Just Another Dam Project - Pass HHT on your kitchen knife

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Kawa said:
Tip: keep practising for the next 4 years.

Just kidding..
and not...

It's not that your technique needs improvement to get to HHT.
You will get better over time doing the same thing over and over.

Brings me to how this topic started:
You can't get to HHT just by trying hard for a month (februari challenge right?)
At januari 31th you were allready at the level to be able to do the trick, or you were not.
Ofcourse sharpening everyday for a month will improve your sharpening, but if it was that easy to get a really straight/steady edge in a months practise, everyone had sharp knives in their drawer, right?

There are a lot of ways to get to Rome in sharpening.
Some swear you never do edge trailing when deburring, some swear the exact opposite.
They are both right because they master what they do.

----

Doing HHT of a 1k stone is endgame level. It's beating Shao Kahn, being faster then Hamilton or Rossi in his glory days, or running through a Champions League teams defense in Messi style.
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I think that you assume that sharpening is harder than what it is. Creating a sharp apex is fairly easy. Given enough time each day and good stones even a novice will be able to achieve to pass HHT in 30 days. Perhaps not on 1K stone, but pass the test.
It is much harder to understand and mantain the geometry, understand how to blend the bevels, understand the difference in grits/performance and keep the knife cutting ability top notch. This is what takes the most time to master - understaning of the knife and not the repetetive motions.
 
Ruso said:
I think that you assume that sharpening is harder than what it is. Creating a sharp apex is fairly easy. Given enough time each day and good stones even a novice will be able to achieve to pass HHT in 30 days. Perhaps not on 1K stone, but pass the test.
It is much harder to understand and mantain the geometry, understand how to blend the bevels, understand the difference in grits/performance and keep the knife cutting ability top notch. This is what takes the most time to master - understaning of the knife and not the repetetive motions.
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I think it is easy to learn, hard to master

I dont believe any novice that starts today will be able to get that perfect clean edge to do a solid HHT in 30 days. Just look at all the sharpening problem topics popping up every day. Those arent all question from people who started max 30 days or so ago.
You might have forgotten how it all started for you, many many years ago :).


Things like, keeping the exact angle every time you check and put the knife on the stones again, isnt as simple as it sounds.
Even with sharpy, you can check and see if you did right or wrong, but the moment you put the knife on the stone again you can only hope your adjustment (or not) has the right effect.
Feeling what a stone does or should do, on different knives and such, is something that comes with years, not with days.

edit:
another thing crossing my mind is the transition towards the belly of a knife. 'Raise your holding hand'. The theory is clear. Practise shows the belly remains hard for quite a long time.
 
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I imagine passing HHT on a mid grit stone is mostly about making the stone behave like a higher grit stone, by controlling the conditioning of the surface and pressure. I don't understand how you can create that kind of refined apex otherwise.

And you're equating a HHT edge with "perfection". It's not perfection, it's a HHT edge. You can have non-HHT passing edges that are better for kitchen work.

That said, I'm no expert sharpener.
 
You all are right about me probably romantising the HHT too much.

Might be because I dont get there yet.
 
ian said:
I imagine passing HHT on a mid grit stone is mostly about making the stone behave like a higher grit stone, by controlling the conditioning of the surface and pressure. I don't understand how you can create that kind of refined apex otherwise.

And you're equating a HHT edge with "perfection". It's not perfection, it's a HHT edge. You can have non-HHT passing edges that are better for kitchen work.

That said, I'm no expert sharpener.
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But you can become one, in only 30 days if I read correctly :p
 
Kawa said:
You all are right about me probably romantising the HHT too much.

Might be because I dont get there yet.
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I think you're making it out to be a bridge too far. I didn't expect to get there for a couple weeks. However, thinking about these things ...
ian said:
I imagine passing HHT on a mid grit stone is mostly about making the stone behave like a higher grit stone, by controlling the conditioning of the surface and pressure. I don't understand how you can create that kind of refined apex otherwise.
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... I could actually start to get it to work.

