How much bite advantage does Aogami Super offer over Shirogami?

[miggus]

Hi guys,

I'm considering trying a blade from Isamitsu. So now I have the old question whether I should go for Shirogami (Maboroshi equivalent) or Aogami Super (Denka equivalent).
In the TF continuum, Denka seems to be considered the superior line, and not just another steel type. Which comes with added increase in cost. It can't be the AS only - Moritaka's for example are not nearly as expensive. Isamitsu does the same price increase as they basically copied TFs structure, but they tend to recommend Shirogami, actually.

After many years of working with Shirogami#1, we are able to produce knives that take full advantage of this steel, and manifest the qualities that make it great. We’d recommend this to anyone unsure of which core steel to choose.

Why am I asking this question? I have knives of most of the typical J-Knive steels, and few I adore as much as the Denka 165 Nakiri. The way it throws itself into produce makes one believe it's a powered tool. It has a raw, aggressive kind of cutting experience. The Togashi I recently got (W#1) and the Kurosaki (SG2) are very sharp, but more "civilized" sharp, I'd say. Which is less fun. Sometimes they don't cut too well even though they are sharp.

First I thought this is purely a grind issue, but when reading around the forum, I found some info that credits tungsten carbides in AS with the added toothiness, notable these two threads: Aogami Super | Kitchen Knife Forums Bite retention | Kitchen Knife Forums

For example:

I like tungsten carbon steels around food for a couple reasons... Firstly, they seem to take a little toothier edge from sharpening than the simpler carbon alloys, and so far all the renditions I've tried have responded to deburring well. Secondly, when exposed to organic acids (Peppers, tomatoes, citrus, rare beef, etc.), the edge gets progressively toothier (Especially Aogami Super) as it erodes around the carbides rather than growing smooth like Shirogami or 10xx. You loose the hair-shaving sharpness, but you still have enough effective bite to keep going, rather than having the edge just start to slide.

This at least seems to explain my situation well.

Knife steel nerds also kind of supports this view: Is Blue Super Steel Actually Super? The Facts about Tungsten-alloyed Steels - Knife Steel Nerds


So I wonder if someone can compare how big of a difference this will make. I don't eat meat, so I don't need a super smooth edge for filets or what not. But I do like it if the knife doesn't struggle with tomato or bell pepper skin all too often. Rust resistance doesn't matter to me, never had a problem even with iron clad knives, neither do i need a knife that stays sharp super long. But I'd love to get that aggressive edge for longer, if possible.

Do you think investing into the AS version will help with the aggressive cutting feel, or is this only a small difference and sharpening skill will have the much bigger impact? Obviously this is difficult to quantify, but any comment on this will be appreciated. As will any incentive to go for the expensive blade and compare it to a Denka

Thanks for reading.

 

[Troopah_Knives]

I have never been able to feel the difference and honestly at the end of the day I think that it makes some sense AS has at most a MC type (tungsten and vanadium) carbide volume of <3% so if they do add some toothyness I have a hard time believing it would be particularly dramatic.

 

[Benuser]

The question should rather be if you're better off with the one or the other treated by this very maker. General observations about different steel types won't help you.

 

[miggus]

Fair enough. Do you have any opinions on if the AS would be noticeably bitier?

 

[Jovidah]

Speaking in generalities my experience is that basic steels like shirogami tend to go 'off a cliff' more in their sharpness versus steels that have more carbides. Retention is really where I noticed the main differences between basic white and more spicy stuff (although caveat: I never used any aogami super).

It might also be worth digging up Larrin Thomas's extensive blogpost investigating edge retention.

 

[Benuser]

Fair enough. Do you have any opinions on if the AS would be noticeably bitier?

Sure, I do, but that's exactly what doesn't answer your primary question. It makes little sense to add my experience with both steels to the tons of opinions you will find here. I haven't handled any knife by Isamitsu, be it shirogami or AS. What you need are reports by users of both steels as treated by Isamitsu.

 

[M1k3]

AS is slightly less reactive. AS has better edge retention, but nothing totally dramatic. For me in a professional setting, AS would last an extra 2-3 days compared to Shirogami.

