First Japanese Steel

[AndrewPDX]

I recently travelled to Japan and quickly learned that I knew too little about Japanese steel and high grade knives in general to make a big purchase. We went to Sanjo and visited Tadafusa and Tojiro, plus Koppabashi and Tsukiji in Tokyo. I did buy a 4" Origami from Tojiro because I've never seen anything like it and knew I'd love it as a souvenir even if it turned out to be a terrible knife. Now that I'm back I'm looking for advice on where to start building a forever collection. I live in Oregon and discovered Carter through this forum. The high-grade funayaki or perfect chef's knife are tempting. Up until now I've used a 6" stainless steel chef's knife (made in China, knock off Wustoff). I'm also including the questionnaire to help.

LOCATION
Oregon, USA

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)? Chef's knife and utility knife.

Are you right or left handed? Right.

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle? I've only ever used a Western handle, but would like to try Japanese.

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)? I prefer using shorter knives, 3-5" for utility and 6-8" for chef's.

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no) No.

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife? These are going in my will, I will spend as much as I need to.

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment? Home.

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.) Mostly vegetable slicing and dicing, trimming meat and fish, and some chopping.

What knife, if any, are you replacing? 6" stainless steel chef's knife.

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.) Unknown, maybe point? Four fingers on grip, thumb on spine or side.

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.) Push cut, slice, chop.

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.) Anything would be an improvement. The one plus of my knife is that it's very well-balanced and fits well. It feels like an extension of my hand.

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)? I would be slightly disappointed if it didn't have some sort of design aesthetic or looked cheap. This knife is meant to be used though, so function > looks.

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)? Balance and fit are important, see above.

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)? Flexible, I'm willing to learn to use and care for my knives.

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)? Flexible.


KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.) Yes.

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.) No.

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.) Yes.

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.) Yes.

 

[Andrew]

Hey AndrewPDX, I'm also Andrew and live in Portland!

I'd strongly suggest visiting the Portland Knife House on SE Belmont and Seisuke on NE Alberta (full disclosure, I haven't been to Seisuke yet).

I think you'll hear often that handling knives is one of the best ways to sort out what you might like, and both shops have great selections of many of the brands folks on here obsess about etc. I'd urge you to start with a more modest budget (under 300 maybe?) and try something out vs instantly going for a higher priced option. Best to experiment some before going into the deep end.

 

[JustinP]

Good advice above from @Andrew above. You might also find you like a slightly larger knife better if you handle them. 6 inches is pretty small for a chef's knife.

 

[Michi]

Some observations taken from my own learning curve when I changed to Japanese knives, in the hope that some of this might be useful.

First and foremost, you may need to change your cutting style. "Four fingers on grip, thumb on spine or side." This suggests that, maybe, you are used to cutting with a fair bit of down force. (A lot of people do this, especially if they are using blunt knives.)

A soft-steel knife, such as a Wüsthof or similar, can actually take this. It will blunt, but it won't be damaged. Japanese knives are less forgiving, both because the steels are harder and more brittle, and because they often are ground a lot thinner behind the edge, making the cutting edge more fragile.

While you decide what knife to get, I suggest to change your grip to a pinch grip, and work on your cutting technique to minimise down force and heavy board contact. Basically, learn to cut with the least amount of down force that still gets the job done, and, when cutting thicker items, reduce down force for the last few millimetres of a cut so, when the blade makes contact with the board, it does it gently. (Obviously, that works best with a sharp knife, regardless of steel, and heavier board contact is pretty much unavoidable when chopping.)

Second, you need to make a fundamental choice about steel. You can have something that rusts (carbon steel), or something that doesn't rust or rusts only very slowly (stainless or semi-stainless). There are many pros and cons to each. But, be aware that if you go with a carbon steel, such as white or blue, your knife will begin to rust pretty much the instant you put it down. If you are cutting onions or tomatoes or citrus, and the phone rings, by the time you have finished your conversation, you will find rust spots on the knife if you didn't wipe it down before picking up the phone.

Whether that is acceptable to you is a matter of personal preference. But know that, if you use carbon steel, you have to wipe down the knife each and every time before you put it down (or regularly remove rust stains, patina or no patina).

Third, if you get into Japanese knives, you will have to learn how to sharpen on stones. You can't maintain the edge on hard steels with a steel honing rod. A ceramic rod will work to maintain the edge for a while but, eventually, the knife will need to be sharpened on stones.

