Need help troubleshooting every step to find out why my Victorinox Chef Knife can't cut paper

[Benuser]

Edge-leading can screw the apex in ways that edge-trailing really can't.

Have experienced exactly the opposite. Edge trailing is fine if you have to remove a lot of steel. Not the case here, it's only about abrading a burr, not creating a new bevel. Apart from the new, fresh burr edge trailing will raise.

 

[azn_knives_4l]

Have experienced exactly the opposite.

No disagreement to your experience but mine is valid, too.

 

[Cifer]

Use of a loupe or any other magnifier will show you that an apparently clean bevel is likely to show plenty of paint and swarf on top of the old edge. So, the bevels don't meet and there's no apex.
One single edge trailing edge may be enough to destroy the apex and cut a new (micro)bevel, and result in a fresh burr on the other side.

Ok, so x60 wouldn't be too much to get a clear picture, correct? I've heard people say that more than x20 or x30 is only good to asses details like the scratch pattern but not the broader picture, but I obviously don't know if that is true.

 

[Benuser]

Ok, so x60 wouldn't be too much to get a clear picture, correct? I've heard people say that more than x20 or x30 is only good to asses details like the scratch pattern but not the broader picture, but I obviously don't know if that is true.

Just haven't tried that high magnification, so can't tell you. With a conventional loupe, say a triplet, light quickly diminishes with larger magnification.

 

[mengwong]

As the saying goes, you can’t be too thin or too zoom

https://scienceofsharp.com/2016/11/03/optical-vs-electron-microscope/

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Thank you!

Would an an agressive stone not ruin the edge more easily if you make a mistake?

The reason why I was thinking of a higher grit stone was that it's less likely to ruin the apex quickly if I make a few wrong strokes, even if it is a lot slower.

I really have no idea what to do at this point. I need to figure out if I'm destroying the edge while deburring, or if the edge is just bad in the first place.


Thanks for the suggestions.

I'm getting more confused about the entire edge sharpness though. Some people say you can't tell how sharp an edge is before deburring, while others say that a sharp edge will cut well even if it's messy.

If I have an clean apex and - in theory - held my angle perfectly, wouldn't the blade still struggle cutting paper, tomatoes, etc.?

I am not arguing that getting razor sharp blades off a 200 stone isn't possible for a good sharpener. But if the ability to cut paper and tomatoes requires removing the burr, then wouldn't removing the burr gently to not mess up the edge lead to a sharper knife in the hands of a beginner as opposed to removing the burr improperly and ruining the edge?

That a low grit stone might better to remove a burr even for a beginner as Rangen suggested is of course also a valid point.

How can I figure out whether my edge is fine before deburring when it's only possible to really assess after deburring? That is what is giving me a headache.

I deburr on every stone. I do not separate the tasks of apexing and then deburring. Achieve the first then do the second is how I go.

There is no reason a low grit edge can't cut paper. It might feel and sound ragged but it will but it.

Generally speaking, yes a low grit stone can magnify mistakes and like many others, I often tell people to start on a high grit for that reason. But, that is mainly for visual feedback and will only give results if the edge doesn't need much work.

 

[Matt Jacobs]

How much pressure are you putting on the blade when sharpening? I know that is hard to answer but if you are maintaining the angle and raising a burr, it sounds to me like you might be using so much pressure you destroying the apex when you flip. You would still feel a burr but the apex is gone. I would almost try something crazy like edge leading only alternating light passes for a while and see what happens. Almost like some people sharpen bushcraft or edc knives. At least then you would know if you are crushing the edge. I dont recommend this for normal sharpening, just trying to diagnose whats happening here.

 

[azn_knives_4l]

Have experienced exactly the opposite. Edge trailing is fine if you have to remove a lot of steel. Not the case here, it's only about abrading a burr, not creating a new bevel. Apart from the new, fresh burr edge trailing will raise.

Saw your edit. Sure. You say a single stroke edge-trailing can raise a new burr and this is true. Corollary is that a single stroke edge-leading can flatten or round the apex. OP says edge-trailing is working for them to de-burr and sharpen where other methods do not. I think it's important to focus that.

Edit: And OP also says they use edge-leading in their de-burring. I think all of this is pretty okay.

 

[Transmaster]

I am no expert, but I am learning fast. I was very good with the old style Norton oil stones but when I moved to Japanese style whetstones it was a whole different world of frustration. The Shapton stones I learned about here were a revelation. One thing I learned a long time ago is, to me at least, a stainless steel knife, depending on the alloy, are a booger to get them right. This is why I prefer a carbon steel blade. The KaBar BK-62 uses 1095CV. The Kephart design is the easiest knife I have to sharpen. It came out of the box sharp but I dressed it up with my Shapton 8000 and in a old cowboy joke in Wyoming it is so sharp I can blow out the back seam on a cowgirls skin tight levi pants at 10 paces just holding the Kephart edge on.

