Laser sujihikis

[matto]

I own this Mazaki 270 Sujihiki and I like it a lot, but I'm not entirely convinced I love it for slicing meat (beef roasts, etc). It's very light at the tip, which is kinda cool from the perspective of handling. But when slicing a roast it's a little strange having no weight at the end and such a fine tip. I dunno, I'll have to see if it grows on me.

I'm intrigued to try a laser suji, so yesterday I ordered this Gesshin Ginga W2 270 Suji . I've seen a few folks say thin Suji's are not great for slicing meat because they are too flexy, and slicing is better when the suji is stiff (which the Maz is). But others say the Gesshin is their favorite suji, and Doug at JKI said I won't find this one too flexy for slicing.. So I went for it.

But then today I got the email from JNS that this Tanaka Yoshikazu Sujihiki 270mm Blue 1 came up for sale. I couldn't resist so I snagged it. So now I have two lasers to try.

The only way to know is to try them all, right?

I'm also thinking of trying a heartier, stiffer suji. I see a lot of love for the Toyamas (and I love my Toyama Gyutos) so I'm tempted to order a Suji as well. But I noticed that it's actually lighter than my Mazaki (155g for the Toyama vs 165g for the Maz) so I wonder if this is really the right direction if I'm looking for a heartier feeling suji? It does have more toward the tip than the Maz though so maybe it's still worth a shot?

 

[matto]

Since threads are worthless without pictures, here's a shot of the 270 Maz together with the matching 180 and 150 petty.

I use the 180 quite a bit. I haven't used the 150 yet. I seem to always grab the 180 instead... or a paring knife

 

[GorillaGrunt]

My Mazaki is one of my favorites. I prefer a stiffer one, especially when also using it as a line knife or chef knife. If you want thinness and stiffness height can help with that; Shiro Kamo and Kurosaki Raijin I’d call both laser thin but at 40mm height they don’t bend as much as say a Kagero or Masamoto at 35mm.

for a more robust narrow one check out Hinoura too

 

[deltaplex]

Can go the complete opposite route and get the Wakui WH, it's ~3x the weight of the tanaka and 2x the weight of a toyama:

https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/kaeru-kasumi-workhorse-sujihiki-270mm/
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/eur-kaeru-wakui-wh-sujihiki-270.59648/

 

[matto]

Can go the complete opposite route and get the Wakui WH, it's ~3x the weight of the tanaka and 2x the weight of a toyama:

https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/kaeru-kasumi-workhorse-sujihiki-270mm/

I saw that. > 300g. Haha. I feel like that might be too far for a slicer?

 

[deltaplex]

I believe I've seen other forum members express a preference for heavier sujis when using them for slicing things like roasts. I guess it would depend on how/what your uses and preferences are, but you did say the Mazaki didn't seem well suited for the roast slicing task and presumably the two lighter acquisitions would behave similarly near the tip.

 

[Jovidah]

I have a Maz 270 (kasumi) and quite love it as a slicer... never really had issues with the tip. It's actually really quite stiff - especially when compared to your average far thinner and lighter suji.
The one comparison I'm more curious about is to what extend a 270 suji is really better than a 270 gyuto as a slicer. Yes there's more drag to a taller blade, but it's also easier to make it stiffer.
But I can see your argument; less taper might actually be better on a stiff slicer. Isn't Heji in that category?

 

[johnvburke100]

i'm way less knowledgeable than most KKF members seem to be--my interest in a slicer is mainly to use with fish, specifically the heavily salted belly lox from a certain Manhattan store. That stuff is one of my favorite foods in all the world and I've been trying to reproduce it at home; we get terrific local salmon in San Francisco but so far all the recipes I've found are for gravlax, excellent stuff but not the stuff the waiter warns customers about. Shipping coast to coast approximately DOUBLES the cost and even I don't love it enough to justify that kind of extravagance, so the quest for DIY continues. Meanwhile a really good slicer would be a great asset, gravlax or belly lox or--who knows? Sable?