 

[refcast]

The denka I had cut and bit into food better than the maboroshi I had. Like 15% less effort or something, but how it actually went through food was up to the grind and edge angle. Even then, heijis steel was nearly as good as both tf steels to me. But I personally would never pay the denka cost again

 

[Cliff]

I don't work in a pro environment. At home, I think my AS knives -- Denka, Moritaka, Kurosaki, Y Kato, Takeda -- all have much better retention than any white steel I have -- Y. Tanaka and Mazaki probably being the best in that regard. Maybe it's in my head, but the AS knives all feel much toothier; most of them, but not Moritaka or TF, feel more brittle. I would love to get a Tanaka AS knife to compare apples to apples.

 

[Delat]

There’s huge differences with the same steel from different smiths. For example my Y Tanaka white 2 had terrible edge retention which made me think white 2 is terrible. But then I got a Wakui white 2 which lasts way longer than I expected and made me think white 2 is impressive.

That aside, I do love the AS from Y Kato and Yu Kurosaki that I tried. Given an unknown situation, I’d choose AS. But if you know for a fact that the maker’s white 1 or 2 is excellent, then that would certainly swing the scales.

 

[miggus]

Thank you all for your replies!
@Troopah_Knives : Thanks for providing some real-life context. That is a very good point.

@Benuser: Sure, true. Though, at this point, I think we can assume Isamitsu is very, very close to what TF does. I mean, they took the portfolio and pricing amost 1:1 from their old boss, improving the one obvious thing in reducing Wabi-Sabi. In true TF style, they charge extra for it lol.

@Jovidah and @M1k3: That would be very plausible since AS has some stabilizing elements, and W#1 has nothing to prevent oxidation. Edge retention is not what I'm concerned with, though, but that (real or imagined) aggressive bite.

@refcast @Cliff @Delat: Yeah, it's that initial bite / toothiness I'm wondering about, before the knife is deep enough that the geometry will affect the outcome.

 

[M1k3]

Aggressive bite you're after? Norton India Fine stone.

 

[miggus]

Aggressive bite you're after? Norton India Fine stone.

Thanks. Yeah I got the idea that maybe I should mostly look into sharpening for bite at this point For those who're interested: there's a number of suggestions on this topic here: Bite retention

Norton India Fine is 320 grit, right? That's really course, but I might look into differential sharpening. I got a SG 500, that should probably roughly similar (no pun intended)

 

[Marcelo Amaral]

My recipe for aggressive biteness is to thin the blade using JNS300, sharpening later with naturals, trying not to polish it too much.
In my case i did that to a Mert Tansu sc125 and i had very satisfactory results.

 

[FishmanDE]

There’s huge differences with the same steel from different smiths. For example my Y Tanaka white 2 had terrible edge retention which made me think white 2 is terrible. But then I got a Wakui white 2 which lasts way longer than I expected and made me think white 2 is impressive.

That aside, I do love the AS from Y Kato and Yu Kurosaki that I tried. Given an unknown situation, I’d choose AS. But if you know for a fact that the maker’s white 1 or 2 is excellent, then that would certainly swing the scales.

Just a reminder that any talk regarding Y Tanaka that isn’t overwhelming positive is against forum rules.

 

[FishmanDE]

As far as this topic goes, I personally prefer a good white 1 over most AS I’ve tried. AS does feel more bitey or grippy, but I don’t think they’re as nice to sharpen. I found some feel a bit glassy. I think as others stated, it’s def more about the maker than anything else. Mazaki is out here changing lives with White 2; anything is possible.

 

[superworrier]

I’ve said this before but I wouldn’t look into the text there too much. It just makes sense to recommend the cheaper option if people are unsure, especially given the huge premium for AS.

IMO I would look into mab vs Denka discussions. Denka seems to be preferred

 

[FishmanDE]

I’ve said this before but I wouldn’t look into the text there too much. It just makes sense to recommend the cheaper option if people are unsure, especially given the huge premium for AS.

