I guess I will stay with a less polished edge.

 

[Redwax]

As I expected, the SP2k being so easy at deburring, it went a bit easier, all being relative. Still not the smooth edge I'm looking for, but better than with the Chosera.

That is surprising to hear. The most notable things that I found with the SP2K compared to the Chosera 3K was that deburring was considerably trickier for me and more time consuming and it was more chalky/sticky feeling. I like the finish on both though. Maybe I still haven't removed the outer crust on the Shapton although I did dress it briefly with an Atoma before I used it.

The Chosera for me is an excellent stone to deburr on.

I think the best advise to anyone is just experiment with different edges and decide for yourself what you like better. Everyone is different in how they sharpen and how they use their knife.

 

[Benuser]

That is surprising to hear. The most notable things that I found with the SP2K compared to the Chosera 3K was that deburring was considerably trickier for me and more time consuming and it was more chalky/sticky feeling. I like the finish on both though. Maybe I still haven't removed the outer crust on the Shapton although I did dress it briefly with an Atoma before I used it.

The Chosera for me is an excellent stone to deburr on.

I think the best advise to anyone is just experiment with different edges and decide for yourself what you like better. Everyone is different in how they sharpen and how they use their knife.

Couldn't agree more.

Far from me to make general observations or sweeping statements about different stones in a series, but there's a property of the Choseras 800, 2k and 3k I've observed. It's the most obvious with the 2k: an aggressive start, and its abrasive particles breaking down and eventually offering a much finer and smoother result. Even if the 3k gives a silky feeling from the beginning, the final result is even finer.

When deburring, we're trying to abrade a burr on one side without raising a new one on the other side. I'm not speaking about causing the original one to flip by pressure. It really is a new burr.

The SP2k offers its final grit immediately. On the SP2k the abrasion is smoother and sometimes incompIete. I often have to repeat the stroke because the prior one didn't abrade the burr completely. Much less chance a new burr gets raised.

I generally deburr by short — 1/2" — edge leading strokes, dividing the blade in sections. Depending on its length and curvature five or even more.

I think you're right about the outer crust on your SP2k. Mine is smooth from very first beginning. Far from chalky.

I would like to hear what grit you would attribute to the SP2k. I've heard the most different estimations, between 1.5k and 4.

Anyway, it easily offers a final edge to a lot of my knives, where a further progression doesn't do much. Except for fun, of course.

 

[Redwax]

Couldn't agree more.

Far from me to make general observations or sweeping statements about different stones in a series, but there's a property of the Choseras 800, 2k and 3k I've observed. It's the most obvious with the 2k: an aggressive start, and its abrasive particles breaking down and eventually offering a much finer and smoother result. Even if the 3k gives a silky feeling from the beginning, the final result is even finer.

When deburring, we're trying to abrade a burr on one side without raising a new one on the other side. I'm not speaking about causing the original one to flip by pressure. It really is a new burr.

The SP2k offers its final grit immediately. On the SP2k the abrasion is smoother and sometimes incompIete. I often have to repeat the stroke because the prior one didn't abrade the burr completely. Much less chance a new burr gets raised.

I generally deburr by short — 1/2" — edge leading strokes, dividing the blade in sections. Depending on its length and curvature five or even more.

I think you're right about the outer crust on your SP2k. Mine is smooth from very first beginning. Far from chalky.

I would like to hear what grit you would attribute to the SP2k. I've heard the most different estimations, between 1.5k and 4.

Anyway, it easily offers a final edge to a lot of my knives, where a further progression doesn't do much. Except for fun, of course.

The chalky/sticky sensation I felt was minimal. I was more just comparing the two stones. It's somewhat reminiscent of the King 6K that I used to have but no where near as noticeable. I feel the Chosera has an almost glassy feeling with just a hint of abrasion. The feedback just feels right. My feeling with the Shapton in comparison felt more dull with a very slight stiction between strokes. I guess it depends on technique as well; I use a mainly scrubbing motion at the start and transition to more of a crescent motion (heel to tip/tip to heel) towards the end when I'm lightening the pressure on the stone.

As for grit ratings, the SP2K for me feels about right at 2K. I don't have a huge collection of stones to compare. I feel like it's closer to the Chosera 3K than a King 1K.

I'd happily recommend either for a nice finishing stone if the goal is a nice balance between toothy and refined, although if you can get the Naniwa Pro or Gouken Arata for the same price as the SP I would personally get the Naniwa myself without a doubt.

 

[Benuser]

The fun with the Chosera is in the fantastic feedback, both tactile and auditory. Not just fun: you may hear and feel when the very edge got reached and the bevels are truly meeting.

 

[Nemo]

The fun with the Chosera is in the fantastic feedback, both tactile and auditory. Not just fun: you may hear and feel when the very edge got reached and the bevels are truly meeting.

I can often feel when bits of burr begin to break off on many Chosera stones. Certainly on 400, 1k and 3k.