 

[mengwong]

edge leading

edge-trailing

There we have it, folks: the famed deburr-demurr, different strokes for different folks

 

[azn_knives_4l]

There we have it, folks: the famed deburr-demurr.

Nuance is important There's a Reddit post right now where a guy can't feel a burr and everybody's questioning/suggesting everything *except* edge-trailing strokes

 

[Transmaster]

There is a lot of pride wrapped up being able to properly sharpen a knife. But professional chef's don't usually mess with it they send their knives to a professional sharpening service. It is really cheap to have this done. I have 2 of my KCF knives, both Gyutos that have double bevel edges but they are ground in a "handed" bias. It would be very difficult for me to maintain this edge geometry. But for less than $15 bucks I can send it to a Japanese sharpening service that can. This is why I really like the Zwilling and Wüsthof knives I have they are easy to sharpen.

 

[mengwong]

From threads elsewhere:

Sharpening on a Washita or soft Arkansas is a very different experience, but still special. I sharpen on these stones, and the whole thing makes me happy.

Happy? Really? Does it have to do with deburring?

Or a soft ark/washita. Something with a good reputation for eating burrs for breakfast.

Aha. Ladies and gentlemen, we have found the cheat code.

The fun about BBW is that their garnets do abrade a burr, without raising a new one.

Now you have reason to buy More Stuff.

 

[azn_knives_4l]

From threads elsewhere:

Happy? Really? Does it have to do with deburring?

Aha. Ladies and gentlemen, we have found the cheat code.


Now you have reason to buy More Stuff.

You're encyclopedic about the conversations here, lol. Very impressive

 

[Benuser]

The bad news is that BBW doesn't work well with Krupp's 4116. Nice looking edges, but crumbling at the first use.

 

[hibbs00]

The bad news is that BBW doesn't work well with Krupp's 4116. Nice looking edges, but crumbling at the first use.

I think it's worth pointing out, most people, at least those I've met, will agree with you on edge leading over edge trailing. I find edge leading to be superior as well

 

[aporigine]

Thanks everyone!

I will get a loupe and see if the pattern goes all the way to the edge. I've actually been wanting to get one for a while since I believe having both feedback from the fingertips and a close inspection of the edge would help me understand way better what is actually happening.

What amount of magnification do I need to do all the troubleshooting necessary? I've seen people say x10 is enough, while others say x20.

And what's the opinion here on loupes vs. USB microscopes?

A true 20x has optics max 7 mm across. Don’t settle for made-in-C**** garbage that advertises 20 or 30 power but is half an inch (or more!) clear aperture.

A loupe is more versatile than some USB thing.

 

[MowgFace]

I think it's worth pointing out, most people, at least those I've met, will agree with you on edge leading over edge trailing. I find edge leading to be superior as well

Are you talking about in this situation specifically? Or for all sharpening?

 

[hibbs00]

Are you talking about in this situation specifically? Or for all sharpening?

For finishing. After raising a burr on both sides, finishing the edge with leading passes. I can get a sharp edge with trailing passes but they don't seem to last. Most that I've met agree trailing passes can result in a foil burr or wire edge. Granted, it's different for everyone. Some get really sharp edges from trailing passes but I think edge leading works better for most people

 

[Desert Rat]

Hello everyone,

I've been practicing sharpening for a few months on and off, and am completely puzzled as to what I am doing wrong.

Therefore, I'm making this thread to get detailed help troubleshooting every step so I know if the issue is that my edge isn't apexed, or that I am not deburring properly.

I'm mainly focusing on sharping a Victorinox Swiss Modern chef knife because it is supported to be easy to sharpen. I've also tried other cheaper knives, but the results are always the same.

I can barely get it to cut printer paper, and not nearly as well as when it came from the factory. I used to think the issue was that I didn't apex the edge, then started thinking the issue was a burr. Now I am confused again, because not matter what I do, I get the same result, and not even consistently.

Here is exactly what I do on a Shapton Pro 1000 whetstone:

- Mark the edge with sharpie and grind it off along the entire edge until the burr is formed (I check both with Mily fingers and a flashlight)

- Repeat on the other side

- Test if the edge catches on a plastic pen or a fingernail

- If it catches, continue with the normal sharpening motion using less and less pressure

- Finally, use stripping motions on the stone, either edge-leading with no pressure, or trailing with very light pressure

And then the sometimes can cut paper, sometimes not. And how well it cuts is also very inconsistent. I've tried deburring more aggressively using a cork or soft wood at the end, but that didn't change much.

