naader
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Main mountain?
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Likely referring to either Shobudani or Nakayama.
naader
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Oh are you talking about honyama??
Yes, one of the stamps is ‘main mountain’.
naader
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Honyama doesn't mean main mountain. Shobudani-yama was sorta dubbed Honyama by the shogunate in the late 12th century.
It was named after Honma Tozaemon after he discovered the areas value as a whetstone quarrey and started pumping out primo whetstones.
Honyama basically means "Honma's mountain".
I think that we’re talking at cross purposes here. One of the stamps on the stone says ‘pure main mountain’
The translation is from a friend who is a teacher in Japan
"Pure Main Mountain" 純本山 "jun-moto/hon-yama"
Do you have Alex Gilmore’s new book? It has a lot of the history and terminology of the whetstone mountains documented.
The translation is from a friend who is a teacher in Japan
"Pure Main Mountain" 純本山 "jun-moto/hon-yama"
Do you have Alex Gilmore’s new book? It has a lot of the history and terminology of the whetstone mountains documented.
user 16756
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A bit of friendly advice, I would consider who you are talking to at the moment.
Naader knows what he is talking about. As in, he REALLY knows what he is talking about.
No offense intended. I understand the origin of the terms, but am confused about the context relating to the stamps on this stone. As far as the history of the area/mountain goes, the most complete source that I’ve found is Alex Gilmore’s book which goes into great detail. Most of us are familiar with Alex as ‘the Japan stone’.
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With as many stones as have gone through Naader’s hands, I bet he could also write a book. Here’s a sample
https://instagram.com/ao.renge?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Stamps are stamps. In the end, it’s how each individual stone performs that is most important
https://instagram.com/ao.renge?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Stamps are stamps. In the end, it’s how each individual stone performs that is most important
I absolutely agree, experience with large numbers of stones makes a difference. Here’s part of my hoard. I am not new to JNats, I’ve been collecting for about 15 years now.
Pardon my disorganization, I’m working on that.
The cashew is cured and continuing to test on slurry with a straight razor and a Takeda ko bunka. The SR passed with flying colors and the polish on the Takeda did too, though it’s very difficult to capture the ji/ha with a cell phone.
The very best ji/ha polishers will put kind of a dark line at the interface of the soft and hard steel, but I’m not seeing that with this one, at least not yet. It’s a very desirable trait if the stone will do that, it adds some contrast or ‘something’ to the appearance. Of course, the first time that you use the knife all that’s gone.
As far as the face stamps go, they do not of course mean anything with respect to performance. But if you collect or resell the stone, then they can be important. It’s quite easy to pay $1,500 or more for a face-stamped Hatanaka stone and when you lap it, you’ll find that you just lapped off $1k worth of ink if you try to resell it. That’s not very important to me because I rarely sell, I’m just a collector, but it is something to think about.
Not the greatest image
The very best ji/ha polishers will put kind of a dark line at the interface of the soft and hard steel, but I’m not seeing that with this one, at least not yet. It’s a very desirable trait if the stone will do that, it adds some contrast or ‘something’ to the appearance. Of course, the first time that you use the knife all that’s gone.
As far as the face stamps go, they do not of course mean anything with respect to performance. But if you collect or resell the stone, then they can be important. It’s quite easy to pay $1,500 or more for a face-stamped Hatanaka stone and when you lap it, you’ll find that you just lapped off $1k worth of ink if you try to resell it. That’s not very important to me because I rarely sell, I’m just a collector, but it is something to think about.
Not the greatest image
naader
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So there was this weird game played with "Honyama" where, I think it was retailers who had some 本山 stamps made and they just put that **** everywhere as long as the stone was from kyoto.
Honyama from a marketing perspective was valuable and people wanted to capitalize on that.
It basically turned into a game of cat and mouse; stamps like 正本山 and 純本山 started making rounds basically as a way of saying "Honyama for real this time" but where theres value, there are counterfeits. I've had plenty of Ohira suita with 正本山 stamps on them lol.
Language is plastic to the environment. Enough people start referring to Kyoko stones as Honyama and Honyama starts to mean Kyoto stone.
It really does all come back to Honma Tozaemon, the guy "Honyama" was named for. Yeah, "hon" can mean true, main or for-real etc etc but it's ultimately referring to a dude who found the smoothest rocks on a big hill.
Is it possible that even within japan, people interpreted "Honyama" as some way of saying "og big dick mountain"? Sure, but the history behind the term can't be discounted. There could have been people spreading the stamp and it's variations with the misunderstanding that it meant something along the lines of "main mountain" but their misunderstanding doesn't change the fact that we're ~820 years deep into calling Shobudani-yama "Honyama" and that's only because Honma was really good at picking out hills to dig on.
