Flipper alert

[stringer]

Yeah, we have a 95 page thread about why flippers are bad and should be called out but all of a sudden it's ok to flip? I don't get it. I understand that ultimately there was no flipping involved but I get your reasoning behind it.

We all agree that some behavior is bad but most is acceptable. We just like to piss and moan at where we draw the line. I find it refreshing compared to some other forums how civil and kind our disagreements are. We are a very tolerant and cosmopolitan crowd if this is among our most vitriolic disputes. Besides the fruity pizza thing of course.

 

[Bico Doce]

So to address an implication here that @Bico Doce is making that we only do the transactions because @OwlWoodworks and his "influence" I'd like to state that for me (who facilitated his last purchase), that is categorically incorrect.

Luke and I had chatted one time in the past as I was local to a knife he wanted (which we passed on doing dealings). An hour before this last knife went up for sale, he messaged me and asked if I'd give it a shot. At that point, my consideration was a) help a member out and b) ensure that my costs were covered and c) ensure that I didn't get stuck with the knife. Luke's history here as a person who deals with high value knives gave me confidence to deal with him and give it a shot. I would do the same for members that I thought had the same level of transaction reliability for that dollar value. I'll admit that list is very short, but there are a few I'd deal with. My choice was not based on what else Luke does or his "influence". When I deal with that amount of money, it's a "logic" transaction more than "heart" transaction.

And in the end, there are lots of knives that move around in similar ways to the way Luke gets his knives. You build up a relationship with someone or show good karma and things happen. I can say that I've been offered several knives the same way in the past and I'm certainly not an influencer. Far from it.

I didn’t mean to imply you personally were doing what you did to gain favor. I have benefited and have helped others in the same way. When you’ve been at it long enough you understand it’s relationships that make it fun on this forum. I apologize.

With that said (and I will die on this hill) Luke isn’t an ordinary member and has absolutely benefitted from being a maker. He himself has admitted to it. To me that influences how I personally view his transactions here.

I’ve bought/sold/chatted with him in the past. My interactions have been nothing but excellent. In retrospect I should have just went to him personally.

 

[esoo]

With that said (and I will die on this hill) Luke isn’t an ordinary member and has absolutely benefitted from being a maker. He himself has admitted to it. To me that influences how I personally view his transactions here.

Maybe I'm just too friggin old and tired, but to me Luke and any other maker here are just another member. I admire his/their work, but they don't end up on a pedestal. But that's how I treat everyone, so

 

[Bico Doce]

Maybe I'm just too friggin old and tired, but to me Luke and any other maker here are just another member. I admire his/their work, but they don't end up on a pedestal. But that's how I treat everyone, so

Fair enough. You're a good dude. If that's how you see it then that's cool

 

[esoo]

Yeah, we have a 95 page thread about why flippers are bad and should be called out but all of a sudden it's ok to flip? I don't get it. I understand that ultimately there was no flipping involved but I get your reasoning behind it.

There is a simple problem - if you are US based and buy from a US retailer, you may have a pretty good idea what someone paid, for those us in the rest of the world, you don't have a clue, so you don't know if I'm "flipping". I've paid up to 40% more than store price to get a blade into my hand (exchange/shipping/taxes/duty/brokerage fees). If I'm trying to recover my cost, which could be more than someone else paid for the same knife, I'm not flipping.

 

[Barmoley]

I happened to run across this take and thought I would respond because without any drama these forums can be a bit dull.

I obviously am the one who called out Luke on his pricing for the River Jump. I thought he was inflating the price which he wasn't and so I apologized. Grade school behavior seems like a stretch here but I will take it with a grain of salt because you've been on this forum for about week.

And before I dig myself deeper into the hole I want to say I seriously regret saying what I did because it obviously has affected Luke's mental state causing him to over explain his pricing on the Jiro and give away a $800 bread knife. With that said I stand by my initial reasoning that Luke does benefit in a way from this forum that others do not because of him being a maker/influencer. The right knives alway just seem to find their way to him and that is largely due to the kindness of the members of this forum. If the attitude is to reciprocate that kindness with making a few bucks then I have an issue with that (which I now know it is not).

If any run of the mill member wants to flip their knives and make a profit then I don't care. It was this particular context that I found distasteful and spoke up. In the end I was wrong and I was happy to pay the price for my mistake. Nothing self righteous about it in my personal opinion, in the past Ive admitted to taking offers on knives from other members and making a few bucks, although my intent with this hobby is not to make money but enjoy the knives and on the whole I've lost thousands just like many others here.

