Just Another Dam Project - Pass HHT on your kitchen knife

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captaincaed said:
Aaaand that edge failed tonight. Apparently it wasn't a sturdy edge. Back to the drawing board.

Learning is fun, but failing publicly is less fun.
Click to expand...

Doh! What do you mean? Chipping on the board?

I am going to use my Ginga to cook dinner tonight. I am a little apprehensive. I thinned it out so that it would stand a better shot at passing HHT. This is probably unnecessary if you are a boss-level sharpener. Anyway... the end result is a knife sharper than I generally use in the kitchen and a thinner edge than i'd like.

Suffice to say... board-banging it won't be on the menu!!
 
captaincaed said:
Aaaand that edge failed tonight. Apparently it wasn't a sturdy edge. Back to the drawing board.

Learning is fun, but failing publicly is less fun.

To quote Thomas Edison, I'm discovering 990 ways not to sharpen a knife
Click to expand...

Or, in case any youngsters are reading:

Your knife has 99 problems but a lasting edge ain't one.

I kid of course: I tested my two "sharpest" knives on HHT, both of which effortlessly shave hair from skin: one I sharpened can get 2, another is somewhere between 3 and 4 - but I can take no credit for that, it came from the maker that way and even hours of prep with it doesn't seem to want to dull it. What witchcraft???? Ah well, it's good to be humbled by your tools now and again.
 
Luftmensch said:
Doh! What do you mean? Chipping on the board?

I am going to use my Ginga to cook dinner tonight. I am a little apprehensive. I thinned it out so that it would stand a better shot at passing HHT. This is probably unnecessary if you are a boss-level sharpener. Anyway... the end result is a knife sharper than I generally use in the kitchen and a thinner edge than i'd like.

Suffice to say... board-banging it won't be on the menu!!
Click to expand...

Curious how the edge holds. Please tell us.

Maybe it still holds and you have found a way to get your knife sharpen and still usable?
 
Note to myself:

You are among people who actually worn complete stones, and not just the 200 gritt soft ones,
some even multiple times,
while using and rotating through multiple 'same but different' stones,

You are among people who think splitting a hair after 16k is cheating,
who excuse themselves if they only treetop hair after thinning a knife too much,
and encourage themselves to play Beethoven' 7th at only 1k or 2k gritt.

It's hard to put into perspective where you stand at sharpening knives.
Your friends say you do good,
the family is impressed.
Even I was pretty satisfied myself lately,

Last year i found out
I climbed to the top of my ladder,
step by step
only to find out it was a housewives kitchenladder,
Not the one the window washer uses to go where mom can't reach.

Those guys are truly at a total different level

So, Dennis. What are you goint to do today? Paint and decorite the babies room???
Or back to grinding on the stones??

---

Sorry, Honey. Ill finish the room tomorrow, or the day after that.




Cheers guys, great topic
 
Kawa said:
Curious how the edge holds. Please tell us.

Maybe it still holds and you have found a way to get your knife sharpen and still usable?
Click to expand...

Had burritos for dinner - a lot of dicing involved ;)

First up let me just say... preparing one meal for two people is hardly endurance testing. If you want to be generous, you could count it as two or three meals - the ingredients should last another night or two. Also consider:
  • I believe the stainless Ginga is AEB-L which is supposed to be a reasonably tough steel.
  • I use an Asahi cutting board which is a fairly forgiving cutting surface.
Main prep involved:
  • Dicing 2 onions.
    • Pretty standard oño prep. Most similar to @stringers vertical method. I keep the root on so that it holds the pieces together.
  • Mincing 4 cloves of garlic.
    • Start by thinly slicing. Near identical to @stringer's garlic video. I cut slices from the top to the bottom of the cloves (perpendicular to @stringer). The slices are the width of the clove. Then power mince. I only use a single action chop (heel up & down) - and of course... @stringer is more awesome!
  • Preparing 4 capsicums.
    • Pretty similar to @stringer's second technique in this video (barrel roll). The main difference is that when I dice the capsicum, I dont slide/guillotine back and forth on the front 1/4 of the blade. Instead I do push chops - probably more forgiving on the front 1/4 but worse for the last 3/4 of the blade
  • Preparing tomatoes.
    • We had cherry tomatoes.... so i used cherry tomatoes (250g). I sliced them into eighths (rather slow and fiddly) and then rock chopped that mass into a rough dice
  • Shredding some lettuce
    • Not much interesting to say. Chop, chop...
My quick thoughts are:
  • Lets start with the obvious. There was no discernible advantage during food prep. Nor did I really expect there to be. But we are doing this for sport; right? I didn't feel the knife cut any better than my normal routine which stops at 3K. Perhaps there might be some advantage to super precise work with protein? With vegetables? I dont think there is. Any gains in sharpness moving from a 3K edge to HHT are negligible in comparison to everything else that is going on (at least in my case). For instance, when cutting a nice juicy onion in half, the Ginga is prone to stiction. That 'drag' is going to drown out any perceptible increase in sharpness - and it did.
  • My main concern was how fragile the edge might be. I was initially careful when cutting but then relaxed to normal. The only thing I would note is that the edge grabbed the board more than usual. I would say this put the edge at slightly more risk to failing under torsional or shear forces when in contact with the board. I have tried to eliminate this in my technique - I attempt to keep all the cutting forces co-planar with the edge. Prep involved a fair amount of responsible and controlled board-banging. No visible damage. I am impressed!
  • Sharpness... I suppose this is the main one eh?? I thought it would remain 'sharp' but lose HHT. I have never done this so I was surprised to find the knife can still pop hairs! But I would say it is doing it less reliably. Some dont 'pop' quite as well. They split instead - HHT2. In some regions the hair violins instead (although this is HHT1... I dont consider it to be a worthwhile category - cut or nothing right?). All areas seem to shave as nicely as I would expect from a kitchen knife.
I guess I learned:
  • Acute angles can withstand responsible use
  • Very sharp edges aren't necessarily taken back to 'normal' after one meal
:)
 
