I'm sorry, Marcel. I didn't know you had such a preference for bad workflow.let me be more specific for Lars, the difference between a Kees van der Westen and a Cafelat Robot plus Bellman steamer is nowhere near what you expect from a price tag difference of 15.9K.
New Kitchen - Cooktops From 2 different brands?
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Thx and absolutely right. Already bought the 36ā liebherr monoliths, Hestan range and hood and the Gaggenau combi microwave. Got Liebherr mini wine fridge free. They are set to arrive March 15 or so. House ready March 5 or so. Looking for panel ready dish wash washer now.
This is probably gonna be painstakingly long but I saw a lot of good and interesting points I wanted to add a few cents to (or simply agree with in more words).
I agree that 'workflow' should be the starting point of a design setup. Its often forgotten or neglected in design. And also too often 'cookie-cutter' standard recommendations like 'kitchen triangle' are followed, that aren't necessarily applicable to how everyone cooks. Personally for example I tend to do very little cooking in water, so I frankly don't care much how accessible my sink is in relation to my stove... I don't even care much about the fridge to be honest, since I tend to grab everything at once before cooking. I care far more about where I have my prime prep-space and cutting space compared to the stove. But ask 10 different people waht they use the most in a kitchen and you'll get 10 different answers... whats most important is that the setup conforms to how you cook to make that the most efficient as possible - with the least unnecessary movement.
Personally I hate 180 degree turns though at least for cutting / prepping. Hence why I really prefer a generous amount of cutting / prep space next to the stove. It's far easier to transfer stuff just a meter to the left without dropping anything than to do that during a 180 turn. Your mileage may vary if you're less clumsy but it's worthy of consideration.
I agree that I'd probably move the stove a bit to the left. The small part to the right of it right now looks a bit... like a dark forgotten corner that's too small to be useful, doesn't get good lightning, and its a bit... iduno.. weird. Like a 1 meter gap without a cupboard. I think it would look better if you at least filled up that gap with open-shelving, and-or just moved the stove a meter or so to the left, and then that whole space to the right of the stove becomes far more useful.
Also, lightning. Could be because of the rendering but that really looks like a 'dark' corner. My major complaint in my own kitchen is that in some places the lightnign isn't that good, or for example I try to rely on ceiling light but in some positions my own body ends up blocking it. Lightning can really make or break a kitchen, both aesthethically and functionally.
When it comes to that large open wall I can see both sides of it. Filling it all up with cupboards adds functionality but will make the whole place feel more cramped. A compromise solution is to add at least some open shelving for stuff that doesn't look like crap. Plates, glasses, pans, whatever. Open shelving adds storage without making the room feel smaller.
Unless your ventilation is really superduper awesome though it's preferable if anything on open shelving is stuff you use at least on a regular basis. Personally I really like having all my pans on open shelving because it's really convenient when cooking, but others may consider this a complete nightmare because it looks more cluttered.
As a compromise to a compromise you could also do it on part of the wall, like the part to the right of the stove.
McMan also makes another very good point about this: only having low-height storage means you're constantly bending over all the time. As a tall person I can sympathise with this; all my most regularly used items are all stored above the waist level. Anything below waist height is - to me - subpar unergonomical storage.
Yeah trash is important to consider. Unless you're someone who's a big fan of using garbage bowls while prepping, I think it's as important as anything else in the 'kitchen triangle'. When I'm prepping I go to my garbage more than to my sink. Since I'm poor and live in a rental kitchen for me the easiest solution is to just have a standalone trash can that I can move around, so I literlaly just slide it over next to my prep spot, but there's a million other ways to go about this (and most are far more elegant and prettier than mine). Bottom line is just to keep it in mind when planning. It bothers the hell out of me whenever I'm at my parents place that they don't have this set up efficiently.
Those kitchen all tend to share a similar '0 clutter' aesthethic. If that's what you want some things to consider:
-Figure out a solution for any appliances you have. Consider making dedicated 'appliance garage' cupboards that you can close off with a door or something.
-As mentioned by others such photos are often made in kitchens that see little actual usage, and / or after someone cleaned up all the clutter for an hour.
