M. Hinoura, Wakui, or Watanabe?

[Seemore]

I’ve decided to take a break from buying knives and stones for awhile, redirecting the $ to more frivolous things like food, shoes and clothing. In case I change my mind before dinner time, does anyone have firsthand experience with two or all three of these?

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I have a Wat Pro 180 gyuto that is excellent. But as far as I'm concerned it's actually a Toyama.

 

[Rob McKenna]

Can I vote for all three?

 

[Seemore]

I have a Wat Pro 180 gyuto that is excellent. But as far as I'm concerned it's actually a Toyama.

And is yours a wide flat bevel or…?

 

[timebard]

Haven't used a Hinoura. Watanabe / Toyama are excellent and have a pretty distinctive feel that just works, though I like the migaki convex ones much more than the KU Wat Pro nakiri which is more of a wide bevel.

Wakui is really good at the price point his white #2 stuff used to go for. Great profile, solid all around cutter, nice FnF. It seems like most inventory out there is at the significantly higher price points (like $300) where I'd say it's still quite good but there's a lot more competition.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

And is yours a wide flat bevel or…?

The standard offering:

Gyuto knife | Kurouchi Japanese analog of western chef's knife

Japanese version of a western chef knives

www.kitchen-knife.jp

I'm not the best judge of these definitions but I don't know that I'd call them flat bevels. Flatter yes but not flat. In other words, far from stone ready. Wide yes. That make sense?

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

And for what it's worth, A-Frames has Wakui on sale right now:

Chef Knife. Wa Gyuto

Aframes Tokyo is a Japanese knife store located in Honolulu, HI that specializes in aesthetically pleasing and fully functional culinary tools for your kitchen. We have 13 years of experience in this business and carry all the most renowned brands and designs to bring you the best of the best.

aframestokyo.com

 

[nipsy]

I'm glad Watanabe is winning this, as I have one on order!

 

[Seemore]

In other words, far from stone ready.

Does that mean that standard procedure is eventually flattening convex bevels to get a knife stone ready?? Or that the Wat grind started out as concave?

That make sense?

It will! Thanks.

 

[deltaplex]

Does that mean that standard procedure is eventually flattening convex bevels to get a knife stone ready?? Or that the Wat grind started out as concave?

It will! Thanks.

Watoyama is convex, slightly complex in that it usually has two noticeable "shoulders" where the angle increases as you travel down the bevel to the edge. Hinoura, IME, comes slightly concave between edge and shinogi. I don't really consider them all that similar, even if they're both Sanjo made, soft clad, simple steel knives. Hinoura and Wakui use a variety of core steels, Watoyama only uses Blue #2.

I haven't used a Wakui, unless that's who made the Itinomonn stainless clad petty.

 

[DoYoon Kim]

Curious as to why mazaki wasn't included on the list?

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Does that mean that standard procedure is eventually flattening convex bevels to get a knife stone ready?? Or that the Wat grind started out as concave?

It will! Thanks.

Sorry. Mine is tucked away in it's box and it's been a while since I looked at it so I honestly couldn't remember well. So I went and got it out. When I was pondering getting into polishing, this was going to be one of my candidates so I rubbed the bevels on a high grit stone.

Let's see if some pictures help.

The grind is pretty much as @deltaplex said with two rather distinct shoulders and slightly complex grind that leans to being convex.

 

[deltaplex]

Sorry. Mine is tucked away in it's box and it's been a while since I looked at it so I honestly couldn't remember well. So I went and got it out. When I was pondering getting into polishing, this was going to be one of my candidates so I rubbed the bevels on a high grit stone.

Let's see if some pictures help.

View attachment 267185

View attachment 267186

The grind is pretty much as @deltaplex said with two rather distinct shoulders and slightly complex grind that leans to being convex.

This is a Wat pro? I'm not well versed enough in the difference in the lines that Watanabe offers to say which is which.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

This is a Wat pro? I'm not well versed enough in the difference in the lines that Watanabe offers to say which is which.

Yep. 180 gyuto.

 

[Seemore]

Watoyama is convex, slightly complex in that it usually has two noticeable "shoulders" where the angle increases as you travel down the bevel to the edge. Hinoura, IME, comes slightly concave between edge and shinogi. I don't really consider them all that similar, even if they're both Sanjo made, soft clad, simple steel knives. Hinoura and Wakui use a variety of core steels, Watoyama only uses Blue #2.