And this isn't a critique against Luke because he is a wonderful human being but he gets a lot of pandering comments on his posts, like yours, because there are a lot of suck ups around here who want a cutting board from him. Telling people what they want to hear isn't kindness because it isn't helpful. If you want to help someone then hit them with the truth. The former not the latter can be damaging to the forum.

In the spirit of keeping drama going for entertainment purposes I want to point out that even though you motives were "good" and you reversed your position after finding out the facts, the whole premise and spirit of this incident is a great example of good intentions causing more harm than good. It is not personal to you or this particular incident, but this is just a good example of such behavior.

First this illustrates that we can't reliably make judgement about a price or a flip without knowing the details. This is made even harder due to us not being able to define and agree on what constitutes a flip. We all sort of know what it is when we see it, but we can't seem to come to any reasonable, repeatable conclusion. A flip seems to be defined by the intention of the seller not the actual event. In this particular case the seller bought a knife for more because the previous seller in the opinion of the current seller undervalued the knife and the current seller being a good guy decided to pay more. Now, this is absolutely between the two parties involved and can be considered a good deed on current seller's part. Where this breaks down is when said knife is being sold again, now accounting for the price the current seller paid. All of a sudden due to a "good" deed the $700 knife becomes a $3000 knife, but the seller is excused from being called a flipper because he is not making a profit. How is this at all different from someone just buying a $700 knife and selling for $3000 and making a profit? The only differences are the intent and whom collected the profit. For this to continue to be a good deed the current seller should've covered the extra he decided to pay. Not something I advocate, but that's how it is.

You've explained that you only called this out because you believe that Luke gets special treatment from both getting knives and not being called out due to people sucking up to him and you felt that fairness has to be restored. Even if what you say is true, special treatment and all that, why should he be called out and to explain his price? Some here keep on saying that it helps the community, but it really doesn't. Calling out bad behavior can help the community, but it is unreasonable to expect people to pass on all their benefits down the line or bare the misfortune of overpaying due to location for example. This was possible when this community was tiny and mostly US based, it is unreasonable to expect this now especially with members from around the world. By ignoring reality we are driving people and knives from the community and this can't be good. As we all know we mostly loose money on buying and selling knives, it is ok to every once in a while balance this out because you happen to be fortunate at some point. If we exclude scammers and blatant misrepresentation then the community can determine the value of a knife without any price shaming. It really is very simple, if the price is too high, don't buy. There is no need to shame collectors, which most here are, there is no need to question how can someone buy a knife and not use it or shame drawer queens. Circumstances vary, but more importantly there is no positive in the arrogance displayed by some in their judgement of others' actions or motives.

 

[Logan A.]

I think justifying the price of a knife in a sale post is odd. If im selling a knife for $1000 then it doesn’t really matter how its price got to that point. That’s between me and my wallet, and if someone is willing to pay that then the story of why it’s that expensive shouldn’t really matter.

I’ve even felt pressured to do this at times. It’s very unpleasant. Just buy the knife or don’t. Don’t berate the seller for details and receipts.

 

[Bico Doce]

First this illustrates that we can't reliably make judgement about a price or a flip without knowing the details.

Hey Alex, you bring up some fair points here but Luke’s explanation of the pricing was there before I said anything. And his explanation was all about consulting other collectors and market price. I found it odd to offer that in the first place and if someone is going to offer an explanation why not say what you paid is a factor in that. His wording led me to deduce he was making some money on the knife when his replacement was handed to him by the kindness of another member. That struck me as off so I called him out on it. I stand by my assessment if my approach and delivery sucked then I accept that.

Some people here feel like flipping is cool. Others not. I guess I’m in the camp where I don’t think Luke should flip which he is not doing.

 

[fortheloveofmoar]

 

[labor of love]

I think justifying the price of a knife in a sale post is odd. If im selling a knife for $1000 then it doesn’t really matter how its price got to that point. That’s between me and my wallet, and if someone is willing to pay that then the story of why it’s that expensive shouldn’t really matter.

I’ve even felt pressured to do this at times. It’s very unpleasant. Just buy the knife or don’t. Don’t berate the seller for details and receipts.

People often “justify” prices to make the price make sense to any potential buyer. If you don’t care that’s fine. I often set prices based on condition, how much I paid, how much I thinned, rehandle costs, regrind costs or whatever.
Sometimes people just set asking prices way above msrp with no explanation given. Then get butthurt when questions are asked or suspicions are raised.

