Dominick Maone
Well-Known Member
Thought? Would be nice to have a set of super vitrified diamonds or something like that in massdrop style.
Massdrop- Diamond Stones
- Thread starter Dominick Maone
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sounds cool to me.
I'm game
nakiriknaifuwaifu
Senior Member
Certainly something like this could be managed, but what would be the unique attraction to a massdropped stone vs. folks going and buying one at their preferred grit?
I've considered stones previously so happy to discuss the topic. Feel free to send me a PM.
I've considered stones previously so happy to discuss the topic. Feel free to send me a PM.
Bulk discount? Fancy KKF/BBB stylized branding?
Dominick Maone
Well-Known Member
I think it would have to be a set of stones. Low grit, mid grit, finisher. Seems like more and more of these higher vanadium steels around.
Some of the super vitrified stones are 450 each. Maybe a massdrop of 3 grits, $1000. I would think a lot of people would be in. But of course, BBB or someone with a supplier would need to be involved.
Obviously I do not want to divert sales from anyone, but this may be beneficial to the buyers, the middle man, and the manufacturer.
I suspect the margins on those stones are probably pretty thin and to get a sufficient number to make it a "mass" drop would probably require a substantial up front investment for the supplier.
I may be totally wrong though.
I may be totally wrong though.
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I find it surprising when industrial diamond is so cheap that these stones cost so much - is the tooling and process needed so much more than if shapton just used diamond grit in a glass stone instead of their usual abrasive that the cost would octuple.
I know the diamond vitirified stones are made differently to glass stones etc but that seems to be to preserve the diamond and reduce wear. In the small micron sizes is it really cost effective?
I know the diamond vitirified stones are made differently to glass stones etc but that seems to be to preserve the diamond and reduce wear. In the small micron sizes is it really cost effective?
I bet flattening is a major chore ans cost. The binder is crazy hard
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/diamond-stones.50236/post-765562
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...diamond-stones-be-flattened.53624/post-815630
Quality vit diamond stones are expensive, but last much longer than regular synthetic stones, cut all steels and stay flat for a very long time. If you want one set of stones, these will work very well and last a long time. In the long run you spend less money. On the other hand if you like stones and playing with all types then vit stones don’t make as much sense from the price perspective. They are still needed to effectively sharpen high wear resistant steels.
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...diamond-stones-be-flattened.53624/post-815630
Quality vit diamond stones are expensive, but last much longer than regular synthetic stones, cut all steels and stay flat for a very long time. If you want one set of stones, these will work very well and last a long time. In the long run you spend less money. On the other hand if you like stones and playing with all types then vit stones don’t make as much sense from the price perspective. They are still needed to effectively sharpen high wear resistant steels.
Man.... I know 1000 dollars is a deal for these stones, but man. I just literally don't have the money.
memorael
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So a while back, the straight razor people started noticing that when using a DMT plate for bevel setting, chips would later form. So some mad scientist did this study about sharpening using diamonds and the conclusion is that diamonds will basically embed into the knife so deeply that the forces generated would crack the edge and form extremely tiny fissures that eventually would form a chip and depending on the hardness and material sometimes it would keep growing until it was visible. I would recommend using Diamonds for sharpening at very steep angles just to form an edge to save time but sometimes the risk is just to great when sharpening some of the higher HRC knives.
I'd like to see a link to that study.
Interesting. Makes sense with plates. The bond on the abrasive is really strong with them. Curious if resin and vitrified have the same problem.
Kippington
A small green parrot
In my experience, it still happens. It has to do with stress concentrations formed by the super sharp edges on the diamonds.
Other abrasives are more prone to rounding over (blunting), and so their cutting action isn't so harsh. Diamonds tend to stay sharp, so they gouge out sharper grooves into the steel. The grooves are the main starting points for micro-cracks to seed - where lateral forces get concentrated.
On the flip side, diamond abrasives gouging out deep scratches are what we like about them. They work fast and form a toothy edge.
Kippington
A small green parrot
I should also mention, it's well known in the optics world that diamond abrasives will cause micro-cracking.
