Hello, I am a professional chef and I just bought my first Japanese gyuto. I have sharpened German steel but this is my first time taking my j knife to the stone. I bought a tanaka ginsan gyuto that has a 60 hrc, I used it the first day without touching it to a stone and it was razor sharp, today I decided to sharpen it and I feel very inexperienced with this steel and can't tell if I'm getting the right angle and have already scuffed up my blade, ive gotten it sharp enough to get it to slice through paper but I feel like its duller than when I got it. I just need some help/pointers with harder steels and what angle I'm supposed to get it to. My angle is much more visible than the angle it came with(basically as thin as a piece of hair) I'm very new to sharpening and feel like I do some things right and some wrong. I don't want to mess my blade up.
Got my first knife, need help sharpening.
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when starting dont worry as much about "what angle" as just maintaining the same angle. the reason people struggle w/ getting the "insane sharp" edges are almost completely from inconsistent angles when sharpening.
also another piece of advice especially if you are concerned about messing up your blade: get a beater knife and practice practice practice. when you get to sharpening your nicer knives and if you are still concerned: if the edge isnt in bad condition start from a 3k~ grit stone. dont drop down to 400-500~ etc. you will remove much less material that way.
also another piece of advice especially if you are concerned about messing up your blade: get a beater knife and practice practice practice. when you get to sharpening your nicer knives and if you are still concerned: if the edge isnt in bad condition start from a 3k~ grit stone. dont drop down to 400-500~ etc. you will remove much less material that way.
I think all the same basics apply: be consistent, raise a burr on both sides, remove burr. The angle itself matters less than
You probably noticed the steel behaves differently from your other knives and thus the sharpening experience will be something to get used to. Generally an unfamiliar knife won’t get where I want it to be on the first or second go
You probably noticed the steel behaves differently from your other knives and thus the sharpening experience will be something to get used to. Generally an unfamiliar knife won’t get where I want it to be on the first or second go
KingShapton
Senior Member
If I understand you correctly then you have sharpening experience, but only with knives made of German steel ?!
Knives made from German steel usually have a significantly lower finish than Japanese knives. Simply because the comparatively lower hardened, mostly stainless steel, cannot hold a finer finish.
Which stones (maker and grit) did you use? At first glance I would assume that you have finished your Japanese knife too low ?! Simply because you are used to German steels that it is sufficient.
On the other hand, if a knife is properly sharpened you can shave arm hair from # 400, at the latest from # 1000 ...
If your angle is much larger and much more visible than the factory bevel, then you have either sharpened for far too long and thereby thickened the geometry of the cutting edge or you have sharpened a much flatter angle (i.e. thinned out more over the edge) and maybe not 100 at all % reached the apex ... Was there a burr over the entire edge? And are you sure that the burr has been completely removed?
As you can see, we need more information from you, there are simply too many possible sources of error ... but I think we will be able to help you to solve the problem!
Knives made from German steel usually have a significantly lower finish than Japanese knives. Simply because the comparatively lower hardened, mostly stainless steel, cannot hold a finer finish.
Which stones (maker and grit) did you use? At first glance I would assume that you have finished your Japanese knife too low ?! Simply because you are used to German steels that it is sufficient.
On the other hand, if a knife is properly sharpened you can shave arm hair from # 400, at the latest from # 1000 ...
If your angle is much larger and much more visible than the factory bevel, then you have either sharpened for far too long and thereby thickened the geometry of the cutting edge or you have sharpened a much flatter angle (i.e. thinned out more over the edge) and maybe not 100 at all % reached the apex ... Was there a burr over the entire edge? And are you sure that the burr has been completely removed?
As you can see, we need more information from you, there are simply too many possible sources of error ... but I think we will be able to help you to solve the problem!
Yes I did raise a bur and to me feels like I have removed it, I also stopped it at the finish of 8000, but I am curious as to why you need to take a j knife farther in grit opposed to a German steel(which mainly i used to practice on plus its my beater) I think I'm just very unfamiliar with the steel so I need to keep at it, I try very hard to keep the same angle with the 2 penny method, im just very inexperienced with it, should I use 400 to set an angle now that I've changed it from the factory edge? Thanks!
Thanks, I think I just need to keep at it. Weirdly enough its hard for me to raise a bur on the flat of my blade under the choil compared to the middle of my blade, I think I need to practice on even pressure as well, the very beginning of my blade kinda goes farther back than my German knife would
I'd use at least 3 pennies if your doing it this way, it's really dependent on what your knife height is, your better off trying to go by feel.
KingShapton
Senior Member
The "soft" stainless steel German knife is mostly hardened to approx. 55-57 hrc. Such an edge is simply not able to maintain a fine, high finish above a maximum of 2,000 grit. Most here see it as a waste of time to sharpen such knives with more than 500-1000 grit.