IMO I would look into mab vs Denka discussions. Denka seems to be preferred

I wouldn’t necessarily call it a huge premium. There are affordable AS options. Shiro kamo for example. You can get a 240mm ku for under $200

 

[miggus]

Yeah Moritaka offers repectable AS, too. Although their FnF is very similar to what TF delivers imho, but for far less money.
Say 250USD for a 240 AS Gyuto instad of 600.

I think @superworrier was referring to TF and Isamitsu, though. Here the price gap is large. About 350 USD for 240mm W#1 vs 550 for 240mm AS.

 

[Runner_up]

Get the AS over the white #1.

In my experience, both as an ex pro cook and now as a pro sharpener, the AS will retain a toothy edge well suited to tomatoes/peppers far far longer than the white steel.

I have 5 TF in my personal collection. 3 in white steel (2 maboroshi 1 nashiji), 2 Denka. In use at home the denkas rarely need sharpening, while the white#1 benefits from semi regular touchups.

Their AS is quite easy to sharpen. Not as easy as white#1, where two passes on a stone = shaving arm hair, but still rather straightforward and hassle free.

I have also found my denkas to have better edge retention by a large margin when compared to my Moritaka in AS. I only have the one Moritaka though so this is purely anecdotal. In fact I find tf AS superior to most other AS knives I have owned/used extensively. (Takefu, Moritaka, Takeda)

Look forward to trying an isamitsu at some point.

 

[captaincaed]

My typical experience is that knives with finer carbide structures are able to take toothier edges off a good stone. I would say both steels that you are looking at fall into the fine carbide category. A steel like ingot cast D2 is probably on the far other end, because it has large lumpy and irregular carbides. It is my least favorite steel to sharpen apart from a mystery high alloy steel on a western makers knife.

in the middle are things like high carbide volume powdered metallurgy steels. They'll take a great edge, not quite as flexible as simple carbon, but hold it a long time.

I think because I have such a broad range of steels, I see the distinction between white and blue super as a fairly narrow distinction on the question you're asking. However if you are going to split hairs, I think the general distinction between white and blue steel is that white trends to take any edge you want to put on it very well, from coarse to very refined to shaving, but will lose it quicker. A blue family steel tends to have a less keen top end but gains edge retention. Both will take an equally toothy edge, blue steels will tend to hold it longer.

i’d be cautious of trying to say, one Smith is great and another Smith is crap. A lot of times people have tried a single knife from a given maker. There's a pretty big range of outcomes with forge heat treated knives. Kilns offer better repeatability. If there is a broad consensus about a steel from a maker, you might be able to draw some conclusions from voices of many people. out of the 60 or so knives I've used, I would only consider one to have poor edge retention. I do not know if it was the steel, or how it was heat treated. But it’s the only knife that I think had an actual problem. I have other knives with different steels from the same maker, and they all perform well.

 

[M1k3]

Thanks. Yeah I got the idea that maybe I should mostly look into sharpening for bite at this point For those who're interested: there's a number of suggestions on this topic here: Bite retention

Norton India Fine is 320 grit, right? That's really course, but I might look into differential sharpening. I got a SG 500, that should probably roughly similar (no pun intended)

Although quite coarse, the edges are quite keen. The kind of edges that laugh at tomato skins and won't glide on cutting boards. SG 500 leaves a nice bite edge also.

 

[Chopper88]

Just a reminder that any talk regarding Y Tanaka that isn’t overwhelming positive is against forum rules.

I've been reading this forum for a while now, also before registering, but I don't really recognize this sentiment?
---------

On topic, I think this is a hard call to make based on forum responses; simply too many variables to consider random people's experiences on the internet relevant.
Depends on heat treat, grind, skill/stone/method/number of times of sharpening, edge and knife geometry, produce that's being cut, cutting technique, cutting board and possibly another 1001 other things as well.

 

[chefwp]

I do like it if the knife doesn't struggle with tomato or bell pepper skin all too often.

Pardon me for going beyond the essence of your question about steels, but here is some food for thought (my motto: all puns always intended). If you are going for a dice on these veggies, once you've initially broken them up into pieces to dice up, put the pieces skin side down on your board. This puts the skin between the proverbial rock and a hard place, or the not-proverbial steel and a hard-surface-of-a-cutting-board place. Not only does the physics of this assist in cleaving the skin easily, it is safer to boot (if your knife did become duller after a long day of prep, it is less likely to slip on the skin if it is facing downwards).

