No Love for VG-10?

[Jville]

I've done some rough things to ZDP 189 in the past, even smacking it against a concrete step (not on purpose! ). Keeping in mind it's a stainless with 3 times the carbon content of VG10 (with more chromium... and harder too) it still seems to have better toughness than the latter.


But that's my experience without doing any direct testing between the two, so maybe I'm wrong.

Kip how did you get that massive chip? For some reason I thought you said it was doing parm but maybe not.

Kurosaki Megumi, an excellent knife in VG10.

Agree. I've heard masakage has some good vg10 and I would take that bet. Might have to take the plunge.

 

[Barmoley]

Also, generally speaking what does “good” vg10 do better than other stainless? Like, why would someone pick vg10 over say swed stainless, ginsanko, etc?
I’ve read that it’s not chippy and the burr isn’t to difficult...okay okay...but what makes you love it so?

It doesn't do anything better, it is more that vg10 in a good knife shouldn't stop you from buying said knife. So Tanaka vg10 would be good, but no better than Tanaka ginsanko.

 

[Kippington]

Kip how did you get that massive chip? For some reason I thought you said it was doing parm but maybe not.

Concrete... and alcohol was involved too.

 

[HRC_64]

I get the feeling that maybe the makers like using it for some reason,
see for example Tanaka using it because its cheaper.

Personally I think I would buy the knife/maker etc and just ignore
the alloy somewhat. There are definitely knives/deals
that only exist made in VG10 because the dealer or maker
spec the knife that way.

The real question I have tho is why VG10 is cheaper than
Gin3 which doesn't make any sense to me. Maybe its the cryo
that sweedish stainless (seems to) need?

I'd be curious for more technical explanations why the makers
like it more than eg Ginsanko.

 

[Eloh]

(Perceived) marketing value
Availabiliy
Price
Workability due to Co (? )

 

[Nemo]

Any chance of a profile shot of that knife?

 

[inferno]

i wonder how ginsanko has gotten its good reputation when its almost identical to sandvik 19c27. a coarse grained steel.

https://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/e/yss/search/gin3.html
https://www.materials.sandvik/en/pr...ife-steel/sandvik-knife-steels/sandvik-19c27/

this is what sandvik thinks of it:

"Excellent wear resistance
Sandvik 19C27 is Sandvik's most wear resistant knife steel grade and developed for abrasive applications. Sandvik 19C27 is the odd grade in the Sandvik knife steel portfolio because it's a coarse carbide grade, unlike the other Sandvik knife steel grades."

"The coarse carbide grades excel at wear resistance but do not allow keen edge angles and have limited edge stability, due to the sacrifice of toughness related to the coarse microstructure.

Sandvik 19C27 is developed for industrial blades for cutting cardboard and tough fiber materials. The world class wear resistance is the main reason why this grade should be selected. Sandvik 19C27 is limited in corrosion resistance and we recommend surface coating on Sandvik 19C27 for knife applications to avoid corrosion issues.

With a recommended hardness range of 55-63 HRC, excellent wear resistance and a coarse carbide structure Sandvik 19C27 is suitable for industrial blades for cutting tough or/and abrasive materials."

by looking at the chemical specs i'd guess vg10 (if done right) is on par in toughness with 19c27 because it 1: has a grain refiner that 19c27 doesn't have and 2: it has a toughener Co. What speaks for the 19c27 is that its slightly lower in C and Cr. its probably cancels out.

and according to larrins actual tests 19c27 which is simple ingot, is pretty much on par with powder cpm154 in toughness if we could allow ourselves to extrapolate a little in the hrc department.

what a surprise...

 

[Kippington]

Any chance of a profile shot of that knife?

Hey, I'll PM you!

 

[Nemo]

Hey, I'll PM you!

Yeah, sorry... didn't mean to derail.

 

[Alexec]

I have reccomended Tanaka on the 1st page of the post.
Since that goes on i'd like to mention Yu Kurosaki's use of VG10 and Takamura's one.
Anything I mentioned, I have owned and used. But the only one I bought was the Tanaka.

