Ever get mildly disappointed by a knife?

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Runner_up said:
Characteristics of a "good" heat treatment would include:
- Ease of sharpening
- The ability to hold an edge for a long time
- Stable edge (should be able to be thin, without excessive chipping)

The characteristics of a "bad" heat treatment would include:
- Well, the opposite.
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šŸ¤£šŸ˜‚ Thank you for this. this just simplified so many threads on HT that left me more confused than when I started, due to excessive & lengthy chatter.
 
Runner_up said:
Characteristics of a "good" heat treatment would include:
- Ease of sharpening
- The ability to hold an edge for a long time
- Stable edge (should be able to be thin, without excessive chipping)

The characteristics of a "bad" heat treatment would include:
- Well, the opposite.

Once you start to sharpen many knives, by many blacksmiths, in many different steels you will begin to also notice more subtle things such as steel feedback on whetstones, and ease of de-burring.

So if a blade isn't easy/ feel good to sharpen, is excessively difficult to de-burr, won't take a keen edge, or hold it - then you have a blade with poor heat treatment. (or problems in your sharpening technique)

This is, of course, in reference to simple carbon steels that we see in most Japanese knives. There are PM steels that are definitely more difficult to sharpen and de-burr, and don't feel as nice or give as good feedback on whetstones. But they certainly will hold an edge for a very long time.
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Adding to the excessive and lengthy chatter.

I agree on a lot of fronts but I worry about exclaiming from experience what knife/maker possesses a good heat treat or not. It's a pretty classic slippery slope of expressing one's opinions on the internet. Ease of sharpening, edge retention, and edge stability can also be drastically affected by the user: What condition the knife you have is in currently, flatness of the stone, sharpening technique/where you stop/what you've actually accomplished, knife skills (pressure, consistency, choosing the right knife for a task, how many cardboard boxes you open), personal perception of 'good' edge retention, cutting boards, etc. I think I'm middle of the road at sharpening, probably above middle in knife skills. FWIW I think I've sharpened >2000 knives (not unique knives, but # of reps). Sometimes early on in the process I got lucky and got a good result, but often I just sucked at it and made it perhaps better than bad, occasionally worse. I worry that folks start talking amongst themselves on a public platform that X maker has a better/worse/good/crap heat treat than X maker when we're not equipped to make that call and potentially F with people's livelihoods. That said, say what you want to say obviously but some possible food for thought.
 
Itā€™s true that many statements on here could be made with more humility. I try to use subjective phrasing like ā€œi disliked the feel of sharpening xxx, and had problems getting it sharpā€ instead of making statements like ā€œthe HT is crapā€. But probably Iā€™ve slipped up once or twice. I think the feel on the stones and the ease of sharpening is something you can really feel quickly, though. I mean, I havenā€™t sharpened 2000 times quite yet (once a day for almost 6 years?), but I can tell when a burr is stubborn or when a knife feels totally amazing on the stones.
 
JBroida said:
Its also the name of an area in Sanjo near where the knives come from... right near higashisanjo
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I feel like an idiot. Thanks Jon, that's good to know. You just increased the perceived value of my knife šŸ˜› I still think 'Frog' is dumb, except maybe from a marketing perspective. Like how retailers make their generic brands look worse to drive consumers towards more expensive name brands. Ok, so maybe it's actually genius too.

And since some have overlooked 'mildly' in the title, I'll add - handles. I've had a few great knives I've sold because the handle started to bug me over time: a Herder with a slight gap between handle and blade, every yo-handled knife that wasn't a Misono, and both wa pettys I've owned. The blades were so awesome I wanted to like them (Konosuke and Y. Tanaka), but for me wa handles are just too clunky on narrow knives. I think I've finally learned my lesson.
 
pleue said:
Adding to the excessive and lengthy chatter.