Please share with me any reliable methods to determine at what stage I am messing up. I need a checklist of the most effective methods to test the blade before progressing with the next step to be absolutely certain I've done everything correctly so far.

A few specific question I have:

- What are foolproof methods to see whether I have apexed? I'm very, very confident that I always get a consistent burr on each side, which in my understanding guarantees an apex. However, it would be nice to verify. I don't see any reflections under a strong light source.

- How sharp should the edge feel when doing the three finger test after raising a burr on both sides? When I do it it feels rather sticky/toothy than smooth, but it doesn't completely stop my finger pads, and it doesn't feel like I'll be cutting myself easily. Is that good enough at this point, or should it already feel very sharp before deburring?

- What exact tests can I do to determine whether the edge is in principle sharp enough to cut paper before deburring? Is the edge catching on fingernails or pens enough?

- If I've ended up turning the factory edge into something closer to 17 degrees despite using the sharpie trick, I should still be able to cut paper perfectly if I do everything right, correct? And if I added a 20 degree micro bevel bevel it should also work just fine, I presume? I'm trying to figure out if angles matter at all here if they're consistent.

Thanks a lot, and let me know if you need any more information or specific photos (I only have a Pixel 7 camera though).

A good light source will tell me if the edge has a burr or isn't fully apexed. With the light over my shoulder, looking closely with my naked eye I can't see any light reflected on the edge that edge will easily shave arm hair and cut paper. Sun light is best, but not mandatory, %100 percent effective for me and faster than fooling around with magnification. I guarantee you your edges are reflecting light. Perhaps your light source is placed wrong or you're just not looking close enough?

Beginners struggle to understand what is going on with the edge and while I might not be a practitioner of this gentlemen's methods, I won't argue with his results. What I like about the video is how he breaks down what is happening with wire edges (burrs), what they do and how to tell if they are there.

 

[azn_knives_4l]

A good light source will tell me if the edge has a burr or isn't fully apexed. With the light over my shoulder, looking closely with my naked eye I can't see any light reflected on the edge that edge will easily shave arm hair and cut paper. Sun light is best, but not mandatory, %100 percent effective for me and faster than fooling around with magnification. I guarantee you your edges are reflecting light. Perhaps your light source is placed wrong or you're just not looking close enough?

Beginners struggle to understand what is going on with the edge and while I might not be a practitioner of this gentlemen's methods, I won't argue with his results. What I like about the video is how he breaks down what is happening with wire edges (burrs), what they do and how to tell if they are there.

Fwiw, I, and many others, tend to sharpen waaaaaaaay before the apex starts to reflect light. It's tough to say exactly due to polish and wavelengths but ~0.4 microns to ~0.5 microns would be a rough minimum apex width to visibly reflect light and this will barely slice paper absent micro-serrations.

 

[stringer]

Fwiw, I, and many others, tend to sharpen waaaaaaaay before the apex starts to reflect light. It's tough to say exactly due to polish and wavelengths but ~0.4 microns to ~0.5 microns would be a rough minimum apex width to visibly reflect light and this will barely slice paper absent micro-serrations.

I think when people use a light source to check for burr remnants they are doing it pretty far along in the sharpening process. At least that is how I do it. FWIW. I don't know anything about wavelengths or microns. YMMV.

 

[M1k3]

I think when people use a light source to check for burr remnants they are doing it pretty far along in the sharpening process. At least that is how I do it. FWIW. I don't know anything about wavelengths or microns. YMMV.

I use it after deburring. Want to make sure I deburred properly.

 

[Desert Rat]

Fwiw, I, and many others, tend to sharpen waaaaaaaay before the apex starts to reflect light. It's tough to say exactly due to polish and wavelengths but ~0.4 microns to ~0.5 microns would be a rough minimum apex width to visibly reflect light and this will barely slice paper absent micro-serrations.

I've never deburred an edge that didn't reflect light and barley cut paper. The internet has plenty to teach me though.

 

[azn_knives_4l]

Ahhhhhh, right. Burrs are bigger than apexes. Forgot you said both

 

[azn_knives_4l]

I've never deburred an edge that didn't reflect light and barley cut paper. The internet has plenty to teach me though.

Take a quick look next time you feel the need to sharpen? Not necessarily very dull or whatever but just to the point you want to touch it up. Pretty easy check

 

[Benuser]

With naked eye I only can see severe damage.
To feel for burrs:
Nail from spine to edge — feeling for any unevenness.
Nail along the edge on both sides — should feel equally smooth
Stropping on your hand palm. Recognise the burr on the other side. In case you believed you were done.
Thumb from spine to edge — will take some exercise. In the long run one of the best.
Cutting the finest cigarette paper and listening.
Cutting into a medication sachet: if there's any burr left, it will fold and the next cut won't be straight.