I believe this link skips to the correct part, where he explains what diamonds do to a surface of a glass lens. Further on in the video, he removes the micro-cracks:
I believe this link skips to the correct part, where he explains what diamonds do to a surface of a glass lens. Further on in the video, he removes the micro-cracks:
Huh. This is a little disappointing. However, sounds like it may be less of an issue in practice for knives, but is a practical disadvantage for very fine applications like razors and optics. Really interesting points raised.
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Interesting. Would love to see the link to this study too. Seems odd given that diamonds are used on commercial scale to sharpen all sorts of high wear steels. I've read that CBN is gentler in general because of its shape. Glass and steel are different so I wonder if what happens to glass can be extended to steel and if at all relevant in knives. I haven't experienced any excessive chip development on my knives sharpened with diamonds, but then again I am not a professional sharpener so my sample size is relatively small, plus I don't look at edges under a microscope anyway. My blunting seems to always come from deformation or wearing out, except for vg10 knives, those chip. I don't know what really is going on on the microscopic level though.
On the other hand I have noticed a large difference in edge holding between high and low alloy steels when diamonds are used for high wear steels. Before using diamonds it looked like the difference is minor, but once I started using diamonds I saw drastic improvement in high wear steels.
On the other hand I have noticed a large difference in edge holding between high and low alloy steels when diamonds are used for high wear steels. Before using diamonds it looked like the difference is minor, but once I started using diamonds I saw drastic improvement in high wear steels.
So let's say I'm going to sharpen something like s110v, k390, or maxamet. Which is going to be more likely to cause problems for the edge then? Aluminum oxide, or diamond stones?
If you don't mind indulging me on this question. Also if diamonds cause the problem, then what would the best option be cbn? Also like someone else said, is it even necessarily noticeable on something like a knife.
If you don't mind indulging me on this question. Also if diamonds cause the problem, then what would the best option be cbn? Also like someone else said, is it even necessarily noticeable on something like a knife.
Kippington
A small green parrot
For kitchen knives it's not so bad in practice, unless you want super shallow angles like the guys in the straight-razor world.
If it makes you feel any better, high carbon steel knives often have micro-cracks inside the steel. It's one of the difficulties of forming martensite.
memorael
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For kitchen knives it's not so bad in practice, unless you want super shallow angles like the guys in the straight-razor world.
If it makes you feel any better, high carbon steel knives often have micro-cracks inside the steel. It's one of the difficulties of forming martensite.
Interesting, I wasn't aware of these cracks in the steels structure. I think I mentioned that the problem isn't so noticeable or in fact negligible if you sharpen at a high angle say something like 30 degrees just to form the edge then thin the rest with something that wont create deep grooves like diamonds do. The longest lasting and sharpest edges I have achieved I have done using the following progression: DMT XXC or XC OR C at a large angle like 30 degrees, you should get a large burr in 3 seconds flat. I then jump to a finishing stone something like a coticule which is on the harder side works wonders here and using the same large angle or larger debur and basically butter knife the knife. I then do a regular progression on 1k, 3k, 5k and leave it at that or use a finishing stone. If I am going to finish on a king 6k which I love on some knives I skip the 5k, I also like the belgian coticule edge on simple carbon steels like white and on some INOX ones too like AEBL.
My theory on why this progression leaves a good edge is that the butter knifing part removes any long edge burrs or fatigued steel leaving a clean surface to work on. Any ideas to discuss are more than welcome.
Dominick Maone
Well-Known Member
Most importantly, let’s figure out how to get a massdrop going so we can get some more people using diamonds and get some more data.
memorael
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I wouldn't get to worried, try sharpening with a ALOX stone and if you dislike the process use a diamond stone. Slurries btw have the peculiar effect of breaking down the abrasive and giving a finer finish. I haven't used cubic boron nitride, I hear it works well but never worked with it.
Well in the case of the steels I just mentioned, I would go with resin bonded diamond (I can't afford vitrified diamond). If not then SiC at the very least. I haven't tried cbn either.
My point was more along the lines that if you have a high hardness, high vanadium carbide steel. You are likely going to want to go with diamond stones if you want a clean apex. (Excluding CBN)