I agree on a lot of fronts but I worry about exclaiming from experience what knife/maker possesses a good heat treat or not. It's a pretty classic slippery slope of expressing one's opinions on the internet. Ease of sharpening, edge retention, and edge stability can also be drastically affected by the user: What condition the knife you have is in currently, flatness of the stone, sharpening technique/where you stop/what you've actually accomplished, knife skills (pressure, consistency, choosing the right knife for a task, how many cardboard boxes you open), personal perception of 'good' edge retention, cutting boards, etc. I think I'm middle of the road at sharpening, probably above middle in knife skills. FWIW I think I've sharpened >2000 knives (not unique knives, but # of reps). Sometimes early on in the process I got lucky and got a good result, but often I just sucked at it and made it perhaps better than bad, occasionally worse. I worry that folks start talking amongst themselves on a public platform that X maker has a better/worse/good/crap heat treat than X maker when we're not equipped to make that call and potentially F with people's livelihoods. That said, say what you want to say obviously but some possible food for thought.
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You are correct in that my comment makes certain assumptions. For example that the reader is proficient in both knife skills and maintenance. That being said - isn't the point of this public platform for end users to discuss their experiences? I would surmise there are a lot of folks here who write reviews about grinds/performance/finishing who are not "equipped to make that call" - and yet the input is still (mostly) valued.

Considering the demand for Mazaki knives, glowing praise for his products, and the (to me) insane prices for his damascus knives - I hardly doubt that me saying I have an older knife from him with an off heat treatment will "F with his livelihood".
 
Runner_up said:
You are correct in that my comment makes certain assumptions. For example that the reader is proficient in both knife skills and maintenance. That being said - isn't the point of this public platform for end users to discuss their experiences? I would surmise there are a lot of folks here who write reviews about grinds/performance/finishing who are not "equipped to make that call" - and yet the input is still (mostly) valued.

Considering the demand for Mazaki knives, glowing praise for his products, and the (to me) insane prices for his damascus knives - I hardly doubt that me saying I have an older knife from him with an off heat treatment will "F with his livelihood".
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Opinions on heat treat are tricky, because unlike other attributes of the knife heat treat canā€™t be seen or really known unless the maker tells you exactly what he did. Even hardness that we like to talk about doesnā€™t tell you everything because you can get to the same number different ways and for example have different toughness at the same hardness with the same steel. Feeling on the stones tells us something, but depends on which stones and what the users perspective is. Same for edge holding, what are you comparing to? Is the geometry the same and is the difference really the heat treat or geometry. Some people donā€™t like glassy feel on the stones of very hard steels, but then complain that well feeling on the stones knives donā€™t hold the edge very well or that hard knives chip or any other complaints about the heat treat, when geometry or something else could be the issue.

in any case, all opinions are welcomed, this is why we are here and all of it is just opinions. Just keep in mind that quality of the heat treat might be one of the most difficult attributes to discuss or determine.
 
ian said:
Iā€™ve never loved the feel of sharpening a Mazaki


I donā€™t know anyone whoā€™s ever complained about that. šŸ™„šŸ¤„
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Which mazaki, there are so many generations and versions that it is almost like talking about different smiths. Iā€™ve tried two the earlier cleancut kasumi and the latest from ckc, the knives are so different in everything that if I didnā€™t know better I wouldnā€™t realize they were made by the same guy.
 
Barmoley said:
Opinions on heat treat are tricky, because unlike other attributes of the knife heat treat canā€™t be seen or really known unless the maker tells you exactly what he did. Even hardness that we like to talk about doesnā€™t tell you everything because you can get to the same number different ways and for example have different toughness at the same hardness with the same steel. Feeling on the stones tells us something, but depends on which stones and what the users perspective is. Same for edge holding, what are you comparing to? Is the geometry the same and is the difference really the heat treat or geometry. Some people donā€™t like glassy feel on the stones of very hard steels, but then complain that well feeling on the stones knives donā€™t hold the edge very well or that hard knives chip or any other complaints about the heat treat, when geometry or something else could be the issue.

in any case, all opinions are welcomed, this is why we are here and all of it is just opinions. Just keep in mind that quality of the heat treat might be one of the most difficult attributes to discuss or determine.
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This is basically why when commenting on steel nowadays I limit my opinion to how it feels on the board. Some knives just give their own tingle on contact. Probably why so many of us like using vintages so often...I'd make a thread about it if I knew how to word it.
 
Barmoley said:
Which mazaki, there are so many generations and versions that it is almost like talking about different smiths. Iā€™ve tried two the earlier cleancut kasumi and the latest from ckc, the knives are so different in everything that if I didnā€™t know better I wouldnā€™t realize they were made by the same guy.
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Sorry, the thing about Mazaki was just an unfinished sentence that I forgot to delete before posting. I was mainly referring to older (2nd gen?) Mazaki. But I think I just don't like the glassy feeling... the ones I tried got plenty sharp and were not very difficult to deburr. Had the same experience with Munetoshi White #2; great knife, great steel, not my preferred feeling on the stones. Idk what to say, I'm weird.
 
mlau said:
Dear Knife nuts,

Do you ever get mildly disappointed by a kitchen knife?
In my case, it starts out as something minor...then, gets me nuts enough to fix it, or change knives.