You can send the knife to a commercial sharpening service if you don't want to sharpen yourself. However, most run-of-the-mill sharpening services are highly likely to destroy your knife for you. You will need someone with experience with Japanese knives who uses sharpening stones, meaning that sharpening won't be cheap. Pragmatically, in the long run, it's inevitable that you will end up sharpening yourself (at least if you want knives that work well).

Fourth, you need to decide on a grind. You can get different blade geometries. Some optimised to deal with hard work and more down force (that is, thick behind the edge), others optimised to glide through food almost effortlessly (that is, very thin behind the edge). Needless to say, very thin knives are also more fragile. (A lot more fragile, in fact.)

Careless contact with the board, poor cutting technique (movement sideways to the blade), hitting bones or cutting through harder food (such as seeds or pork crackling) will take chips out of the edge (and not necessarily small ones). The harder the steel, the more brittle it gets, so something that is thin and made of really hard steel needs to be used very carefully.

Fifth, you need to choose a profile. Japanese Gyutos have less belly than say, a Wüsthof chef's knife, which can take some getting used to after years of using German-style knives. Either works fine, but they require different cutting styles.

Sixth, think about weight. Most Japanese knives are a lot lighter than German knives of the same size. They feel different, and they require different cutting technique because of that. (70 g of weight difference doesn't sound like much, but a 130 g knife feels very different from a 200 g knife of the same shape.)

Seventh is length. Bigger is not necessarily better. A one-inch increase is a lot on a knife, a two-inch increase is massive. (Compare a 6-inch and an 8-inch chef's knife; they are very different animals.) Keep available bench space in mind. If you have a long knife in a small work area, it quickly becomes an annoyance. It's easy to bump into things and damage the knife, and it's aggravating if you can't put down, pick up, and manoeuvre the knife freely and easily.

My recommendation for someone starting out: Pick something that is not at the extremes.

For a Gyuto, I would go with a profile that has a little more belly than usual, because that will behave more like what you are used to. Something of medium length. 210 mm seems to be a good choice for most people. Not too large to use in a small workspace, but large enough to work well for most tasks.

Go with a middle-of-the-road grind. Not a workhorse, and not a laser. (You'll be amazed at how much better an "average" Japanese knife works than a German one.) For a 210 mm, around 200 g is a good weight. Not as heavy as a German-style knife, so it is more nimble, but still has enough heft get work done.

As far as steel is concerned, for a first knife, I'd consider a stainless clad (rather than mono-steel) knife, with a stainless or semi-stainless core. VG-10 is a good first choice, in my opinion. It has better edge retention than German steel, and is fairly easy to sharpen. Another option are SG-2 and R2 (basically the same steel from different manufacturers). They are harder than VG-10 but still quite chip resistant, and they sharpen fairly easily. Some of the Swedish stainless steels are also very good, with similar characteristics.

If you want to go the carbon route, I'd still get a stainless clad knife. That way, only the exposed bit of the core near the edge can rust, not the whole blade. For carbon, white #1 or #2 and any of the blues are all fine choices. They are easiest to sharpen, too, and you can make them insanely sharp. I wouldn't let the super-sharpness influence the decision though. You can make any German or Japanese knife insanely sharp. But, for kitchen use, extreme sharpness isn't really necessary. You only need very sharp, not insanely sharp. (That's because an insanely sharp knife after five minutes of use will turn into a merely very sharp knife anyway.)

As far as appearance (handle style, Damascus, Kurouchi, or other finish) is concerned, go to town. These are mostly cosmetic and a matter of personal preference, and they all work. Pick something you like; to me, the aesthetics of my knives matter, and I don't care how well a knife performs if I think it's ugly. What's important is how well you like your knife, not how well other people like it.

Michi.

 

[ian]

Re: Michi’s post: all good advice, and +1. However, 200g for a 210mm seems like a pretty heavy knife to me, if it’s wa. Heavier than any of mine, at least...

 

[AndrewPDX]

Wonderful information and advice, thank you! I'm heading to Belmont and Alberta this weekend to start checking things out. I'll report back with some of my favorites.