 

[Cifer]

Hello everyone,

I've been practicing sharpening for a few months on and off, and am completely puzzled as to what I am doing wrong.

Therefore, I'm making this thread to get detailed help troubleshooting every step so I know if the issue is that my edge isn't apexed, or that I am not deburring properly.

I'm mainly focusing on sharping a Victorinox Swiss Modern chef knife because it is supported to be easy to sharpen. I've also tried other cheaper knives, but the results are always the same.

I can barely get it to cut printer paper, and not nearly as well as when it came from the factory. I used to think the issue was that I didn't apex the edge, then started thinking the issue was a burr. Now I am confused again, because not matter what I do, I get the same result, and not even consistently.

Here is exactly what I do on a Shapton Pro 1000 whetstone:

- Mark the edge with sharpie and grind it off along the entire edge until the burr is formed (I check both with Mily fingers and a flashlight)

- Repeat on the other side

- Test if the edge catches on a plastic pen or a fingernail

- If it catches, continue with the normal sharpening motion using less and less pressure

- Finally, use stripping motions on the stone, either edge-leading with no pressure, or trailing with very light pressure

And then the sometimes can cut paper, sometimes not. And how well it cuts is also very inconsistent. I've tried deburring more aggressively using a cork or soft wood at the end, but that didn't change much.

Please share with me any reliable methods to determine at what stage I am messing up. I need a checklist of the most effective methods to test the blade before progressing with the next step to be absolutely certain I've done everything correctly so far.

A few specific question I have:

- What are foolproof methods to see whether I have apexed? I'm very, very confident that I always get a consistent burr on each side, which in my understanding guarantees an apex. However, it would be nice to verify. I don't see any reflections under a strong light source.

- How sharp should the edge feel when doing the three finger test after raising a burr on both sides? When I do it it feels rather sticky/toothy than smooth, but it doesn't completely stop my finger pads, and it doesn't feel like I'll be cutting myself easily. Is that good enough at this point, or should it already feel very sharp before deburring?

- What exact tests can I do to determine whether the edge is in principle sharp enough to cut paper before deburring? Is the edge catching on fingernails or pens enough?

- If I've ended up turning the factory edge into something closer to 17 degrees despite using the sharpie trick, I should still be able to cut paper perfectly if I do everything right, correct? And if I added a 20 degree micro bevel bevel it should also work just fine, I presume? I'm trying to figure out if angles matter at all here if they're consistent.

Thanks a lot, and let me know if you need any more information or specific photos (I only have a Pixel 7 camera though).

Sorry for the long silence, everyone.

Here are a bunch of pretty bad videos of the knife edge recorded using a cheap USB microscope. I just uploaded all of them because I don't know what exactly to look out for.



Am I correct that there is no burr left? Can anyone see what the issue is from those videos?

How exactly do I tell if I apexed from microscope photos and videos?

It cuts tomatoes fine (sinks into the skin with almost no pressure) but I really can't get the knife to consistently and cleanly cut newspaper - and sometimes even paper. Whenever I try to touch up the parts that don't even cut printer paper correctly there sometimes seems to be zero improvement.

If you need more/different videos let me know what to do differently.

Thanks a lot!

 

[Benuser]

Far from me to interprete the images. I wouldn't be surprised though, if after all your sharpening attempts, the bevels have become facetted. This, in combination with the relative thickness behind the edge, could explain the difficulties you're experiencing.
Where you are looking for a smooth straight or convexed bevel, it could be it is now formed by a superposition of different minibevels, causing a lot of unnecessary friction.
My first suggestion would be to start any sharpening by building a relief bevel, at the lowest possible angle. A good occasion to get rid of any shoulder, i.e. where face and bevel meet. Go on until you've almost reached the very edge.
To check for the bevel being smooth there's a trick. Have the blade flat on the stone, move it slowly edge leading, while slightly raising the spine and feel where any friction occurs: give it one, very light stroke at that angle. Repeat this, until you've reached the sharpening angle. Make sure to restart every time at the initial position, with a flat knife.

 

[azn_knives_4l]

Not sure what to say about your video but here's my Vic, sharpened today, more or less exactly as @Benuser is describing. That shiny line is the 'apex' bevel at ~17dps with a convex 'relief' immediately behind. Apex is 400 grit Naniwa Pro and goes right through paper towel. Hope it helps!