Steady hand angle is key, pure muscle memory, and that's one reason I set this as a daily goal for a month. As a home cook, I just don't do that many reps normally, but I knew I would if I made it a priority (and sacrificed my beater for the trial).

I'd say give it a go, 15" per day. Get used to staring at the knife, the stone, the angle, your hand placement. Use the same knife all month so you get used to seeing the same darn thing. Even if you're not HHT-Stringer, you're going to be a mile ahead of old Kawa. Also, I stupidly just realized your image is a bike, and not a frog :facepalm:

Personally, I had another edge failure. Got it back to HHT-2/3, cutting waves in paper towel. Cut some bread, edge rolled. I'm learning a ton about how far I can push my microbevel angle! I'm internalizing the idea that an HHT edge is a cool trick but not useful for bulk veg prep. Maybe sushi, but I don't make that at home.
 
A succeeding HHT isnt a goal per se.
Its 'prove' that you are able to get a very clean refined edge.
From there it is easy to roughen the edge a bit on a medium stone to get it grabby enough for food prep.

A regular coarse (or medium edge with enough bite) can mask the fact that your edge isnt great/clean enough. The 'saw' will cut food anyway.

That's probably why I lean towards 'if you are able to get a knife HHT sharp, you are able to create a perfect edge'. The refinedness of a HHT edge isnt good for normal food prep I know, but it's all in the 'being able to'.
From there it is only choosing/touching with the right finishing stone. Atleast you know for sure you have the skills to create the perfect edge.

Maybe I should let this theory go... 🤷‍♂️
 
Kawa said:
A succeeding HHT isnt a goal per se.
Its 'prove' that you are able to get a very clean refined edge.
From there it is easy to roughen the edge a bit on a medium stone to get it grabby enough for food prep.

A regular coarse (or medium edge with enough bite) can mask the fact that your edge isnt great/clean enough. The 'saw' will cut food anyway.

That's probably why I lean towards 'if you are able to get a knife HHT sharp, you are able to create a perfect edge'. The refinedness of a HHT edge isnt good for normal food prep I know, but it's all in the 'being able to'.
From there it is only choosing/touching with the right finishing stone. Atleast you know for sure you have the skills to create the perfect edge.

Maybe I should let this theory go... 🤷‍♂️
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If it's as simple as refinement on the edge. I will give it a try again, with the idea of refinement in mind. Condition the surface after raising a burr, raise some slurry, and work it like a natural stone.
 
Clearly you need a perfect apexed edge aswell, not just refined.
(refined for me means highly polished/ without teeth/ slick/ smooth) but meaning of these words may differ due to translation. English is not my main.
 
Kawa said:
Clearly you need a perfect apexed edge aswell, not just refined.
(refined for me means highly polished/ without teeth/ slick/ smooth) but meaning of these words may differ due to translation. English is not my main.
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Thats what refinement means to me too.
 
Kawa said:
That's probably why I lean towards 'if you are able to get a knife HHT sharp, you are able to create a perfect edge'. The refinedness of a HHT edge isnt good for normal food prep I know, but it's all in the 'being able to'.
From there it is only choosing/touching with the right finishing stone. Atleast you know for sure you have the skills to create the perfect edge.

Maybe I should let this theory go... 🤷‍♂️
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I agree with your sentiments.

Perfect is a slippery concept. It means different things to different people. I wouldnt cast HHT as a 'perfect' edge. Instead i view it more as a measure of how much control you have during sharpening. If you can pass HHT on a kitchen knife it could indicate an degree of skill/finesse. That said, I wouldnt argue that ability is important or useful in kitchen knives.

I was thinking about the grit at which you can pass HHT.

