Mazaki History--without reading 88 pages?

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gwhphoto

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Hi, I was wondering if some of the really knowledgeable people could post a short history of the Mazaki blades? There seem to be a lot of changes in profiles, grinds, tapers, steels, knife types over the years. There seem to be a lot of differing thoughts about which are the best cutters/users.

I am particularly interested in his Aogami versions as I am not a fan of hyper reactive shiro. Why are the Ao ones so much more expensive (especially the damascus ones)? Also the gyuto or bunka blade shapes (and K tips are fine as I love those).

Thanks!
 
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I am by no means the best versed in his evolution. My very quick answer is that Mazaki has always made much more Shiro than Aogami. Prices reflect the scarcity. The knives started out as workhorses and have grown slimmer over the years; profiles have evolved. His Shiro is excellent, on the hard side while remaining tough. My own two cents are that unless I was a collector trying to get the full range of his work, I would stick with his Shiro. I don't say this to knock the others, I just don't see the premium otherwise.
 
It's not the shirogami that's reactive, it's the iron cladding.
The iron cladding itself isnt even that reactive compared to some others. But the stock grind on the cladding is coarse, and I've found that to have higher reactivity compared to after polishing it to a smoother finish.
 
Wow. Are those going prices for used ones? What do new ones go for?
Knifewear lists it at $1,750

CKC had one originally listed for $1,500, discounted to $1,200

Here’s a Blue 1 for $2,000
https://www.mydoya.com/Gyuto/?idx=116#prod_detail_review
Sellers original price was $1,300, which I suspect was already less than they paid. $1,000 seems like a good deal to me. Hand laminated Damascus doesn’t come cheap.

High end knife prices aren’t going down. I’d expect any new ones that come to market having a list price of at least $1,500.
 
Just snagged the 210 at Carbon Knife. Love the dagger tip!
I hope you enjoy it!

For the benefit of the thread, and in case you do love it so much you decide to pursue his blue steel outputs, there is a fairly widespread belief on here and amongst other knowledgeable people I have spoken to in person that he is anonymously producing lines for other brands currently.

There are sensitivities around this type of arrangement, and it has caused offence in the past when this forum has ‘outed’ makers who were previously working anonymously or under a pseudonym for the brand.

Nothing I write below will be news to anyone who has been interested in Mazaki for a while, but we might all have gotten it completely wrong. I will only say that these other knives bear certain similarities to the characteristics of Mazaki knives I have used, and so you will probably enjoy them too if you like the Mazaki and want to try something similar in blue steels.

First up is the Komorebi line. These come in a migaki blue #2 version, and a suminagashi blue #1.

I own the 210 blue #2 and like it a lot - it is my daily driver for smaller meals in rotation with my Y Tanaka white #1 suminagashi. It is quite stout at the spine above the heel, before tapering off to become very thin at the tip. Despite the sturdy spine, the grind is very aggressive and I would consider it a laser - there’s a LOT of core steel exposed at the edge. The bevels are hand finished on stones, leaving a pretty nice natural kasumi and making it easier to maintain geometry over time. The steel is nice - it sharpens quite well, holds its edge well and is quick ish to touch up, and has been fairly robust for me despite being so thin at the edge. The cladding is extremely reactive - the only other knives I own like this are my Mazaki and er, the other knives I suspect he might have been involved in lol. The overall profile is strikingly similar to my hon sanmai Mazaki - pictured for ref.

I haven’t seen the blue #1 suminagashi in person, so can’t comment on that.

The other line is the Yoake. These come in migaki or kurouchi blue #1.