Tho I have to mention that VG10 isn't a steel that I would buy again. Not because it sucks, just because there are other steels that gets the job better, easier without everything mentioned in this thread at the back of my head.
No love for VG10? Absolutely not.It was a fashion some years ago, not a passion though.

 

[foody518]

The 2 Tanaka damascus VG10's I've purchased I have felt the need to quickly sharpen out and slightly thicken the factory edge. Wouldn't hold worth much. I don't know how to diagnose whether it was overly thin, a wire edge, or something else, other than it crumbled pretty quickly on the cutting board.
Held up just fine after that.
And I can't say I particularly dislike sharpening VG10 except this one prematurely thickened monosteel VG10 Masanobu...

 

[inferno]

my own theory is that

1: many, probably the majority of knives with vg10 are not "optimally" HT:ed since they are usually the cheapest japanese knives or the no 2 cheapest (and up of course). so no one really cares.

2: they sometimes put on too thin edges to enhance cutting ability and its a steel that cant really hold that thin of an edge.

3: its mostly but not only mass production knives that use it. so grinding will be done with the most efficient way of removing metal, whatever that way happens to be. i kinda doubt its the big wheel with water and a guy doing it by hand. and most edges are probably overheated (and maybe even rehardened since its air hardening, and then of course untempered) from the factory.

with that being said. all knives i have bought have had more or less chippy edges from the factory. Now i simply remove the first 1-2mm and thin/flat new knives from the start. why not??

 

[Jville]

Concrete... and alcohol was involved too.

Haha, well then, that zdp handled that parm like a boss.

 

[Chef Doom]

Th

Where did you see a quartz watch priced at $1,000?
Konosuke makes a fine gyuto...$505 available at ai&om
Konosuke Custom VG10 Etched Damascus Wa-Gyuto 210mm Khii Rosewood Handle

Luxury watches and small production runs. Happens all the time.

 

[Paraffin]

Where did you see a quartz watch priced at $1,000?

Sorry for the knife OT, but not every market for high-end watches is a collector market for mechanical movements.

I have two TAG Heuer dive watches that are quartz, one priced a bit over $1,000 when I bought it, and the other way over that, but just bling with gold bits in the case and band, same basic design. I don't scuba dive, but used to do a lot of saltwater sailing and kayaking where I needed a robust waterproof watch that still looked good for above water dress. Yeah, I could have used a mechanical watch, but back when I bought these things (like, 20 years ago), the quartz movements where what you got for a dive watch. And they're still selling them.

It's a utilitarian market where you want something ultra-reliable, not a collector market. You have to send it away to pressure test the crown at certain intervals anyway, so it's no big deal to change the battery at the same time.

 

[labor of love]

Sorry for the knife OT, but not every market for high-end watches is a collector market for mechanical movements.

I have two TAG Heuer dive watches that are quarts, one priced a bit over $1,000 when I bought it, and the other way over that, but just bling with gold bits in the case and band, same basic design. I don't scuba dive, but used to do a lot of saltwater sailing and kayaking where I needed a robust waterproof watch that still looked good for above water dress. Yeah, I could have used a mechanical watch, but back when I bought these things (like, 20 years ago), the quartz movements where what you got for a dive watch. And they're still selling them.

It's a utilitarian market where you want something ultra-reliable, not a collector market. You have to send it away to pressure test the crown at certain intervals anyway, so it's no big deal to change the battery at the same time.

I just realized how I must sound to someone that isn’t crazy obsessed with jknives.

 

[Paraffin]

I just realized how I must sound to someone that isn’t crazy obsessed with jknives.

Hey, let me tell you about the modern copy of a 19th Century British flute I use to play tunes in local Irish sessions. And that's after 30+ years of playing and collecting guitars, and I thought THAT was a rabbit hole! Every hobby has its own rabbit hole where you can eventually drop any amount of disposable income.

Anyway, back to VG10.... full disclosure, my wife uses a Shun Premier santoku in VG-Max, which is some proprietary variant of VG10. It's not the worst steel in the world. I sharpen it at intervals and it's more work than my carbon knives, not quite as pleasant to sharpen and not as much edge retention as my one knife in HAP40, but it's okay. Hasn't chipped yet, but we use soft hinoki boards for veg, and relatively soft Hi-Soft boards for protein.