The razor community emphasises different things to the kitchen knife community. One point I took away from the razor community is the importance of setting a bevel. Put another way - you cant polish a turd. If you havent done your job at 1000 grit, you aren't going to be able to fix it by moving up to 3000 or 5000 grit (as a general rule). Being reductionist, 98% of the job is done at low grits. All the higher grits are polishing (refinement if you will). I don't think the kitchen knife community is as militant about emphasising that point of view. Similarly, the razor community is also more militant about advising sharpeners not to progress to the next grit until you have completely removed the scratch pattern from the previous grit.

The importance of low grits for kitchen cutlery is alluded to when we talk about burr formation. It is a solid indicator that an apex has been formed. But you dont necessarily have to raise a visible or easily detected burr. The size of the burr depends on steel, pressure and technique. In fact, one definition of 'perfect' sharpening might include using the highest pressure possible without raising a 'large' burr. If that sounds silly, consider this: the razor community see burrs as a symptom of honing with too much pressure. Again; different tools, different community, different perspective - but useful in recognising there are many routes to a useful result.

Bouncing off those ideas; passing HHT may show you how much performance you can extract out of your grit progression. The lower the grit you pass HHT, the less you may need higher grits (depending on your objectives). It may also be an indicator that your skill is capable of taking advantage of the next grit.


But yeah... do HHT for fun! If you have no complaints in the kitchen... then regardless of HHT, you are sharpening right!
 
I finally got it to catch and pop. Using my chosera 800, followed by light stropping with green compound at a very low angle. However I had a really hard time with getting it on video. So I finally just ended up filming this.



Edit: if you wonder whats up with my chosera in the background, I had to epoxy butchers twine around the outside to make sure it held together tightly after it cracked in half. When I dropped it from about 4 inches onto its face on cement.
 
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captaincaed said:
That's what I'm talking about, nice clean edge. How's it feel?

Also, write back how it holds up in the kitchen afterward!
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Feels good right now. I will use it today, so we'll see. I'll post another video of the edge after I'm done cooking. I dont expect today will be particularly hard on the edge or anything. I'm mostly planning to cut up some potatoes.

Btw, I just realized your thing under your name was a cigarette.
 
Had a thought as I was stuck on 60 grit at work. See if that does it. But mayyybe that's more like a 10k deburr 🤪🤷‍♂️



Edit And a choil shot 🙈
IMG_20210210_160037.jpg

And some banging.. Yup that's a bit fragile
 
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Ok, so I used that knife for dinner tonight. It mostly cut potatoes, I used the tip to slice open some meat, and minced some garlic. The results were about what I expected, the edge is not nearly as clean now. It did still cut the paper towel, just more rough. When touching the edge it still has that grabby sharp feeling.
 
I haven't been trying this in earnest yet, but do now occasionally try a hair after sharpening stuff (usually just on my King 1.2k for a couple of mins). No cutting of hair to be had at all I'm afraid, but usually 'violin-ing', or splitting the hair.

Though I have just got a diamond plate so my stones are all now properly flat for the first time in a while, so I may have to try properly. Whilst I'm pretty happy with the edges I get and their durability, this is definitely a fun experiment!
 
cotedupy said:
I haven't been trying this in earnest yet, but do now occasionally try a hair after sharpening stuff (usually just on my King 1.2k for a couple of mins). No cutting of hair to be had at all I'm afraid, but usually 'violin-ing', or splitting the hair.

Though I have just got a diamond plate so my stones are all now properly flat for the first time in a while, so I may have to try properly. Whilst I'm pretty happy with the edges I get and their durability, this is definitely a fun experiment!
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It's fun, until it's frustrating.

The diamond plate will be a huge help though.
 
jwthaparc said:
It's fun, until it's frustrating.

The diamond plate will be a huge help though.
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Haha! Yeah, I suspect I might have to go to quite a fine grit to do it, and pay more attention to stropping rather than just kinda wiping blades on a phone book. And even then I wouldn't have much confidence in my ability to be able to get there! Vamos a ver...
 
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