I own the 210 migaki k-tip version. It is absolutely awesome - I love it so much and think it’s a bargain for what you get, regardless of the inconsistent F+F others have discussed here. It is a complete beast on the spine at the heel but very quickly tapers to a more reasonable width which it mostly maintains throughout the blade with a very slight taper (K-tips don’t tend to taper at the spine much, so this may be different for the gyutos - the actual tip of my copy is extremely thin though). The grind on this one is also very very aggressive, I pull this out whenever I need to get through a large quantity of very soft produce like ripe tomatoes and/or horizontal cuts, it just flies through these types of ingredients without squashing or bruising it. Not sure about the bevels on these, haven’t thinned mine yet. The steel is also great - my experience has been that it is more bitey than the komorebi, but then has a more slippery cutting feel once you’re through the tomato/pepper/chilli skin or whatever it is you’re cutting. I find it slower to raise an initial burr when sharpening than the komorebi, but after that I can get through a stone progression quicker - no idea why, thoughts welcome. The cladding on this is crazy reactive (are you noticing some patterns yet?) - this pic is from ONE ribeye and I cleaned it off straight after I finished slicing. I can’t comment on profile similarities as I have never handled a Mazaki K-tip, but I like this so much I have the irrational desire to get another, possibly bigger one in the gyuto profile.

I haven’t used the Shiro #2 hon sanmai yet, I picked it up recently at my local shop when I was reminiscing about how much I preferred the older profile and the guy pulled it out from under the counter and offered it for a price I couldn’t really say no to. No idea why it hadn’t been listed for sale, but I suppose that’s one reason to build a good relationship with your local shop owner!

I will edit my comment with thoughts once i’ve gotten to know it.

I’m not going to do a write up for the pre-laminated Mazaki’s now, i’ve already written too much and I didn’t love the 2021 pointy profile.
 

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Wow i checked the Komorebi, Yoake they are indeed very similar to Mazaki grind. Especially the Yoake, they have this supper agressive grind at the tip.
 
OK here is a question about the reactivity. What is the lacquer that often is applied to japanese carbon steel knives? I could put a coat of that up above the edge where the damascus begins.

Any thoughts and recommendations?
 
OK here is a question about the reactivity. What is the lacquer that often is applied to japanese carbon steel knives? I could put a coat of that up above the edge where the damascus begins.

Any thoughts and recommendations?

That’s just for storage. I think it’s not meant to be kept on the blade during use.

If you want a nonreactive blade, get something stainless clad.
 
In my experience the more reactive the blade the faster it will form the patina, which mean the reactive is stop faster. So you can also try to force a patina, then you don't have to deal with the reactive at all.
 
That’s just for storage. I think it’s not meant to be kept on the blade during use.

If you want a nonreactive blade, get something stainless clad.
I am fairly sure it’s also not actually food safe lacquer in most cases and will still eventually come off.

Just put a patina on it and you’ll be fine.

I’ve only ever had corrosion issues on reactive knives without a patina on them, and it always happened in transport or storage.
 
Is there a thread here about how to patina an entire blade? I don't want to cover up the beautiful damascus pattern, but some of the bright blue patinas I see look really beautiful.

If I put a good coat of camelia oil on the blade right before a cutting session will that help, or will it just rub off right away.

If I get some reactivity during a session, can I use white vinegar to remove it once I am done cutting?

Don't want to hijack my own thread. Are there other threads here (maybe shorter than the patina thread) that I should be posting these questions in?

Thanks!
 
Is there a thread here about how to patina an entire blade? I don't want to cover up the beautiful damascus pattern, but some of the bright blue patinas I see look really beautiful.

If I put a good coat of camelia oil on the blade right before a cutting session will that help, or will it just rub off right away.

If I get some reactivity during a session, can I use white vinegar to remove it once I am done cutting?

Don't want to hijack my own thread. Are there other threads here (maybe shorter than the patina thread) that I should be posting these questions in?

Thanks!
Camellia oil will rub straight off and give whoever eats your food the runs, it’s a laxative 😀

You could use flitz polish and a cotton pad, but honestly just get a stainless clad if you’re concerned about this, it’s not worth the effort.

You can either force a patina by submerging the blade in coffee/mustard/some other acid, or you could use it to slice a large joint of cooked meat and use a spare slice to rub over most of the blade, then leave the juices there for about 5 minutes before washing and drying off.
 