Luftmensch said:
Had burritos for dinner - a lot of dicing involved ;)

First up let me just say... preparing one meal for two people is hardly endurance testing. If you want to be generous, you could count it as two or three meals - the ingredients should last another night or two. Also consider:
  • I believe the stainless Ginga is AEB-L which is supposed to be a reasonably tough steel.
  • I use an Asahi cutting board which is a fairly forgiving cutting surface.
Main prep involved:
  • Dicing 2 onions.
    • Pretty standard oño prep. Most similar to @stringers vertical method. I keep the root on so that it holds the pieces together.
  • Mincing 4 cloves of garlic.
    • Start by thinly slicing. Near identical to @stringer's garlic video. I cut slices from the top to the bottom of the cloves (perpendicular to @stringer). The slices are the width of the clove. Then power mince. I only use a single action chop (heel up & down) - and of course... @stringer is more awesome!
  • Preparing 4 capsicums.
    • Pretty similar to @stringer's second technique in this video (barrel roll). The main difference is that when I dice the capsicum, I dont slide/guillotine back and forth on the front 1/4 of the blade. Instead I do push chops - probably more forgiving on the front 1/4 but worse for the last 3/4 of the blade
  • Preparing tomatoes.
    • We had cherry tomatoes.... so i used cherry tomatoes (250g). I sliced them into eighths (rather slow and fiddly) and then rock chopped that mass into a rough dice
  • Shredding some lettuce
    • Not much interesting to say. Chop, chop...
My quick thoughts are:
  • Lets start with the obvious. There was no discernible advantage during food prep. Nor did I really expect there to be. But we are doing this for sport; right? I didn't feel the knife cut any better than my normal routine which stops at 3K. Perhaps there might be some advantage to super precise work with protein? With vegetables? I dont think there is. Any gains in sharpness moving from a 3K edge to HHT are negligible in comparison to everything else that is going on (at least in my case). For instance, when cutting a nice juicy onion in half, the Ginga is prone to stiction. That 'drag' is going to drown out any perceptible increase in sharpness - and it did.
  • My main concern was how fragile the edge might be. I was initially careful when cutting but then relaxed to normal. The only thing I would note is that the edge grabbed the board more than usual. I would say this put the edge at slightly more risk to failing under torsional or shear forces when in contact with the board. I have tried to eliminate this in my technique - I attempt to keep all the cutting forces co-planar with the edge. Prep involved a fair amount of responsible and controlled board-banging. No visible damage. I am impressed!
  • Sharpness... I suppose this is the main one eh?? I thought it would remain 'sharp' but lose HHT. I have never done this so I was surprised to find the knife can still pop hairs! But I would say it is doing it less reliably. Some dont 'pop' quite as well. They split instead - HHT2. In some regions the hair violins instead (although this is HHT1... I dont consider it to be a worthwhile category - cut or nothing right?). All areas seem to shave as nicely as I would expect from a kitchen knife.
I guess I learned:
  • Acute angles can withstand responsible use
  • Very sharp edges aren't necessarily taken back to 'normal' after one meal
:)
Click to expand...

Beautiful write-up.
 
Kawa said:
Note to myself:

You are among people who actually worn complete stones, and not just the 200 gritt soft ones,
some even multiple times,
while using and rotating through multiple 'same but different' stones,

You are among people who think splitting a hair after 16k is cheating,
who excuse themselves if they only treetop hair after thinning a knife too much,
and encourage themselves to play Beethoven' 7th at only 1k or 2k gritt.