Let's see:
Heiji 270 mm gyuto. Great knife. Huge. Scared off most of my family. Larger than my board could handle. Sold it to a happy forumite.
Heiji Santoku. No real complaints. Super sharp. Needs a little babying
Tanaka Santoku (present to a friend)- sharp on the spine. Needed rounding, and handle polishing
Heiji Chukabocho based of Sugimoto 6= Very heavy and square handle. Bigger than I'm used to. Sold it to a happy forumite.
No-name Hong Kong cleaver- great balance and weight. Sorta soft.
Calton custom Chinese cleaver- based off the Hong Kong cleaver. $$$$. Had a slightly square transition of bolster/handle to blade. Needed to round it off.
Messermeister Olivia- wanted to try a "good" German knife. Excellent ergos and blade grind. Sorta disappointingly soft...even compared to the Chinese made stuff that I have.

How about you guys?
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Literally every knife I have ever gotten with maybe one or two exceptions had something I could nitpick about, so yes.
 
ma_sha1 said:
Certain unicorn whoā€™s name shall remain hidden for personal safety. Turned out to be a donkey with an ice cream cone stuck on the forehead.
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_20200907_212653.JPG

But he is a handsome donkey with a icecream cone of pure gold
 
Unicorn or not, I find people are very quick to judge a knife. Cut a carrot, onion, etc., And quickly exclaim that the knife under performs or its not for me. Personal, I like to find out where a knife needs a little/a lot of work, then choose to work on that or move it along. This process takes a fair bit of time, using, analysing, testing, modifying. Some knives, just take awhile to grow on you while some will amaze you off the bat but you find some unfixable quark you cant stand down the road.

Sometimes what it takes for a unicorn to shine, is a bit of rolling in mud, rubbing on something with purple renge, and a final brushing of uchigumori. They can litterally glow from the inside.
_20200907_215100.JPG
 
Takada no Hamono B2 gyuto. OOTB, something about this knife just felt off to me. It was THICC behind the edge and AT the edge. That, in combination with it's incredibly short heel height and relatively lackluster fit and finish, was enough for me to return it without even using it.

Granted, it was from the standard iron-clad line and not the Suiboku or Reika lines, I was still extremely disappointed considering its price.
 
mlau said:
Dear Knife nuts,

Do you ever get mildly disappointed by a kitchen knife?
In my case, it starts out as something minor...then, gets me nuts enough to fix it, or change knives.

Let's see:
Heiji 270 mm gyuto. Great knife. Huge. Scared off most of my family. Larger than my board could handle. Sold it to a happy forumite.
Heiji Santoku. No real complaints. Super sharp. Needs a little babying
Tanaka Santoku (present to a friend)- sharp on the spine. Needed rounding, and handle polishing
Heiji Chukabocho based of Sugimoto 6= Very heavy and square handle. Bigger than I'm used to. Sold it to a happy forumite.
No-name Hong Kong cleaver- great balance and weight. Sorta soft.
Calton custom Chinese cleaver- based off the Hong Kong cleaver. $$$$. Had a slightly square transition of bolster/handle to blade. Needed to round it off.
Messermeister Olivia- wanted to try a "good" German knife. Excellent ergos and blade grind. Sorta disappointingly soft...even compared to the Chinese made stuff that I have.

How about you guys?
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So this is a little off topic, but how do you like/dislike the Heiji 180 Santoku? Thinking of getting one. How is the cutting performance? Would it handle a dense vegetable like a sweet potato?
 
riba said:
I understood:

Would it handle a dense vegetable like a sweet potato?

--> no
.....

You'd rather hear 'yes'?


;)
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No not at all!! I want to hear the truth!!

I woke up, saw a one worded answer , ā€œnoā€ to my 3 questions I asked, and I was like šŸ¤Æ. Why did he only write no? I asked like 3 things, and he didnā€™t specify what he is writing no to. I thought he was writing no to me for posting that question in this thread. guess I over thought it eh. **** happens at 3am lol.
 
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