 

[tch757]

I own this Mazaki 270 Sujihiki and I like it a lot, but I'm not entirely convinced I love it for slicing meat (beef roasts, etc). It's very light at the tip, which is kinda cool from the perspective of handling. But when slicing a roast it's a little strange having no weight at the end and such a fine tip. I dunno, I'll have to see if it grows on me.

I'm intrigued to try a laser suji, so yesterday I ordered this Gesshin Ginga W2 270 Suji . I've seen a few folks say thin Suji's are not great for slicing meat because they are too flexy, and slicing is better when the suji is stiff (which the Maz is). But others say the Gesshin is their favorite suji, and Doug at JKI said I won't find this one too flexy for slicing.. So I went for it.

But then today I got the email from JNS that this Tanaka Yoshikazu Sujihiki 270mm Blue 1 came up for sale. I couldn't resist so I snagged it. So now I have two lasers to try.

The only way to know is to try them all, right?

I'm also thinking of trying a heartier, stiffer suji. I see a lot of love for the Toyamas (and I love my Toyama Gyutos) so I'm tempted to order a Suji as well. But I noticed that it's actually lighter than my Mazaki (155g for the Toyama vs 165g for the Maz) so I wonder if this is really the right direction if I'm looking for a heartier feeling suji? It does have more toward the tip than the Maz though so maybe it's still worth a shot?

How do I convert the “DKK” pricing to US dollars?

 

[Strozzi]

Hit the drop down in the upper left, at the very top switch to your currency.

 

[matto]

Well I got the two "lasers", and they are more different than expected.

The JNS Tanaka is less tall, has a thicker spine, and is less flexy than the Gesshin Ginga. I won't have my scale back until Thursday but the Tanaka clearly heavier, despite the specs claiming it is lighter.

The Gesshin feels more nimble in the hand.. possibly entirely because of the weight.

The Gesshin appears thinner behind the edge and is sharp as hell out of the box. The Tanaka, not so much.

EDIT: I just measured them both with calipers and the Tanaka is actually not thicker behind the edge. It's actually slightly thinner. The Tanaka doesn't get thicker until you've gone about half way up the edge.

The Tanaka has a pretty cool damascus pattern though!

 

[JASinIL2006]

2 laser sujis = @matto is twice as cool as before.

 

[matto]

2 laser sujis = @matto is twice as cool as before.

Yes, indeed. But unfortunately 2 times zero still equals zero.

 

[Jason183]

Well I got the two "lasers", and they are more different than expected.

The JNS Tanaka is less tall, has a thicker spine, and is less flexy than the Gesshin Ginga. I won't have my scale back until Thursday but the Tanaka clearly heavier, despite the specs claiming it is lighter.

The Gesshin feels more nimble in the hand.. possibly entirely because of the weight.

The Gesshin appears thinner behind the edge and is sharp as hell out of the box. The Tanaka, not so much.
The Tanaka has a pretty cool damascus pattern though!

View attachment 205028
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I’ve heard from many the JNS ootb edge weren’t impressive, I bought the 270mm white 1 Sujihiki 2 years ago, it couldn’t cut through paper ootb but after a quick touching up on stone it gets crazy sharp, still my sharpest slicer as of today.

 

[Cliff]

I have that JNS suji. In my experience, you need to drop down to a 300-500 grit stone to set the bevel and give it a full sharpening. When I did that, it got screaming sharp in no time.

At first, I just gave it a light sharpening starting around 2K, and that did not do the job.

 

[matto]

I have that JNS suji. In my experience, you need to drop down to a 300-500 grit stone to set the bevel and give it a full sharpening. When I did that, it got screaming sharp in no time.

At first, I just gave it a light sharpening starting around 2K, and that did not do the job.

Thanks. And how do you like it overall?

 

[Cliff]

Once I gave it that full sharpening, I love it. I have a 300 Ashi Ginga as well. They are both special. I tend to keep the Ashi at a higher polish, so I use them for different things. But I really enjoy both.