 

[Bico Doce]

I’ve even felt pressured to do this at times. It’s very unpleasant. Just buy the knife or don’t. Don’t berate the seller for details and receipts.

This seems a bit dramatic. If you feel good with your approach shouldn’t you feel comfortable with just saying the price is the price? How unpleasant is it really? Maybe I just have a thick skin…

 

[labor of love]

I’ve been on this forum for while as well as a few others. We went from flipping basically never happening, to flipping started happening and commentary on the bst thread calling it out, to have a separate thread to discuss it as negative comments on bst thread were against the rules, to now where even separate thread discussing it is now being treated as bad form.

 

[fortheloveofmoar]

Maybe I also have thick skin too but I see arguments for both sides and both have some merit. I think the devil can be in the details.

But counter argument to Logan—, if you feel pressured, you can always politely tell someone to piss off. Agreements go both ways. Sure you lose a buyer but if it’s a buyer you don’t want or feel comfortable with is that really a loss?

 

[Jovidah]

I think justifying the price of a knife in a sale post is odd. If im selling a knife for $1000 then it doesn’t really matter how its price got to that point. That’s between me and my wallet, and if someone is willing to pay that then the story of why it’s that expensive shouldn’t really matter.

I’ve even felt pressured to do this at times. It’s very unpleasant. Just buy the knife or don’t. Don’t berate the seller for details and receipts.

Heaven forbid a potential customer actually wants to make an informed choice when dropping a thousand dollars...

 

[esoo]

Heaven forbid a potential customer actually wants to make an informed choice when dropping a thousand dollars...

If you're dropping a $1000, you should already have a reasonable idea if it's worth that amount.

 

[labor of love]

Not at all lmao. I entertain the idea of buying a kato all the time. And I’ve studied/used a good bit of Katos. If someone’s posting a Kato for $1800-2k I want to know if it’s a post retirement inflated price kato or a 2021 kato, or an earlier one.
Again it’s long been established people can price things however they want but yeah I think descriptions and some backstory is nice. To think otherwise is absurd.

 

[Barmoley]

Hey Alex, you bring up some fair points here but Luke’s explanation of the pricing was there before I said anything. And his explanation was all about consulting other collectors and market price. I found it odd to offer that in the first place and if someone is going to offer an explanation why not say what you paid is a factor in that. His wording led me to deduce he was making some money on the knife when his replacement was handed to him by the kindness of another member. That struck me as off so I called him out on it. I stand by my assessment if my approach and delivery sucked then I accept that.

Some people here feel like flipping is cool. Others not. I guess I’m in the camp where I don’t think Luke should flip which he is not doing.

Hey David,

Your explanation is clear and your intentions also come from a good place, no question there. Like I said just using this as an example more so because you followed up once you learned the details. This almost never happens though, a seller gets pilled on and even when details become clear most of the anti flippers just disappear. Reputations can be lost as not everyone spends the time to read the whole thread to get into the details.

On the individual level the buyer can and should ask about the price and the details, or offer a lower price or whatever. It is the pile on and public shaming that I think is damaging.

 

[fortheloveofmoar]

If you're dropping a $1000, you should already have a reasonable idea if it's worth that amount.

That’s not how I roll

 

[panda]

I’ve been on this forum for while as well as a few others. We went from flipping basically never happening, to flipping started happening and commentary on the bst thread calling it out, to have a separate thread to discuss it as negative comments on bst thread were against the rules, to now where even separate thread discussing it is now being treated as bad form.

team #badform idgaf, I will call anything out

 

[esoo]

Not at all lmao. I entertain the idea of buying a kato all the time. And I’ve studied/used a good bit of Katos. If someone’s posting a Kato for $1800-2k I want to know if it’s a post retirement inflated price kato or a 2021 kato, or an earlier one.
Again it’s long been established people can price things however they want but yeah I think descriptions and some backstory is nice. To think otherwise is absurd.

Your example proves my point.

 

[panda]

everyone has the right to sell anything at what ever price they want, if there is a buyer for it at that price good for you. but if it's taking advantage of that fact then you are a turd. simple as that. the buyer is also a turd for overbidding limiting other actually interested parties a chance at it..

 

[daveb]

This thread seems to have grabbed defeat from the jaws of victory. Wasn't it settled?