...If I get some reactivity during a session, can I use white vinegar to remove it once I am done cutting?....
Vinegar will cause patina not remove it, it's acetic acid ! That's why people use mustard to force a patina, because of the vinegar in it.
 
Is there a thread here about how to patina an entire blade? I don't want to cover up the beautiful damascus pattern, but some of the bright blue patinas I see look really beautiful.

If I put a good coat of camelia oil on the blade right before a cutting session will that help, or will it just rub off right away.

If I get some reactivity during a session, can I use white vinegar to remove it once I am done cutting?

Don't want to hijack my own thread. Are there other threads here (maybe shorter than the patina thread) that I should be posting these questions in?

Thanks!
A little research might be in order before spending $1k+ on a knife, or maybe start with something a little less serious but that's just me....a lot of your questions have been answered thousands of times, just an fyi. Maybe it's worth it to read the whole Mazaki thread.

Regardless here are some quick responses.

Patina will always cover up the damascus pattern to some extent. I will attach below a picture of how a hatsukokro komorebi damascus looks new, and with patina.

Camelia oil is used for longer term storage, not active use. White vinegar would remove patina yes, but then you would have to actively neutralize it before it creates its own patina. Baking soda and water or barkeepers friend will also work, sometimes even lemon juice is enough. Remember to wash normally after to neutralize the acid.

If you really do not like how patina looks, do not consider a carbon steel knife. They will patina, and patina heavily and if you don't want that, you will have to clean it after almost every use. If you want a bright shiny damascus, get a stainless damascus like a sukneari, that will not fade over time or patina.

I like natural patina appearances over a forced one, but that is just me. You can force one but again, it will cover up your damascus quite a bit if you etch it.

For that blue look that you mentioned, best for me to achieve that is cutting hot meat, and onions.


komorebi1.jpeg



With some very light patina after 2-3 uses. Can still see the damascus but obviously it is covered up:



You could also etch the knife like this, I believe this is with ferric chloride. Will be much more resistant to big color changes and patina...but of course it's black. So.

 
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A little research might be in order before spending $1k+ on a knife, or maybe start with something a little less serious but that's just me....a lot of your questions have been answered thousands of times, just an fyi. Maybe it's worth it to read the whole Mazaki thread.

Regardless here are some quick responses.

Patina will always cover up the damascus pattern to some extent. I will attach below a picture of how a hatsukokro komorebi damascus looks new, and with patina.

Camelia oil is used for longer term storage, not active use. White vinegar would remove patina yes, but then you would have to actively neutralize it before it creates its own patina. Baking soda and water or barkeepers friend will also work, sometimes even lemon juice is enough. Remember to wash normally after to neutralize the acid.

If you really do not like how patina looks, do not consider a carbon steel knife. They will patina, and patina heavily and if you don't want that, you will have to clean it after almost every use. If you want a bright shiny damascus, get a stainless damascus like a sukneari, that will not fade over time or patina.

I like natural patina appearances over a forced one, but that is just me. You can force one but again, it will cover up your damascus quite a bit if you etch it.

For that blue look that you mentioned, best for me to achieve that is cutting hot meat, and onions.


View attachment 246833


With some very light patina after 2-3 uses. Can still see the damascus but obviously it is covered up:

View attachment 246834

You could also etch the knife like this, I believe this is with ferric chloride. Will be much more resistant to big color changes and patina...but of course it's black. So.


All I can say to the above is thanks! I know this has been asked and answered many many times, but your very concise answer and photos really sums it up without me have to look for those thousands of different answers.

This is why I really appreciate these forums

And, that dark etch looks pretty bad-a$$. How do you do that?
 
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All I can say to the above is thanks! I know this has been asked and answered many many times, but your very concise answer and photos really sums it up without me have to look for those thousands of different answers.

This is why I really appreciate these forums

And, that dark etch looks pretty bad-a$$. How do you do that?
No problem. That is a dark etched kagekiyo. I believe it is either etched with ferric chloride, or soaking it in coffee, or some other method.
 
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