-A lot of this is about discipline to actually put everything away in cupboards all the time so it's not cluttering up the islands / counters. A large factor in this is to make sure you have enough storage space and it's convenient enough that you'll actually bother to put things away.
Thx for this - havenāt even thought about lighting!!! For the trash, the cabinet maker had dual trash within cabinet under the sink. I donāt like that. I just donāt like trash under in cabinets. Gonna get a few large Vipp trash cans. Also, for the sink, was leaning towards the kohler prolific but have since discovered the Frankie chef center and hoping to see that somewhere here in vegas before buying. Back to lighting - I really need to learn more about this and think things through. Great points for storage. Iām only 6ā and wifey around 5ā7ā so about average but we are older so bending over for storage no fun.
on the ventilation, itās a Hestan 48 vent with 1350 cfm. Interestingly, no make up air requirements in vegas but have already thought about that. FYI - check out YouTube channel by Yale Appliance. Great place to learn more about appliances and although they are out of Boston, helped me learn
let me be more specific for Lars, the difference between a Kees van der Westen and a Cafelat Robot plus Bellman steamer is nowhere near what you expect from a price tag difference of 15.9K.
Holy smoke , taking a diamond blade to a concrete slab should not be THAT expensive, unless your kitchen is located in a former nuclear shelter or similar ;-)
Yeah, here in vegas am learning that most folks rip you off big time. So to get decent bonded licensed contractor- aināt cheap.
my dream espresso maker was always a slayer single group. Have office in seattle and always coveted one. Have had rocket, londinium,
Elekta and expobar Athena. Must say, you gents have good taste
We have two of the dual in-cabinet trash can setups. I really disliked the idea of them. Until we started to used them. I really, really like them, and wish I had put one on my prep island.
We had them in cabinets in the San Jose house, never used over 6 years. Kept potatoes in one and onions in other.
thinking I should try but am in love with larger vipp trash cans
https://vipp.com/en/products/pedal-bin-30-l-8-gal
Agree, I was pretty dubious until I started using them. We have one at the main sink and one at the prep sink; the front bin is trash and the back bin we use for recycling.
A few thoughts:
Lighting is a big issue in kitchens. It looks like you only have can lights. I personally dislike that. Sconces and pendants distribute light broadly. Getting light to bounce off the ceiling and walks is important. I donāt know if your architects can give you a lighting distribution in the room, cad software can do that.
A dishwasher next to a sink is important. Also its great if all your dish and utensil storage is next to the dishwasher so you donāt need to move to put it away.
I have always had a window behind the main sink. Its nice to look at something while washing dishes. I agree with others here that having it on an island sounds not ideal.
Countertop appliances take up gobs of space. Think about them vs work areas. You need outlets in appropriate places. As others said nooks to store them are an option.
The 5x10 island sounds like a lot of work to clean. You canāt reach across it.
You can never have enough space for a pantry.
Keep storage space for spices, oil, vinegar, etc. near the stove. A pull out drawer for spices is great. Bottles donāt work in a deep cabinet.
Lighting is a big issue in kitchens. It looks like you only have can lights. I personally dislike that. Sconces and pendants distribute light broadly. Getting light to bounce off the ceiling and walks is important. I donāt know if your architects can give you a lighting distribution in the room, cad software can do that.
A dishwasher next to a sink is important. Also its great if all your dish and utensil storage is next to the dishwasher so you donāt need to move to put it away.
I have always had a window behind the main sink. Its nice to look at something while washing dishes. I agree with others here that having it on an island sounds not ideal.
Countertop appliances take up gobs of space. Think about them vs work areas. You need outlets in appropriate places. As others said nooks to store them are an option.
The 5x10 island sounds like a lot of work to clean. You canāt reach across it.
You can never have enough space for a pantry.
Keep storage space for spices, oil, vinegar, etc. near the stove. A pull out drawer for spices is great. Bottles donāt work in a deep cabinet.
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
If you're going with the seperate trash can it's worth considering if you can find a parking spot for it where it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb where you can park it when you're not prepping (fake cabinet for all I care), because that's the main downside of a seperate trash can. Main perk is that you can move it to wherever you're prepping.
