M. Hinoura, Wakui, or Watanabe?

Japanese Knives - by Tokushu Knife
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Which gyuto? Why?

  • Wakui

    Votes: 16 31.4%

  • Watanabe

    Votes: 28 54.9%

  • M. Hinoura

    Votes: 7 13.7%
  • Total voters
    51
Haven't used a Hinoura. Watanabe / Toyama are excellent and have a pretty distinctive feel that just works, though I like the migaki convex ones much more than the KU Wat Pro nakiri which is more of a wide bevel.

Wakui is really good at the price point his white #2 stuff used to go for. Great profile, solid all around cutter, nice FnF. It seems like most inventory out there is at the significantly higher price points (like $300) where I'd say it's still quite good but there's a lot more competition.
 
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Seemore said:
Does that mean that standard procedure is eventually flattening convex bevels to get a knife stone ready?? Or that the Wat grind started out as concave?

It will! Thanks.
Click to expand...
Watoyama is convex, slightly complex in that it usually has two noticeable "shoulders" where the angle increases as you travel down the bevel to the edge. Hinoura, IME, comes slightly concave between edge and shinogi. I don't really consider them all that similar, even if they're both Sanjo made, soft clad, simple steel knives. Hinoura and Wakui use a variety of core steels, Watoyama only uses Blue #2.

I haven't used a Wakui, unless that's who made the Itinomonn stainless clad petty.
 
Seemore said:
Does that mean that standard procedure is eventually flattening convex bevels to get a knife stone ready?? Or that the Wat grind started out as concave?

It will! Thanks.
Click to expand...

Sorry. Mine is tucked away in it's box and it's been a while since I looked at it so I honestly couldn't remember well. So I went and got it out. When I was pondering getting into polishing, this was going to be one of my candidates so I rubbed the bevels on a high grit stone.

Let's see if some pictures help. :)

20230905_122253.jpg


20230905_122308.jpg


The grind is pretty much as @deltaplex said with two rather distinct shoulders and slightly complex grind that leans to being convex.
 
HumbleHomeCook said:
Sorry. Mine is tucked away in it's box and it's been a while since I looked at it so I honestly couldn't remember well. So I went and got it out. When I was pondering getting into polishing, this was going to be one of my candidates so I rubbed the bevels on a high grit stone.

Let's see if some pictures help. :)

View attachment 267185

View attachment 267186

The grind is pretty much as @deltaplex said with two rather distinct shoulders and slightly complex grind that leans to being convex.
Click to expand...
This is a Wat pro? I'm not well versed enough in the difference in the lines that Watanabe offers to say which is which.
 
deltaplex said:
Watoyama is convex, slightly complex in that it usually has two noticeable "shoulders" where the angle increases as you travel down the bevel to the edge. Hinoura, IME, comes slightly concave between edge and shinogi. I don't really consider them all that similar, even if they're both Sanjo made, soft clad, simple steel knives. Hinoura and Wakui use a variety of core steels, Watoyama only uses Blue #2.

I haven't used a Wakui, unless that's who made the Itinomonn stainless clad petty.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the details. I figured they’re different, and trying to flesh out the differences from users. Pictures don’t say a lot about this stuff.
 
myguidingmoonlight said:
This is just a two-way between Wakui and Watanabe/Toyama for me. Hinoura's grind was never noteworthy to me outside of a few specific cases.
Click to expand...
I agree that there's nothing noteworthy about Hinoura's grind, but I feel like that's the point? It's better setup for the owner to tune it to how they see fit than many many many other sharpeners. It takes a fair bit of use before you have to think about thinning out the geometry, and then you can ease the shoulders and get a slight convex on it without much heavy lifting. Watoyama has some variability in the sections of the primary grind(s) and how "seamless" they flow into each other. I prefer the grind on my Toyama, but it does require regular thinning of a convex bevel from the moment you start using it, and it typically requires a microbevel out of the box, if you want to avoid micro chipping.
 
This is not an "OR" question.

They are quite different knives with different areas in which they excel.

Wat ironclad were very hefty workhorses with great food release. Stainless clad are said to be similar but a little less hefty. The steel is hard and has long edge retention.

Wakui makes some great thin ("hairline") knives and some great heftier workhorses (but not as hefty as the Wat ironclad). My tsuchime fits in this category (but be aware that the wide bevels are convex and should be maintained this way. Not hard to learn but important.

Hinoura makes some knives with excellent fit and finish. Mine is white2 ("Hyakuren"). The steel is lovely to sharpen- it feels "creamy" to me. It's not a particularly hard HT. The grind is a fairly flat (slightly concave) wide bevel which works fine and is easy to maintain but isn't going to win any performance (food release or wedging) competitions.
 
All 3 are excellent.

I think Wakui is sort of the obvious choice. Hinoura I like a lot personally but mine has been flattened on stones so YMMV. Toyama I feel like is really different. Just massive in comparison, steel is hard, shape is polarizing. I suppose if I were really going to only have one knife, Id probably pick Toyama.
 
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