I haven't used a Wakui, unless that's who made the Itinomonn stainless clad petty.

Thanks for the details. I figured they’re different, and trying to flesh out the differences from users. Pictures don’t say a lot about this stuff.

 

[myguidingmoonlight]

This is just a two-way between Wakui and Watanabe/Toyama for me. Hinoura's grind was never noteworthy to me outside of a few specific cases.

 

[Seemore]

Curious as to why mazaki wasn't included on the list?

I don’t love the super slender elongated front end;

I don’t see any gyutos sub 210, only a petty (I didn’t mention the preference); and

I figured three was enough.

 

[M1k3]

¿Por qué no los tres?

 

[Seemore]

¿Por qué no los tres?

Zu wenig Kohlköpfe

 

[deltaplex]

This is just a two-way between Wakui and Watanabe/Toyama for me. Hinoura's grind was never noteworthy to me outside of a few specific cases.

I agree that there's nothing noteworthy about Hinoura's grind, but I feel like that's the point? It's better setup for the owner to tune it to how they see fit than many many many other sharpeners. It takes a fair bit of use before you have to think about thinning out the geometry, and then you can ease the shoulders and get a slight convex on it without much heavy lifting. Watoyama has some variability in the sections of the primary grind(s) and how "seamless" they flow into each other. I prefer the grind on my Toyama, but it does require regular thinning of a convex bevel from the moment you start using it, and it typically requires a microbevel out of the box, if you want to avoid micro chipping.

 

[Nemo]

This is not an "OR" question.

They are quite different knives with different areas in which they excel.

Wat ironclad were very hefty workhorses with great food release. Stainless clad are said to be similar but a little less hefty. The steel is hard and has long edge retention.

Wakui makes some great thin ("hairline") knives and some great heftier workhorses (but not as hefty as the Wat ironclad). My tsuchime fits in this category (but be aware that the wide bevels are convex and should be maintained this way. Not hard to learn but important.

Hinoura makes some knives with excellent fit and finish. Mine is white2 ("Hyakuren"). The steel is lovely to sharpen- it feels "creamy" to me. It's not a particularly hard HT. The grind is a fairly flat (slightly concave) wide bevel which works fine and is easy to maintain but isn't going to win any performance (food release or wedging) competitions.

 

[SwampDonkey]

I don’t love the super slender elongated front end;

I don’t see any gyutos sub 210, only a petty (I didn’t mention the preference); and

I figured three was enough.

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Mazaki White #2 Kuro Nashiji Santoku

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Only tried his 240s but been eyeing the santoku for a while.

 

[tcmx3]

All 3 are excellent.

I think Wakui is sort of the obvious choice. Hinoura I like a lot personally but mine has been flattened on stones so YMMV. Toyama I feel like is really different. Just massive in comparison, steel is hard, shape is polarizing. I suppose if I were really going to only have one knife, Id probably pick Toyama.

 

[shobudonnie]

Toyama/watanabe > Wakui > hinoura. But not by much. Not much at all.

 

[Seemore]

Wakui ….. be aware that the wide bevels are convex and should be maintained this way. Not hard to learn but important

Great - thanks. This is my comfort zone and one major point of interest.

 

[jedy617]

I love hinouras aogami super for what it's worth. Great to sharpen, get's super sharp, lasts a decent amount of time. Neither of the others do AS

 

[Nemo]

Curious as to why mazaki wasn't included on the list?

Because he made them all

Edit: Just to be clear- this is an ongoing joke. I'm not aware of any actual evidence that Mazaki actually makes every knife that comes out of Sanjo.

 

[Seemore]

All 3 are excellent.

I think Wakui is sort of the obvious choice.

I suppose if I were really going to only have one knife, Id probably pick Toyama.

Sounds like two out of three, LOL. Thanks.

 

[Nemo]

Hinoura and Wakui use a variety of core steels, Watoyama only uses Blue #2.

Watanabe is (or at least was) available in white2 for most of his pro knives.

 

[Nemo]

Great - thanks. This is my comfort zone and one major point of interest.

It's worth mentioning that I'm not sure if the grind on the Ku Wakuis is the same.