A J knife usually has a significantly better and significantly more hardened steel and can benefit from a higher finish. But here too there are limits to its use in the kitchen. At a certain level of refinement, the bite necessary for some foods disappears. Most (very generalized) see a finish above 4000 as useless for the kitchen. An exception would be, for example, the preparation of raw fish (sushi), where a finish of 8000 might make sense.
If you've completely removed the burr then I suspect two possible mistakes ...
The 2 penny method, maybe you should really walk more by feeling, possibly in combination with the sharpie trick. And I suspect a finish that is far too fine (8000). Try to stop at 3000 or 4000, the edge will feel much more aggressive. Maybe that's the difference you felt at the factory edge ?! Most factory edges are finished around 3000 grit.
At the risk of sounding like a preacher, sharpness is created with the first stone. All other stones only refine, after a certain point it is only polish.
Beginners tend to compensate for mistakes in technique by using very fine stones. and the wrong impression quickly arises that you have to go up to ultra-fine stones (10-12k) to get a very sharp knife. That's nonsense! A scary sharp knife can be made with a 400 stone, sharpness begins on the first stone. If the preparatory work on the first stone is not correct, then all of the following stones are pointless! I also fell into this trap at the beginning, with time, practice and experience you will realize at some point that you need very little for a very sharp knife.
Thank you! I feel like you have clarified alot for me, I need to get some more stone because my low grit is 400 1000 and 3000 then a 8000.the only thing I really worry about doing is taking my angle to low, but I think I have got a pretty good feel for it on my blade
KingShapton
Senior Member
Glad I could help.
If I were you, I would try to work with the 3000 as a finisher first.
In other words, first try to get the best result out of your stones. New, more stones do not improve your technique.
All of this only under the condition that your stones have a reasonable quality, i.e. from a good and well-known manufacturer.
What kind of stones do you have?
I kinda just use my friends crappy stones, what are some good beginner/cheaper but good quality stones and what grits do you recommend? If I can get a deal with split stones I'd rather go that route. Thanks again!
Unless the stones are super terrible, the problem is more likely with your technique than with the stones.
I would encourage you to watch the JKI sharpening series (ignore the videos on single bevel sharpening for now) and knifeplanet.net sharpening school for some great pointers on technique.
How are you flattening your stones?
One common impediment to achieving a sharp edge is inadequate attention to deburring. Can you describe how you deburred the knife?
I will reiterate @KingShapton 's advice: Don't move past a 1k stone until the knife is sharp. Don't go past 3-4K until you really know what you are doing (and then only to play unless you are cutting sashimi).
FWIW, I find Ginsanko much easier to sharpen than the coarse grained stainless found in most Western knives.
I would encourage you to watch the JKI sharpening series (ignore the videos on single bevel sharpening for now) and knifeplanet.net sharpening school for some great pointers on technique.
How are you flattening your stones?
One common impediment to achieving a sharp edge is inadequate attention to deburring. Can you describe how you deburred the knife?
I will reiterate @KingShapton 's advice: Don't move past a 1k stone until the knife is sharp. Don't go past 3-4K until you really know what you are doing (and then only to play unless you are cutting sashimi).
FWIW, I find Ginsanko much easier to sharpen than the coarse grained stainless found in most Western knives.
Probably half of my Japanese knives weren’t quite sharpened at the very tip/edge of the heel. That is, on close inspection you could see the edge bevel trail off at the very last tiny bit of the heel.
Until I figured this out I was doing a lot of head-scratching and cursing and wondering why my burrs were great from 1” ahead of the choil, but I just could not raise a burr in that last 1”. So look carefully and see if this applies to your knife - that little bit of thickness keeps the heel slightly elevated off the stone. You can also hear and feel the difference on the stone if you have a slight high spot like that.
So just make sure my stones are leveled then? Thanks for the tip! I'm using a friend's stone and that might be why.
For the bur, I make sure I feel it on my first side then raise it on the other, then move up on the next grit doing the same, and then when I'm ready for the polishing grit I do the stroping strokes on each side till its gone
I should clarify that I was referring to the OOTB edge not going quite all the way to the tip of the heel. But yes, inspect that spot and make sure your edge bevel goes cleanly to the very end, make sure the stones are flat, and then you should be good to go.
Could also be that your angle is unconsciously getting shallower when you're working near the heel, which would make it harder to raise a burr. Alternatively, if it's really flat near the heel, your pressure will be distributed over a larger area, which I suppose could make it a little harder to raise a burr(?).
tostadas
Hobbyist / Craftsman
The sharpie trick is very useful when starting out in order to see where you're sharpening.
Also, it's possible that the burr is not being completely removed during your stropping. If that's the case, then it could feel like you're losing your edge quickly. The @Kippington method is an effective way to ensure the burr is gone.