I wouldn’t necessarily call it a huge premium. There are affordable AS options. Shiro kamo for example. You can get a 240mm ku for under $200

^^^ This is totally true, I once had a Kamo nakiri in AS and while the finish wasn't refined and it wasn't the prettiest of knives in the eyes of this becutter, the edge had monstrously excellent retention, and I picked it up new for a song.

Speaking of aesthetics, I think the patina that forms on the blue steels have always looked nicer than on my whites, but I've only had a couple white steel knives, so this may not be a rule across the board, just my anecdotal observation, also highly subjective of course. White is also far more reactive in my experience, but I think the OP mentioned he wasn't too concerned about that. good luck!

 

[Delat]

I've been reading this forum for a while now, also before registering, but I don't really recognize this sentiment?
---------

It's just a joke - there's a lot of love for Y Tanaka on this forum.

 

[Chopper88]

Yeah I know, I have several as well

I was referring to the 'not allowed' part.
I didn't mean to start any serious discussion on this anyways , just never saw any hard discussions on Y Tanaka.
TF on the other hand...

 

[miggus]

In fact I find tf AS superior to most other AS knives I have owned/used extensively.

Thank you for your detailed insights on this matter.

Look forward to trying an isamitsu at some point.

I'm considering to pass around the Isamitsu if I decide to order it... but that would be in the EU. Still - when I inquired, they told me that they can make a knife for me in December at the earliest. It seems they are well in business already and Isas will start showing up here soon

Both will take an equally toothy edge, blue steels will tend to hold it longer.

Thank you as well for your thorough explanation and another very valid perspective on the matter.

SG 500 leaves a nice bite edge also.

I'll certainly try this and also experiment with a few of the variations that are given in the other thread. Thanks!

put the pieces skin side down on your board

Good point, even though I have to admit I find it more satisfying with the skin up. Especially since I tend to need a bit more pressure if the skin is down, because I don't have the direct feedback if it has been cut - when the knife starts to sink in, I certainly know the cut has happened. You might rightfully add that with a well-sharpened knife, I don't need feedback, since I'll know that it has cut

Speaking of aesthetics, I think the patina that forms on the blue steels have always looked nicer than on my whites,

interesting point. I only have clad knives in blue, so it isn't so easy to observe. My impression is that they all end up greyish after a while and only the first patinas are really intense and colorful. But I haven't played around with it too much yet. Maybe I should try a monosteel blue gyuto and compare

White is also far more reactive in my experience, but I think the OP mentioned he wasn't too concerned about that

Correct. Even with the Ashi Ginga W#1, which are pure, it doesn't bother me, never had rust, even though I'm not super careful. Living in a pretty dry climate certainly helps here. If I understand this right, iron clad usually is way more reactive than even white steel, and that has been fine, too.

TF on the other hand...

TF has worked long and hard to earn their controversies with thousands of wonky expensive knives. I don't think Tanaka can say the same

 

[chefwp]

interesting point. I only have clad knives in blue, so it isn't so easy to observe. My impression is that they all end up greyish after a while and only the first patinas are really intense and colorful. But I haven't played around with it too much yet. Maybe I should try a monosteel blue gyuto and compare

That is a good point. I'm not really comparing the core steels here necessarily, as my blues are not monosteel, whereas a couple of my whites were (Ashi)...

 

[Cliff]

Ashi Ginga is White no. 2. I don't think I've seen monosteel White no. 1 apart from Honyaki.

It's true that my Tanaka B1 holds its edge for a very, very long time, pretty close to most of my AS blades, though not TF. I've never taken the Tanaka to a coarse finish, so I don't know how well it would hold a toothy edge. It holds a refined one incredibly well.

 

[FishmanDE]

Yeah I know, I have several as well

I was referring to the 'not allowed' part.
I didn't mean to start any serious discussion on this anyways , just never saw any hard discussions on Y Tanaka.
TF on the other hand...

Your defense of the Y Tanaka comments in question has been noted and are currently being reviewed by the secret council