It's hard to put into perspective where you stand at sharpening knives.
Your friends say you do good,
the family is impressed.
Even I was pretty satisfied myself lately,

Last year i found out
I climbed to the top of my ladder,
step by step
only to find out it was a housewives kitchenladder,
Not the one the window washer uses to go where mom can't reach.

Those guys are truly at a total different level

So, Dennis. What are you goint to do today? Paint and decorite the babies room???
Or back to grinding on the stones??

---

Sorry, Honey. Ill finish the room tomorrow, or the day after that.




Cheers guys, great topic
Click to expand...

Well that was eloquent! Personally I’m not sure that passing a HHT indicates much about your sharpening other than what your priorities are. And anyway, sharpening’s a personal thing. If your knives get sharper and satisfy the people who use the knives, that’s all that matters. This is at least what I tell myself all the time, and how I justify charging people for my work.
 
I got to HHT-3 with my little nakiri off of naniwa superstone 2k. (And a couple swipes on a loaded denim strop)

I know from experience that this kind of edge on this thin nakiri is not very durable on the board. I always add a micro bevel, but it worked for this challenge just fine.

The first video I tested on badger hair



Then I snipped some beard hairs. My beard hair is fairly coarse. So easier than a lot of hair.


 
I get knives plenty sharp for me to be satisfied. Not to be able to achieve HHT gives me a conclusion about my edges: they aren't there yet.
Sometimes I feel a have a knife sharper then before, 'a new record' if you want to give it a name. But I've never succeeded on a hanging hair. The only sound I hear is a hair laughing 😂 Passing a HHT isnt a goal per se, but to me it feels like you need a almost perfect edge to pass this test. All other tests will settle for less. So if I start succeeding on hair, I figured, it's some kind of 'proof' I'm getting better.

If I philosophize this wrong, let me know.
 
Kawa said:
Note to myself:

You are among people who actually worn complete stones, and not just the 200 gritt soft ones,
some even multiple times,
while using and rotating through multiple 'same but different' stones,

You are among people who think splitting a hair after 16k is cheating,
who excuse themselves if they only treetop hair after thinning a knife too much,
and encourage themselves to play Beethoven' 7th at only 1k or 2k gritt.

It's hard to put into perspective where you stand at sharpening knives.
Your friends say you do good,
the family is impressed.
Even I was pretty satisfied myself lately,

Last year i found out
I climbed to the top of my ladder,
step by step
only to find out it was a housewives kitchenladder,
Not the one the window washer uses to go where mom can't reach.

Those guys are truly at a total different level

So, Dennis. What are you goint to do today? Paint and decorite the babies room???
Or back to grinding on the stones??

---

Sorry, Honey. Ill finish the room tomorrow, or the day after that.




Cheers guys, great topic
Click to expand...
You are a huge dork, I love this.
 
stringer said:
I got to HHT-3 with my little nakiri off of naniwa superstone 2k. (And a couple swipes on a loaded denim strop)

I know from experience that this kind of edge on this thin nakiri is not very durable on the board. I always add a micro bevel, but it worked for this challenge just fine.

The first video I tested on badger hair



Then I snipped some beard hairs. My beard hair is fairly coarse. So easier than a lot of hair.


Click to expand...

I'm beginning to get that sense. Still, a fun exercise. Thanks for throwing vids up too. Seems like you have had somewhat similar returns on investment. It'll pass HHT-3, not as easily as a razor, and be pretty fragile on the board. I can't imagine using an edge like that in a production environment.
 
captaincaed said:
I'm beginning to get that sense. Still, a fun exercise. Thanks for throwing vids up too. Seems like you have had somewhat similar returns on investment. It'll pass HHT-3, not as easily as a razor, and be pretty fragile on the board. I can't imagine using an edge like that in a production environment.
Click to expand...
Sometimes it's surprising what can and CAN NOT survive in a production environment.

Like a 10k edge isn't to high of a grit to use, depending on steel. Sharpness doesn't disappear the second it touches a poly board. It will cut crusty roasts followed by cutting cucumbers and tomatoes. I will say it's quicker/easier to refresh edges that are 6k and under though.
 
Kawa said:
I get knives plenty sharp for me to be satisfied. Not to be able to achieve HHT gives me a conclusion about my edges: they aren't there yet.
Sometimes I feel a have a knife sharper then before, 'a new record' if you want to give it a name. But I've never succeeded on a hanging hair. The only sound I hear is a hair laughing 😂 Passing a HHT isnt a goal per se, but to me it feels like you need a almost perfect edge to pass this test. All other tests will settle for less. So if I start succeeding on hair, I figured, it's some kind of 'proof' I'm getting better.