As other said above, the main downside I can see with the steel is that it's just not that attractive if you're looking for stainless or semi-stainless and have something like Ginsanko, R2, HAP40 etc. available.

 

[MrHiggins]

I like my Hattori VG10 just fine.

 

[Mjdavid]

Luxury watches and small production runs. Happens all the time.

Sorry for the knife OT, but not every market for high-end watches is a collector market for mechanical movements.

I have two TAG Heuer dive watches that are quarts, one priced a bit over $1,000 when I bought it, and the other way over that, but just bling with gold bits in the case and band, same basic design. I don't scuba dive, but used to do a lot of saltwater sailing and kayaking where I needed a robust waterproof watch that still looked good for above water dress. Yeah, I could have used a mechanical watch, but back when I bought these things (like, 20 years ago), the quartz movements where what you got for a dive watch. And they're still selling them.

It's a utilitarian market where you want something ultra-reliable, not a collector market. You have to send it away to pressure test the crown at certain intervals anyway, so it's no big deal to change the battery at the same time.

I think Chef Doom may have misunderstood the premise of my original question so I’ll ask it another way: Considering the amount of skill and labor that goes into a high end (over $500) Japanese Knife, why would they (blacksmiths) “waste it” on VG-10? Who’s going to buy it? I’m not talking about retailers like Williams Sonoma who get their share of consumers willing to splurge on a “fancy knife”. I’m talking about professional cooks and savvy knife enthusiasts (like us) who’ve cultivated an appreciation for the craft and it’s supplemental relationship to sharpening. Hence my title to this thread.

I actually don’t know how this thread got so much attention.

 

[labor of love]

Hey, let me tell you about the modern copy of a 19th Century British flute I use to play tunes in local Irish sessions. And that's after 30+ years of playing and collecting guitars, and I thought THAT was a rabbit hole! Every hobby has its own rabbit hole where you can eventually drop any amount of disposable income.

Anyway, back to VG10.... full disclosure, my wife uses a Shun Premier santoku in VG-Max, which is some proprietary variant of VG10. It's not the worst steel in the world. I sharpen it at intervals and it's more work than my carbon knives, not quite as pleasant to sharpen and not as much edge retention as my one knife in HAP40, but it's okay. Hasn't chipped yet, but we use soft hinoki boards for veg, and relatively soft Hi-Soft boards for protein.

As other said above, the main downside I can see with the steel is that it's just not that attractive if you're looking for stainless or semi-stainless and have something like Ginsanko, R2, HAP40 etc. available.

Well, my contention has always been that vg10 is a tougher more wear resistant steel compared to other stuff the forum favors.
If vg10 can hold a steep edge, sharpen quick, or get really sharp...then please let me know.
Until then I consider it to be a good “beater” steel at best.

 

[Bert2368]

Got one VG10 knife-.

“Fujitora DP Cobalt Alloy 3 Layers Petty Knife(Utility) 120mm”

For $38 US, I am happy, would buy this again.

It may not be "cutting edge" metalurgy- Still, performance, edge retention and sharpening characteristics are far better than most of the knives I grew up with.

If I collected knives as an end unto itself, followed the bleeding edge of metalurgy, bought only one offs or small run boutique knives by renowned master blade smiths?

I wouldn't be happy. But I'm just cooking, this iteration of VG10 works fine for me, plus I won't cry (much) if someone drops it on a ceramic tile floor point first (like a cheddar headed line cook I worked next to did to my new Henckels chef knife 30 odd years back).

I have a weird personal prejudice, my knives need to perform their designed function well, yet should cost less than my guns?! So I can be happy with adequately made lower end mass production knives.

Subjectively, "The difference between bad and worse is far more noticable than that between good and better"



30

 

[Chef Doom]

I think Chef Doom may have misunderstood the premise of my original question so I’ll ask it another way: Considering the amount of skill and labor that goes into a high end (over $500) Japanese Knife, why would they (blacksmiths) “waste it” on VG-10? Who’s going to buy it? I’m not talking about retailers like Williams Sonoma who get their share of consumers willing to splurge on a “fancy knife”. I’m talking about professional cooks and savvy knife enthusiasts (like us) who’ve cultivated an appreciation for the craft and it’s supplemental relationship to sharpening. Hence my title to this thread.