It's not the only road to rome though; just make sure whatever road you pick, you put thought into it to make sure it's the right road for you.
Same goes for all the stuff like lightning and layout.
I don't have any sensible ideas or suggestions about specific brands (I'm European). When it comes to appliances I'm sorta similar to Marcel; in the end while certainly important they don't make or break a kitchen. For usability it's more important that everything is in the right spot (for you).
maybe, maybe not. it depends on the pressure and how it's plumbed. residential gas in most areas is very low pressure, so unfortunately you need a fat pipe and/or a short run. that looks like only 3/8" or 1/2" to me, so depending on how long the run is (or how close it is to a fatter mainfold), it might not be able to flow enough gas to support a higher output appliance.
you should talk to someone knowledgeable (like a plumber) to see how much output (BTU/hr) that stubout can support. important to know this when appliance shopping. or of course you can always run another line if it's not big enough.
i wish we used higher pressure natural gas. i also wish normal circuits were 240V. we're wasting a lot of pipe and copper to move power around.
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My take on it: Use cans where you want good working light. We have 6 over each island, and each set is on dimmers (all our bulbs are LED now). Along the 'long counter' we have another 6 or so cans, which are on the same circuits as the nearby lights over the islands. It is great lighting for actually working. and it is unobtrusive. The u-shaped area we have has 8 aim-able cans, and frankly I wish we had gone with 10. Undercabinet lights also help a lot when we are working at the counters along the walls, and they are good 'mood' lighting as well (they have low and high light settings). One sink is on an interior wall, so it has a strip light on the underside of the high cabinet above. The other is in the u-shaped area and has a window -- but I wish we had put a can or two above it (the grouping starts another foot back) for nighttime.
Pendents, sconces, etc. are great for background/ 'mood' lighting but is difficult to get good, even lighting for prepping, cooking and clean-up.
It also probably doesn't help that I am an engineer and not an architect. I went for function first, and then did a bit to elevate the aesthetics without hurting function.
All-in-all, the lighting is one of the best things about our build.
Thx for this. Please send pics if not too much trouble. Still learning about lighting.
In terms of lighting I always prefer direct / tunable lighting ... my kitchen has general 6" cans (dimmable) with separate sets of 4" direct lights on the work areas - cooktop and island / separate / dimmable with lights that are directional. large island lights / off-center - biased to the sitting side ... all the lighting has been modeled to check shadowing / backlighting ... luckily I have a friend who has software for that ... ultimately make sure your task lighting is in front of you by 20"+ ... centered. Have fun ... sounds like you are on the right road ...
FWIW - main sink is a 34" deep / farmhouse / single and my island is a 32" deep / workstation that I have had cutting boards waterjet to sit on ... TBD but hopefully what I want ...
Deep fryer - not my cup of tea for daily use ... but not my kitchen ... steam - love it / but not for daily use ... too much cleanup ... just my $0.02 ...
Just looking forward to you be happy with your beautifuly kitchen!!! Best of luck ... keep send updates/pics really looking forward to it.
BMB
FWIW - main sink is a 34" deep / farmhouse / single and my island is a 32" deep / workstation that I have had cutting boards waterjet to sit on ... TBD but hopefully what I want ...
Deep fryer - not my cup of tea for daily use ... but not my kitchen ... steam - love it / but not for daily use ... too much cleanup ... just my $0.02 ...
Just looking forward to you be happy with your beautifuly kitchen!!! Best of luck ... keep send updates/pics really looking forward to it.
BMB
DM sent
For a vent that big I would think you need an 8 inch pipe which will not fit in a wall. Are going to drill through the side wall and poke out a vent?
Builder said not a problem as did siematic cabinet makers. So havenāt worried about it. But great point. I will double check. Could be huge potential problem. Thank you
Rectangular duct? Or is there a code that exhaust ducting has to be iron pipe?
For that many cfms OP might want to investigate external fans to lower the noise level.
Unsure but can check. We only have so much leeway since builder does everything. Our options were more around adding bathrooms and getting nice flooring or cabinetry. Anything I want them to do if not on their list is ācustomā and they politely tell me that it canāt be done.