 

[GoodMagic]

Ok, I’m gonna just recommend something. Get a Tanaka 210, either ginsan or blue core gyuto. They are inexpensive and great performers. They can re-set your frame of reference. Second, get some decent stones. Third take your time, and learn how to sharpen. Good stones will last years. Don’t buy a very expensive knife to start- you need to use it, sharpen it and not be worried about messing it up.

 

[Michi]

However, 200g for a 210mm seems like a pretty heavy knife to me, if it’s wa. Heavier than any of mine, at least...

For someone coming from German knives, something not too light will probably feel more normal and be easier to use.

The weight/size ratio can be huge. For example, a Shun Hiro 210 mm (western handle) weighs 250 g (1.2 g/cm), and a Masamoto KS 210 mm (actual length 220 mm, Wa handle) weighs 135 g (0.61 g/cm). That's a factor of two difference!

I picked 200 g as a ballpark figure for "lighter than a German knife, but heavier than most Japanese ones." My recommendation is to not go too light for a first Gyuto. Maybe draw the line at 180 g or so.

 

[adam92]

Buy any white 2 steel for your 1st knife is fine , easily to sharpen , buy a whetstone/ double side 1000/3000 or 240/1000 for sharpening and repair chips, a stone flatters .

 

[ian]

For someone coming from German knives, something not too light will probably feel more normal and be easier to use.

The weight/size ratio can be huge. For example, a Shun Hiro 210 mm (western handle) weighs 250 g (1.2 g/cm), and a Masamoto KS 210 mm (actual length 220 mm, Wa handle) weighs 135 g (0.61 g/cm). That's a factor of two difference!

I picked 200 g as a ballpark figure for "lighter than a German knife, but heavier than most Japanese ones." My recommendation is to not go too light for a first Gyuto. Maybe draw the line at 180 g or so.

Fair enough, but if it’s wa as the OP requested (and say ho wood or something for the handle) then 200g is going to *feel* pretty heavy because the balance point will be farther forward. Heavier than the 250g shun, perhaps. Anyway, best of luck, OP.

 

[AndrewPDX]

Visited both recommended shops in Portland, here’s what I was drawn to. Overall favorites in order from left to right at each shop. Any knives here to avoid or hands down favorites?

Edit: here are the descriptions

Ryusen HAP 40

Takeshi Saji AO Super

Yoshi Kane SKD


Yoshimi Kato-blue super, 210mm

Katsuhuge Anryu-blue super, 210mm

Takayuki Iwai-blue super, 180mm

Seisuke (house brand)-blue #2, 210mm

 

[ryanjams]

Yoshikane would be my pick of that bunch. True middleweight as Michi recommended, thin behind the edge with a sturdier spine. Skd will be a lot nicer than the hap40 on the stones while learning to sharpen, almost as nice as carbon but offers most of the peace-of-mind of a true stainless. The wide bevel will be a helpful guide when it comes time to thin.

 

[Michi]

I would probably not go for HAP40 as a first knife. As @ryanjams said, it's not easy to sharpen.

I like the Yoshikane, too. The Saji would also be a fine choice, depending on what style of handle you prefer. The Saji will probably be a little heavier; the better choice may well be the one with the weight that matches your preference.

210 mm is a good universal length; in a pinch, you can even use it as a slicer. 180 mm is a little too short for most people's tastes, unless you need to work in a confined space.

 

[frank358fr]

Do not go with HAP40, it is hard to sharpen

 

[AndrewPDX]

Thanks for the feedback. I’ll take another look at the Yoshikane. At the moment it’s between that and the Katsushige Anryu, followed closely by the Yoshimi Kato. Both of those felt really good to hold.

 

[AndrewPDX]

210mm Super Blue - 3 layer clad
Katsushige Anryu

Big thanks for everyone’s input!

 

[Michi]

210mm Super Blue - 3 layer clad
Katsushige Anryu

Great choice! I'm sure you'll be happy with that. Let us know about your experience!

 

[dsk]

is that handle black? if so black on black looks real slick.

 

[dan]

Great choice! Those hammer marks seem very shallow, is that an accurate statement? One of my good pals has an Anryu (Aogami2 not AS though) and it is an absolute pleasure to cut with. I'm sure you'll enjoy it!

 

[AndrewPDX]

Handle is dark on dark, but not black. Not sure if hammer marks are shallow or not. There is a definite texture. I made a stir fry tonight and it was great to work with.