I appreciate the support from friends on the forum and think its great to ask questions, especially if you get your information from highly reputable sources. Alex Gilmore is as OG as it gets in this hobby and while I haven't read his book, I can guarantee that he is going to be subjected to the same oral tradition as the rest of us when consulting mine and shop owners in Japan. History will always be a bit of a puzzle, especially when passed down orally, and the above interpretation of "Honyama" Ithink is the most likely based on what I've read and heard from others. Honma Tozaemon was a real historical figure and "Honyama" was a title to honor his achievement, everything after that is cat and mouse marketing explained through generational broken telephone.
That’s consistent with my understanding of the history - certainly the word ‘hon’ has many uses as ’true’ as in hon urushi.
Here’s something that I’ve posted elsewhere a couple of years ago, well about three now, a trip to visit my friend Alex Gilmore (japanstones) in Sonoma, CA. I timed it right, the week after I returned, the world stopped and I doubt that I would have been able to make the trip. If you’re a JNat person, this is a trip that should be on your list.
Shiro nagura anyone? The large white suita I had with me for a while, but I did not end up buying it, it sold for the price of two small new cars Alex said, and he hand carried it to Germany I believe. Lots of beautiful stones!
The large karasu came from the Nakayama mine site and was a gift from Kato san’s son if I remember correctly.
The large karasu came from the Nakayama mine site and was a gift from Kato san’s son if I remember correctly.
shobudonnie
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This place is in Sonoma ca
The four small stones and the kamisori plus the kiita koppa are part of my ‘take’ from the trip. I bought another kamisori then later bought another larger stone or two, but thought shipping was safer than checked luggage. On the weekend, Alex and Emiko and I went over to Dillon Beach, a ross from Point Reyes, and I got a chamce to do some photography. It’s a stunningly beautiful area.
Wowzers, that’s an insane collection of stones
Yes, one of the largest inventories in the west I think.He’s selling off a lot now and his online store is back up. He said that he likely won’t be buying more, at least not much. We’re at the age where buying much more doesn’t make a lot of sense except for a specific need or something just tickles your fancy.
user 16756
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It is an interesting question, isnt it? How many stones can you realistically burn through in your lifetime?
Im in my early 30s and recently upon taking yearly stock for insurance purposes, realized just how much Ive accumulated. Not just knives and stones, but the stones are a big one. Even though I like polishing, I have multiple >2KG suitas that are on the harder/finer side because those are my favorites. How long to blast through a single one if I polish once a week? I would expect potentially a decade for a single stone.
What’s his online store?
It depends on what you’re doing. I’ve been told that a busy professional carpenter in Japan can burn through a suita in a year. A razor stone is typically much harder than most knife and tool hones, and razor honing pressure is extremely light compared to knives and tools - a razor hone can last multiple lifetimes. You probably lose as much stone from keeping a razor hone flat as you do using it.
Oh, and you could weigh the stone on a kitchen scale, then after 10-20 polishings, weigh it again. That might give you a rough idea of how much life that you have in the stone.
I know of people who have churned through full size type 30 stones like bench nagura and suita in about a year - so your datapoint seems quite accurate there. The carpentry folks not only buy most of the really high end suita but are more than capable of using them up in relatively short order as well.
For a hobbyist, a harder stone at 40mm is almost certainly a lifetime investment, even doing many projects a year. On my harder stuff I haven't detected any noticeable change in weight or height and I do a fair amount of polishing. The soft stuff is a different story. In aggregate, I've shaved through at least 30mm of soft stuff like Akapin, soft uchi, tenjou suita, maruo shiro, etc in the last 2-3 years. Besides coarse synths these are the place I'm spending the most time working though. I also do a decent amount of polishing, at least an hour a day on average, probably a good bit more. Add in loss for removing layers of su, etc.
All that said, if you're using your stones enough to wear through them you're almost certainly not going to be bothered buying another at the end. Stones / polishing on an $ / hour basis is certainly cheaper than a lot of hobbies, just with a high initial cost.
naader
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Yes hello you called?
So if you’re spending 1-2 hours per day and barely impacting your suita….just how much sharpening are these carpenters doing????
Unlike me they'll spend most of their time on stones like this is my understanding. Multiple times a day depending on work load. And those stones need to be dead flat all of the time. So lots of flattening evening though they are good at using the whole surface pretty easily. But... A LOT.
Nice pictures, the first brought back memories of Point Lobos and the sensation on walking in the footsteps of Edward Weston. Cheers.