Dan-
Senior Member
Kitchen exhaust just has to be rigid duct (no flex). There's no requirement for iron. Rectangular duct that fits in 2x4 walls doesn't carry enough air for that hood. Depending on what's on the other side, and how the hood is ducted, it may be just fine, especially if it goes up through cabinetry instead of out the back into a wall, which might require a soffit. If the stove is on an exterior wall, then it's also no problem, but you may want a muffler?
For dishwashers we recently (in the past year) upgraded from a midrange Made in USA Bosch to the Miele with lights. It was worth it. BTW with Bosch you really need their top of the line stuff. It makes a difference. We had a Made in Germany Bosch dishwasher in my last house, and it was far superior to the local ones. Also cost more.
Something to consider: a 5x10 island usually means 2-3 sheets of stone, if you're going natural. Besides the cost, it can look funny where they join the stone.
For dishwashers we recently (in the past year) upgraded from a midrange Made in USA Bosch to the Miele with lights. It was worth it. BTW with Bosch you really need their top of the line stuff. It makes a difference. We had a Made in Germany Bosch dishwasher in my last house, and it was far superior to the local ones. Also cost more.
Something to consider: a 5x10 island usually means 2-3 sheets of stone, if you're going natural. Besides the cost, it can look funny where they join the stone.
Thx for advice on dishwashers - simply need to learn about them. For the vent, Weāre getting custom paneled but the insert is a Hestan unit - KVL48. Hereās a couple pics from November of kitchen and duct location and runs and layout fyi.
Also on the stone, most likely getting porcelain and unsure if I can do 1 slab vs 2.
Ah, good -- straight through the wall. If that is 6 inch diameter it probably needs to bump up to 8 or 9 inches. (it looks like the studs are 12" o.c., but I can't tell for sure).
I looked up the Hestan unit - KVL48 and it states it uses 10-inch duct diameter for 900 cfm. The pipe in the picture looks a little small. The weight is 40 pounds. It says it is USA made.
KVL48 by Hestan - Range Hood Insert - Goedekers
It is the same price as my Viking 36-inch vent a few years ago. Viking is more commercial kitchen looking which may not be the look you are going for. I think the Viking vent motor is around 40 pounds which is separate from the vent. The vent is very heavy. The Viking fan motor for the vent hood is 8 amps. I had to add an extra circuit to run the vent hood. Maybe Heston uses newer technology as their fan pulls 4.4 amps.
KVL48 by Hestan - Range Hood Insert - Goedekers
It is the same price as my Viking 36-inch vent a few years ago. Viking is more commercial kitchen looking which may not be the look you are going for. I think the Viking vent motor is around 40 pounds which is separate from the vent. The vent is very heavy. The Viking fan motor for the vent hood is 8 amps. I had to add an extra circuit to run the vent hood. Maybe Heston uses newer technology as their fan pulls 4.4 amps.
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Thank you for this!!!! The cabinet makers will tear down existing kitchen and start from scratch. Sadly, we have to wait for builder to complete the build and give me keys to house before Siematic can come in. Appliances already bought and they will provide plan on everything from ducting, backsplash, etc. Have to confirm flooring and lighting with them as well but worried that will add more cost we canāt afford. Also, Hestan sources the vents from VAH. Vent a Hood I believe. Love the Viking Tuscany series but have wanted Hestan for a few years now
Lol yeah. Truly great company. Also, think Turbochef near you too. Another awesome company.
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usually, at least in my parts, is going through the kitchen vendor twice as expensive as getting someone else to do stuff not directly linked to the actual kitchen. Not sure how that is in Vegas but ask around, our kitchen vendor warned us flat out.
Youāre totally right but have heard stories of folks getting burned trusting others out here. Since weāre new, finding out many biz owners say they are bonded and licensed but arenāt. Neighbor had a landscape company whose gardeners sued house owner for slip and fall.
With all the folks moving to vegas, lots of people looking to take advantage. Still, I have budget issues so gotta find a balance. And siematic is pretty pricey. Seems like Iām the bug in the saying āsometimes youāre the windshield and sometimes youāre the bugā