If I philosophize this wrong, let me know.
Click to expand...

Passing the HHT is mostly about having a very refined apex. Only a very thin apex can slip into the gap between the hair scales and make them pop. An edge like this is not very useful for food. The nakiri I sharpened is not very useful for food. I mostly use it to test new stones and it is ridiculously thin behind the edge. If I needed to actually cut food with it I would have to add a micro bevel or contact with the board will cause it to roll and chip.

captaincaed said:
I'm beginning to get that sense. Still, a fun exercise. Thanks for throwing vids up too. Seems like you have had somewhat similar returns on investment. It'll pass HHT-3, not as easily as a razor, and be pretty fragile on the board. I can't imagine using an edge like that in a production environment.
Click to expand...

This nakiri never gets used in a professional environment. I will try again with a less ridiculous knife when I get a chance.
 
Just curious,

Would anyone of you be able to achieve a HHT on, lets say, a Wusthof or Zwilling chefsknife?
I'm meening, not adjusting the edge to super thing or anything crazy.
Just to get it all in perspective: only achievable with decent and/or fine grained (carbon) steel? Or also with decent or moderate knives?
 
Kawa said:
Just curious,

Would anyone of you be able to achieve a HHT on, lets say, a Wusthof or Zwilling chefsknife?
I'm meening, not adjusting the edge to super thing or anything crazy.
Just to get it all in perspective: only achievable with decent and/or fine grained (carbon) steel? Or also with decent or moderate knives?
Click to expand...

I can do the same thing with any knife. But the thicker the knife is behind the edge the harder it's going to be. That's actually the determining factor for this kind of thing, not the quality or hardness of the steel. It's just that better steel makes the task of creating a refined crisp apex easier.

A thicker behind the edge knife with a coarse grain and soft steel is much less forgiving, but it can be done. Especially if you finish with some edge trailing strokes to deliberately raise a wire edge. The wire edge would be useless on a cutting board but will pass the HHT.
 
Kawa said:
Just curious,

Would anyone of you be able to achieve a HHT on, lets say, a Wusthof or Zwilling chefsknife?
I'm meening, not adjusting the edge to super thing or anything crazy.
Just to get it all in perspective: only achievable with decent and/or fine grained (carbon) steel? Or also with decent or moderate knives?
Click to expand...
Thin edge will help tons. With those steels, I wouldn't be surprised if resin bonded diamond stones would help achieve a cleaner edge
 
Kawa said:
Just curious,

Would anyone of you be able to achieve a HHT on, lets say, a Wusthof or Zwilling chefsknife?
I'm meening, not adjusting the edge to super thing or anything crazy.
Just to get it all in perspective: only achievable with decent and/or fine grained (carbon) steel? Or also with decent or moderate knives?
Click to expand...

I'm a newb at sharpening myself, and I can't as yet sharpen (with good technique, not by leaving a wire) well enough now to go HHT 5 with any blade. That said, I have a 17 year old Mundial Olivier chef's knife that I use as a beater or a high-risk cutter. After I sharpen it, it's absolutely sharp enough to shave hair off your arm easily - just as easily as my high-end blades. It just won't hold that edge for long, and it's super wedgy and heavy compared to my finer knives. The issue isn't making an edge that can cut something once, it's making one that can keep cutting it.

I would imagine that the badasses here on the board who have forgotten more about sharpening than I know could pass an HHT with a butter knife, given the time. You just wouldn't want to try to cut food with it after, because the edge wouldn't last past half the cut. You wouldn't try to cut a watermelon with a straight razor, and that's using high-quality steel!
 
Just an update. I got my superfine hair to catch and pop. I finished my gyuto on my king 4000, and stropped on leather with green compound. It's what I would consider to be the upper limit of a kitchen knife edge. (Unless you are cutting fish or something)
 
I wanted to ask. Does it have to be the hht on 1000ish grit. Or are we going for just arm hair shaving, because I just feel like that would be the better kitchen edge tbh.
 
jwthaparc said:
I wanted to ask. Does it have to be the hht on 1000ish grit. Or are we going for just arm hair shaving, because I just feel like that would be the better kitchen edge tbh.
Click to expand...

I asked a similar question... I think the thread is really just a vehicle and challenge for us to strive for better technique. From @captaincaed

captaincaed said:
HOWEVER! This is a choose your own adventure. If you want to get to HHT by any means necessary, go for it. If you’ve never done it before, it’s empowering to know that you can. Love to hear what progressions you find work well.
Click to expand...

That said, the lower the grit and the higher the HHT will get you the most street-cred :cool:. If you can slice hairs silently off tarmac in under 30 seconds, you will ensure your place in the vast halls of Valhalla feasting and drinking mead with Odin.
 
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