 

[Bico Doce]

Hey David,

Your explanation is clear and your intentions also come from a good place, no question there. Like I said just using this as an example more so because you followed up once you learned the details. This almost never happens though, a seller gets pilled on and even when details become clear most of the anti flippers just disappear. Reputations can be lost as not everyone spends the time to read the whole thread to get into the details.

On the individual level the buyer can and should ask about the price and the details, or offer a lower price or whatever. It is the pile on and public shaming that I think is damaging.

I agree with you here.

Even with reasonable logic and good intentions I ended hurting a good person which is the last thing I wanted to do. I should have taken my concern to him directly

 

[Steve56]

We all agree that some behavior is bad but most is acceptable. We just like to piss and moan at where we draw the line. I find it refreshing compared to some other forums how civil and kind our disagreements are. We are a very tolerant and cosmopolitan crowd if this is among our most vitriolic disputes. Besides the fruity pizza thing of course.

First this illustrates that we can't reliably make judgement about a price or a flip without knowing the details

Maybe an example from a non-knife forum would help. There is a shaving forum where someone was selling a Wolfman Double Edge razor. There are several models but the nicer ones go for around a $1,000 more or less, and they are hand machined by a single master machinist and finished like jewelry. Wait time then was about a year. Someone, a well known and trustworthy member advertised a mint one for about $1,100 or thereabouts and was immediately set upon by another member.

After a vitriolic exchange between the offended member and other members - but not the seller, the seller finally produced an itemized list of what he had in the razor. The offensive member was warned and finally banned for his continued tirade - and it was a tirade. The seller might have rounded up a few 10s of bucks, but the buyer didn’t have to wait a year either for a razor that presented as new. I suspect, but do not know, that the offended party was offended because the seller didn’t discount the razor to a price that he could afford it.

So such things are not limited to knife forums, it happens everywhere. And flipping - selling something for more than you paid, is what many businesses and hobbies are founded on, kind of the American way, in a way. Flipping appears to be a derogatory term here, but car dealers sell cars for more than they paid, Best Buy sells fridges for more than they paid, ‘pickers’ sell stuff for more than they paid, and so on. Only on forums does it seem that the expectation is to lose money, or at worst break even. Go check eBay for vintage Takedas, they sell for more than the new ones.

 

[Barmoley]

everyone has the right to sell anything at what ever price they want, if there is a buyer for it at that price good for you. but if it's taking advantage of that fact then you are a turd. simple as that. the buyer is also a turd for overbidding limiting other actually interested parties a chance at it..

Why is anyone a turd in this situation? There is a buyer and a seller both are happy, I don't get it. Why can't a buyer show higher interest through paying higher price. just because someone else that doesn't want this knife as much doesn't want to pay that price? Price is not an absolute, it is not like there is a correct price for everything.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

If someone wins a free or free-ish knife in a maker's lottery, then immediately turns around and tries to sell it for 1.5x the maker's usual price, that's flipping. I have no issues with being called out, especially among other makers so they can decide to exclude the person if they apply for any of their events. But I also have no issue with the person being able to list it, again with it being called out for the whole story.

If a person buys a knife at price X and then lists it for two times that so what? Even three or four times that, so what?

Now, I may place that person squarely on my "never do business with" list but if someone else wants the knife, ignorant or just highly motivated so what?

I think we all can recognize if someone is being taken advantage of or something is ridiculous (damaged knife or some such) but it has been my experience, here and on other forums that these type incidents are routinely cited as justification for calling out "flippers" but in fact are rarely the actual situation for calling out "flippers".

In my experience it usually looks a lot more like this...

 

[Logan A.]

Heaven forbid a potential customer actually wants to make an informed choice when dropping a thousand dollars...

I don’t see how price justification would make your purchase more or less informed. The knife is the knife. You should know whether it’s worth “X” amount to you regardless.

 

[Byphy]

If you want to flip you gotta build up your reputation and be everyone's friend first. Then when you go to sell your knife/stone no one will question your character and instead you'll get flooded with the "This should be gone fast/how is this still here/this is great value despite x amount" comments

 

[nhb22]

If you want to flip you gotta build up your reputation and be everyone's friend first. Then when you go to sell your knife/stone no one will question your character and instead you'll get flooded with the "This should be gone fast/how is this still here/this is great value despite x amount" comments

I find this to be completely the opposite. Only people who regularly participate in the community, offer advice, add value to the forum, etc get held to a higher standard based on my observation. People I have never seen, with 30 messages in 3 years obviously flipping things, get no question. To be honest, those people probably don’t care if you call them flippers anyway.

 

[labor of love]

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