I actually don’t know how this thread got so much attention.

No, I did not misunderstand and I don't appreciate your insulting comment. The very argument you are making is the exact same argument that is made between quartz and mechanical watches.

The argument is not made as much between fountain and rollerball pens because it is understood that higher end rollerballs are more consistent and use better materials so a $500 version is not questioned.

I have mentioned before that the talking points and discussions on watch forums highly mirror knife forums.

 

[Larrin]

i wonder how ginsanko has gotten its good reputation when its almost identical to sandvik 19c27. a coarse grained steel.

https://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/e/yss/search/gin3.html
https://www.materials.sandvik/en/pr...ife-steel/sandvik-knife-steels/sandvik-19c27/

this is what sandvik thinks of it:

by looking at the chemical specs i'd guess vg10 (if done right) is on par in toughness with 19c27 because it 1: has a grain refiner that 19c27 doesn't have and 2: it has a toughener Co. What speaks for the 19c27 is that its slightly lower in C and Cr. its probably cancels out.

and according to larrins actual tests 19c27 which is simple ingot, is pretty much on par with powder cpm154 in toughness if we could allow ourselves to extrapolate a little in the hrc department.

what a surprise...

Cobalt as a toughening element is a common myth. The higher Cr of VG-10 probably means it is somewhat less tough than 19C27 but of course it is difficult to predict exactly where it would end up. Sandvik is down on 19C27 being a “coarse grained” steel only in relation to every other stainless they have: 13C26, 12C27, etc. 19C27 actually has a finer carbide structure than many other non-PM steels, especially stainless. Both VG-10 and 19C27 are perfectly fine choices as knife steels.

 

[agp]

I love my Kurosaki Fujin VG10. Given I'm not a professional or even a semi professional cook, the edge retention is good enough for me.

 

[alvaro_garcia]

A $500 VG10 GYUTO IS LIKE A $1000 QUARTZ WATCH, A COMPLETE WASTE OF MONEY.

Well, I don't think so, all my Breitling Aerospace (Superquartz Thermocompensated) watches (including one Emergency) are exceptional (which, by the way, each cost several thousands).

Now, with regards to VG10 I cannot comment because I ignore how good or bad it may be.

 

[parbaked]

Well, I don't think so, all my Breitling Aerospace (Superquartz Thermocompensated) watches (including one Emergency) are exceptional (which, by the way, each cost several thousands).

Interesting you mentioned Breitling because the Colt Skyracer is probably the only quartz watch I'd buy today.
Having said that I've been wearing a 1982 TAG Professional 200m quartz for the last year because I am too cheap to service my vintage Omegas.
I bought it when I graduated high school, didn't wear it for 25 years, and now it's the only watch I have that's still running...

 

[alvaro_garcia]

Interesting you mentioned Breitling because the Colt Skyracer is probably the only quartz watch I'd buy today.
Having said that I've been wearing a 1982 TAG Professional 200m quartz for the last year because I am too cheap to service my vintage Omegas.
I bought it when I graduated high school, didn't wear it for 25 years, and now it's the only watch I have that's still running...

I love (and own many) mechanical watches, however the quartz ones are much more practical: they never stop until the battery dies, they're always on time even not wearing them for weeks or months, they're much more accurate, they almost don't need servicing (almost no movement parts in their mechanisms)... Although I recon that there's something "alive" and more valuable in all mechanical watches (they're like small pieces of art).

 

[Ryndunk]

Split the difference. Get a grand seiko spring drive!

 

[labor of love]

Im guessing I can start a “which watch should I get” thread here in the off topic room sometime soon and I could get advice. I had no idea there were so many guys here that are really passionate about watch stuff. Neat.

 

[panda]

Im guessing I can start a “which watch should I get” thread here in the off topic room sometime soon and I could get advice. I had no idea there were so many guys here that are really passionate about watch stuff. Neat.

have you not seen the massive what's on your wrist thread??