Also, it's possible that the burr is not being completely removed during your stropping. If that's the case, then it could feel like you're losing your edge quickly. The @Kippington method is an effective way to ensure the burr is gone.
You may want to look at Pete Nowlan's (@Sailor) video on abrading the burr (with gradually reducing pressure) on knifeplanet.net
I abrade the burr in this way on the coarsest stone I will use. Subsequent stones are only for polising with very light pressure.
An alternative is the Kippington deburring method, as outlined in the video linked above.
KingShapton
Senior Member
Ok, so which brand / manufacturer and which series are we talking about?
For starters, coarse and medium and possibly fine. In grits as an approximate guideline 400, 800-1200, 3000-5000.
The information is deliberately vague, depending on the manufacturer, the given grit numbers differ enormously in reality.
A coarse and a medium stone are sufficient for the beginning, but if you find a good offer then there is nothing against buying a finisher directly, especially if you get a bundle advantage in terms of price.
What you should definitely consider is a possibility to flatten the stones, this is very important, as @Nemo has already said so aptly! It can be a diamond plate (Atoma), but for the beginning it can also be just loose Sic powder on a glass plate, which is much cheaper, but it causes more dirt.
Another advantage if you only buy 2 stones (coarse and medium) at the beginning is simply that you can then see whether the stones suit you. Some prefer soft stones with mud, some prefer harder stones and often the preference only develops over time. it is a matter of experience.
Taking into account the fact that you work as a professional chef, I would assume that you prefer splash & go stones ?!
A very good set would be Naniwa Professionel (formerly Chosera) 400, 800 and as a finisher 2000 or 3000. The 2000 finishes more like a 3000 and costs significantly less than the 3000. The 3000 also finishes finer than 3000. Splash & go, good feedback and appreciated by many users and experienced sharpeners. So much so that you will find a lot of opinions that say that you won't need anything else for kitchen knives. This set and this manufacturer would not be my personal first choice, but it is very good and its properties are nicely in the middle of the available range of stones and brands.
Otherwise, with the help of the search function, you can find tons of purchase advice on stones here in the forum and there is really every possibility from top to bottom "chewed through". Maybe that will help you with a selection ..
You should definitely remove the burr after every stone, completely! The suggested videos by Peter Nowlan and also the vids by Jon Broida are really well done and full of useful information.
Just as important, the "pressure management", you will also find a lot of understandable and well-explained information at Peter Nowlans Vids.
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Whichever brand you could recommend for beginners? I saw your splash and go recommendations but I don't mind spending a little extra time taking care of my knife. I know there are so many different types but I just want something easy and reliable to start with till I dip my toes in the world of stones and sharpening/polishing supplies.
tostadas
Hobbyist / Craftsman
Shapton Kuromaku 1k for the "medium" stone, and the 2k for the "final" stone
It can't be beat as a splash and go for the price. You can usually find on amazon for around $40-50 ea.
Edit: MTC has em on sale right now
https://mtckitchen.com/sharpening-stones/brand/shapton/
How are the naniwa lobster stone set? Is that a good value stone?
KingShapton
Senior Member
Are we talking about this Naniwa lobster set?
https://www.fine-tools.com/naniwa-lobster.html
I don't know that personally, it's a very inexpensive series by Naniwa, made in Vietnam. I myself would always prefer one of the high quality series from Naniwa and that would be the Naniwa Professionals, formerly known as Chosera.
With whetstones, the rule "buy cheap, buy twice" (mostly) applies.
If it is a question of the purchase price, as I said, the 400 and the 800 are enough to start with.
Very good soakers would be, for example, the Suehiro Cerax 1000 and 3000, which are also available as a combination stone. But I don't have any experience with the coarser stone.
Otherwise, as already written, you can find near endless pages of purchase advice for stones here in the Sharpening Station, where every available series is discussed in detail under every aspect in terms of "shape, color and flavor". Much more detailed than I could do here. Maybe it would be best if you invested some time in reading first.
Just want to thank you for all your help, since Christmas is coming up. I'm just gonna ask for the shapton ceramic 300, 1000 and 5000 set. Do you think ill need a 3k for the jump on my ginsan steel? And like I said thabk you so much for all your help!
KingShapton
Senior Member
With the Shapton Ceramic (I guess you mean the Shapton Pro ?!) I would also consider the 2000. It feels like one of the best stones in the series, but much more important - it makes the jump to the 5000 much easier. Plus, a really good stone for touchups, plus a really good finisher for cases where an aggressive edge is more appropriate. And that can also be a very good finisher for softer German steels.
Have fun with your new stones. A solid base that I still like to use for years to this day.
Have fun with your new stones. A solid base that I still like to use for years to this day.
