Yo Prune Juice,
The lad could be my son.
The lad could be my son.
Entire state in lock-down because of a lie
- Thread starter Michi
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Luftmensch
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juice
Doesn't even buy knives
Uuuuuhhh.... Sweden?
They called it "herd immunity". Haiya.
They were pretty clear about it, true.
If everyone is dead already, there is no pandemic! 
juice
Doesn't even buy knives
Depends on which box - Cough -cough - coffin.
Sorry for the unexpectedly dark humour. I have been listening to too much of the band "Poor Mans poison"
I'm a Brit who moved to Australia just over a year ago, and the comparison between the efficacy of the two countries' responses is interesting. [Most of the observations I'm about to make have already been made by others.]
Politically I may not be aligned with the current administration in Australia, but I do think its handling of Covid has been almost faultless... There was an early recognition that lockdowns were the only really effective means to stop the spread of covid until such time as a vaccine became available, and that those lockdowns would incur a significant fiscal expenditure. And there was a decision made that that cost was worth it, in order to save lives. Financial stimulus freed the hands of the various state Premiers to act as they thought necessary - the particularly strong and effective response of Dan Andrews in Victoria would not have been possible without it. So as well as credit due to him and Victorians, I also think there is a fair amount of credit due to the federal government.
In comparison with the UK* the government response here in Aus was considerably more responsible, consistent, and involved less political gamesmanship (there was some, but much less). In the UK the response was muddled and changing from the start, there was the impression that the government were constantly trying to do as little as possible, and this spilled over to a reaction from the public that often complied with the letter, though not the spirit, of the law. The public's response in Australia has been marked in comparison, and I genuinely believe is a result of a mindset difference in regards to community responsibility**.
There are obviously other physical factors in play as well; the ability of states to shut borders, ease of monitoring international borders, population density, differences in social housing, and differing reliance on public transport, have all played a significant part in the contrasting outcomes.
But overwhelmingly I think the single most important enabling factor was early, grown-up, decisive, action and message from central government.
* I'm not going to pass comment on the US, as I know relatively few people there, and little about the autonomy of states in regards to regulations.
** I do not mean to be critical of the large majority of British people here. But as the old cliche goes - in situations like this it only takes a few people to ruin it for everybody else.
Politically I may not be aligned with the current administration in Australia, but I do think its handling of Covid has been almost faultless... There was an early recognition that lockdowns were the only really effective means to stop the spread of covid until such time as a vaccine became available, and that those lockdowns would incur a significant fiscal expenditure. And there was a decision made that that cost was worth it, in order to save lives. Financial stimulus freed the hands of the various state Premiers to act as they thought necessary - the particularly strong and effective response of Dan Andrews in Victoria would not have been possible without it. So as well as credit due to him and Victorians, I also think there is a fair amount of credit due to the federal government.
In comparison with the UK* the government response here in Aus was considerably more responsible, consistent, and involved less political gamesmanship (there was some, but much less). In the UK the response was muddled and changing from the start, there was the impression that the government were constantly trying to do as little as possible, and this spilled over to a reaction from the public that often complied with the letter, though not the spirit, of the law. The public's response in Australia has been marked in comparison, and I genuinely believe is a result of a mindset difference in regards to community responsibility**.
There are obviously other physical factors in play as well; the ability of states to shut borders, ease of monitoring international borders, population density, differences in social housing, and differing reliance on public transport, have all played a significant part in the contrasting outcomes.
But overwhelmingly I think the single most important enabling factor was early, grown-up, decisive, action and message from central government.
* I'm not going to pass comment on the US, as I know relatively few people there, and little about the autonomy of states in regards to regulations.
** I do not mean to be critical of the large majority of British people here. But as the old cliche goes - in situations like this it only takes a few people to ruin it for everybody else.
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Having said that, as the Melbourne outbreak and now the current Sydney outbreak have demonstrated, it's very easy and definitely still possible for things to get out of hand very quickly. Then it takes a huge effort to get the virus under control again, assumimg that you even can.
So I guess we'd better not count our chooks until they hatch.
So I guess we'd better not count our chooks until they hatch.
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juice
Doesn't even buy knives
Exactly this.
My business partner was diagnosed this past week, along with his wife. He had two past scares. He is a smart person, and he has seen people get very sick and an employee of a company we work with died from it a few months back. Yet my business partner has continued to downplay the dangers/ hazards. He and his family spend the Christmas weekend in a vacation house with another family. Both have multiple kids ranging from teens to early 30s. At least 4 of them are sick now. It has nothing to do with 'leadership' -- it's a refusal to make many concessions since 'not that many people overall get it, and most have very little -- if any -- symptoms'. Of course they all have mild cases, so this will just reaffirm his belief that it is all overblown.
He's effin' lucky, as he got a bad infection a few years back that almost killed him, and damaged his heart. But that still has not been enough for him to allow his life to be changed much by the virus.
He's effin' lucky, as he got a bad infection a few years back that almost killed him, and damaged his heart. But that still has not been enough for him to allow his life to be changed much by the virus.
Michi
I dislike attempts to rewrite history
The case fatality rate is indeed not that large. For the US, overall case fatality rate is 1.7%. And that includes a lot of people who are in high-risk groups (advanced age, diabetes, cardiovascular conditions, etc). So, if I am young and healthy and contract the virus, my chances of coming out alive are quite good.