 

[matto]

I tend to keep the Ashi at a higher polish, so I use them for different things. But I really enjoy both.

Dammit. I was supposed to sell one of these, and you're going to make me want to keep both.

 

[Cliff]

If I could only keep one..., that's a hard one. From a practical standpoint, the choice is obvious. But that Damascus is beautiful. Those are the knives I reach for when I'm alone in the kitchen, paying attention to what I'm doing.

 

[matto]

If I could only keep one..., that's a hard one. From a practical standpoint, the choice is obvious. But that Damascus is beautiful. Those are the knives I reach for when I'm alone in the kitchen, paying attention to what I'm doing.

I'm curious for what kinds of tasks you find one excels over the other?

The Ginga is definitely thinner at the back of the blade, so if wedging is a concern it must to better. But it's also significantly more flexible. I can't imagine it'll be a good choice for carving a large slice of cooked meat.

 

[Cliff]

I really don't think one is better than the other. From a practical standpoint, I would keep the Ginga.

Both will get extremely keen. The Tanaka will hold its edge longer, in particular with a lower grit finish. For me, retention is not much of a concern. If you slice a lot of crusty roasts, maybe that would be an issue, but even then I don't think so.

The Ginga has more flex, so you might possibly prefer it for breaking down some fish. Again, I think the differences are small.

ETA - I have a 300 Ginga and a 270 Tanaka, so, for me, the Ginga works on really big roasts. I don't find it too flexy. For me the difference has more to do with how I sharpen them than with the knives themselves.

 

[Choppin]

I had the Toyama suji. Distal taper on Toyamas in general is not as dramatic as on Mazakis, which makes it stiffer, up to the last 2-3cm or so at the tip. It’s a forum favorite and feels quite mighty in hand.

I’m waiting on a Heiji 270 suji. Should be quite still as well.

 

[Cliff]

Have been thinking about a Heiji...

 

[matto]

I had the Toyama suji. Distal taper on Toyamas in general is not as dramatic as on Mazakis, which makes it stiffer, up to the last 2-3cm or so at the tip. It’s a forum favorite and feels quite mighty in hand.

I’m waiting on a Heiji 270 suji. Should be quite still as well.

Yeah I think I'm ordering a 300 Watanabe just to try it.

 

[matto]

Well I bonded with the JNS Tanaka tonight.

First, I stropped it and looked at the edge with a jewelers lens. I realized that it is actually sharp. It's just that the micro-bevel is at a fairly wide angle, so cutting a receipt at a really low angle doesn't work well because the shoulder moves the receipt before it cuts. But the receipt cuts reasonably well at a higher angle, so I decided to use it without sharpening it.

I put it in a head-to-head with the Mazaki to see which was more effective at shaving thin slices off a rump roast. Both cut the meat just fine, but it was noticeably easier to cut super thin slices with the JNS Tanaka. The Maz was more likely to go in a little more and cut thicker slices. Keep in mind I'm taking just a little. I was shaving the thinnest possible slices.

I was surprised since they are both equally thin behind the edge, and the total spine thickness of the mazaki isn't that much thicker mid-blade. The main difference in the blades is that the Tanaka is quite a bit shorter than the Mazaki (height, not length). It's like a mini saber. So my theory is that the shorter blade somehow allowed me to press the blade into the meet and keep it more parallel, whereas the Mazaki wanted to tip in.

Whatever the reason was, the Tanaka won handily and earned a spot in the long-term rotation.

 

[Jason183]

Might also have to do with the grind, I don’t own a Mazaki, it seems liked convex grind on the primary bevel?

As for JNS, it’s almost flat-concave on the primary bevel, just liked a wide bevel grind on a Sujihiki, there’s cunning shinogi line along the blade, you won’t see it until you thin the blade surface, you can also feel it with you finger running down the blade. This kind of grind is better for thin slice.