Not that this is any consolation to the people who are in a high-risk group and whom I might unknowingly infect. (If I'm over 75, my chances of dying are 220 times higher than of someone under 30.) Nor is it any consolation when one considers the economic damage the virus ends up causing. And some people, even though they survive the virus, end up with permanent problems, including quite serious ones, such as psychosis from brain damage.
Down-playing the virus is not a good idea, IMO. Looking at Europe, South America, and the US and seeing the harm caused by the virus makes this abundantly clear. To me, the notion of social responsibility plays quite strongly into this discussion. But that is an individual choice, of course.
Not that this is any consolation to the people who are in a high-risk group and whom I might unknowingly infect. (If I'm over 75, my chances of dying are 220 times higher than of someone under 30.) Nor is it any consolation when one considers the economic damage the virus ends up causing. And some people, even though they survive the virus, end up with permanent problems, including quite serious ones, such as psychosis from brain damage.
Down-playing the virus is not a good idea, IMO. Looking at Europe, South America, and the US and seeing the harm caused by the virus makes this abundantly clear. To me, the notion of social responsibility plays quite strongly into this discussion. But that is an individual choice, of course.
Luftmensch
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For those following the thread. If you aren't reading international news... and I wouldn't blame you... Sydney has indications of another wave. Increasing local transmission is spread throughout the greater region. Our state (NSW) premier has equivocated on doing anything meaningful early. We had signs before Christmas. I suppose the government wanted to "keep the state open" and didnt want to ruin Christmas and New Years.
Fortunately for us, it is clear that even our right-leaning governments are sensible enough to act when absolutely required. It just takes them longer to do so and the response is weaker. Will we get the virus under control again? Yes - I highly expect we will.
The problem is that New-South-Welshmen had to watch our leaders explain rules that seemed to change every other day, with exceptions that were confusing or made little sense. Why is the Northern Beaches effectively locked down while the SCG gets to play cricket?? All the while the leadership have dragged their feet on "free" measures like mask wearing.
No... we will get this under control but if we have a second wave or a long period of restrictions it is because they chose not to act early. The cost is more sick people. Potentially more deaths. And ironically for them, worse economic outcomes due to longer restrictions.
[Puts mod hat on]
Just a reminder to please keep the politics out of this thread as much as possible. By all means talk about events and policies (and their effects) but avoid calling names and attributing blame to a particular political side, even if you are certain that it's justified. I'm certain someone else will be certain that it isn't justified and I'm pretty sure that you are not going to convince them here.
There is apparently a virtual space called Twitter where you can fight those wars. Have at it over there.
We have done an OK job keeping this thread sensible up until now, given the contensiousness of the topic. Lets not go astray now.
[Takes mod hat off]
Just a reminder to please keep the politics out of this thread as much as possible. By all means talk about events and policies (and their effects) but avoid calling names and attributing blame to a particular political side, even if you are certain that it's justified. I'm certain someone else will be certain that it isn't justified and I'm pretty sure that you are not going to convince them here.
There is apparently a virtual space called Twitter where you can fight those wars. Have at it over there.
We have done an OK job keeping this thread sensible up until now, given the contensiousness of the topic. Lets not go astray now.
[Takes mod hat off]
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The cricket decision also baffles me. I do hope that it's not the innaugural Superspreading Test Match.
I also find the reluctance to mandate masks in NSW difficult to understand. I suspect that there is a decent chance that they would have limited the latest bottleshop cluster where 2000 odd people were exposed.
The NSW Govt seems supremely confident in NSW Health's ability to track and isolate to close the cluster down. I hope that they are correct, although I worry that they they are playing with fire. As you say, the economic, social and health consequences if they misjudge would make Adelaide's 3 day lockdown look like a walk in the park.
I also find it surprising that anyone from Sydney can come out to regional NSW. No "Ring of Air (ahem Steel)" like they had in Melbourne.
Luftmensch
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Apologies.
I am aware of the rules. I do flirt with the boundaries on this one - perhaps more than i should! I try to be fair and offer level criticism/praise to both sides. That said I cant help but infuse that with the tone of of my political views.
I appreciate the extra flexibility the @mods have provided in this corner of KKF
. All in all it has been remarkably civilised Where I live in Canada we are not allowed to have any visitors at your personal residence. Everything is closed except for stores that sell essential goods. Our hospitals were (maybe still are?) pretty full but the daily case numbers are coming down. The "lockdowns" that were imposed here seem to have worked at slowing the spread but as everyone knows the issue is that you can not keep everything closed forever and once you open the faucet it pours.
I must also say I am not for/against lockdowns. I am sorry to anyone and everyone that has lost someone or has been impacted negatively by this and I am in no way educated on viruses etc, I am just sharing the conditions we are told to live under and I do as I am told.
I must also say I am not for/against lockdowns. I am sorry to anyone and everyone that has lost someone or has been impacted negatively by this and I am in no way educated on viruses etc, I am just sharing the conditions we are told to live under and I do as I am told.
I was in Sydney mid November and there was certainly more evidence there that we were in the midst of a global pandemic. I'd barely seen anyone in Adelaide wearing a mask but lots in Sydney, and the checking in system was being taken far more seriously in bars/shops/restaurants. SA has since then brought the latter in, but barely anywhere enforces it / makes sure people have done so.
So fingers crossed for NSW. I fear that if we had a similar outbreak in SA that people here would have become so used to not really having any cases here, that there'd be a degree of complacency that people in NSW and VIC are less likely to have.
I'm hearing you. Still very few people wearing masks in my neck of the woods. Unless I cross over to Victoria. Then almost everyone is.
This virus finds every chink in the armour. Complacency does seem to be its good friend.
