Oh #$@% - Macro chip on a rather pricey knife

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Hah so I've sobered up from last night's drinks and I have a few rambling thoughts to get out there.
But first I should apologize for a video that is 10 times longer then it needed to be. This was the first time I've done this kind of test and I got a little carried away! :laugh:

So considering stickage wasn't something I was thinking about when I re-profiled the knife, I think I did okay. It seems to go through a whole potato fine but starts sticking during the smaller slices.
One thing I regret not doing is testing it against the un-modified grind of the 240mm Sukenari which was sitting right next to me.

The tests brought up a few questions in my head too that maybe some of you can answer.

How thin can a knife be before it starts to become impossible to stop stickage (or whats the thinnest knife you have that you use on sticky foods)? The height of the knife would also come into play here. Also what foodstuff you decide to test-cut on, which brings me to another question...

What is your opinion on what an acceptable amount of stickage is? I mean there are foods that will always stick, no matter what. So what is the point at which you stop worrying about it? Potatoes seem to be the benchmark, but slicing potatoes in a way I've never needed as part of a dish before felt kinda strange... and yet at the same time I test cut paper for sharpness and smoothness on kitchen knives, and that's something I'll never need in a dish! :nah:

I'm going to leave this 270mm Sukenari as it is, but even so I'd like to learn a bit more for future reference.
I'd love to hear what you guys have to say about this!
 
Oh and also, how much of this is in the cutting motion and technique? I noticed while cutting the tomato for example, changing my speed and motion (among other things) would yield different results in stickage.
Should I change my style rather then change the knife? :what:
 
I dont know anything about 'stickage' when referring to knife performance.

But I wanted to critique your latest video.

It was great because of the amount of cutting you did, the music, and the sound of the knife hitting the board. My only recommendation is that you keep with the theme of your previous videos, knife abuse, and cut these vegetables on an anvil so we can hear the beautiful d i n g !
 
Ah that time of wrecking the edge is behind me now nella. I'm verry happy with the knife as it is so I don't want to have to do any more work on it. Not to mention I already did those tests to see how the steel would hold up to abuse, it should behave no differently now that I've taken the chip out.

Stickage, by the way, is the tendency for the food you cut to stick to the side of the blade, which is a bad thing. The whole last video was testing for that and the results were so-so. It doesn't bother me much but I would like to learn more if possible for next time. Unfortunately I'm getting a lot of thread views but not getting much help yet. Maybe it's more of a opinionated topic, or one which not enough people have experience to talk about it.

Either way I'll keep trying to learn one way or another. :)
 
That is a great job you did, it looks just as good as it came from the factory. It would have been a deeply traumatic experience for me to damage a brand new knife, and such an expensive one at that, on my first day of ownership and then have to remove so much metal. :(

Good decision not to thin the tip and heels with the belt sander, I also have a cheap non-adjustable one and I have watched the tips of two knives turn red-hot, then dissolve in a shower of sparks in a fraction of a second so far ... thankfully it was just a $3 WalMart practice knife and a sh!tty $16 no-name gyuto ...
 
mhpr262 said:
Good decision not to thin the tip and heels with the belt sander, I also have a cheap non-adjustable one and I have watched the tips of two knives turn red-hot, then dissolve in a shower of sparks in a fraction of a second so far ... thankfully it was just a $3 WalMart practice knife and a sh!tty $16 no-name gyuto ...
Click to expand...

Yea those cheap knives are a godsend to practice on! You can learn so much by messing around on an otherwise useless knife.
 
Looks like " Oh #$@% - Macro chip on a rather pricey knife" repair was successful! Great job. As far as "stickage", etc. goes, in my opinion, just about all of the aforementioned can be influenced by technique, angel, speed. In the end I think whatever works best for you is the thing to go with. :cool2:
 
I remember reading through parts of this thread when it first came out. I just rediscovered it with renewed appreciation, and enjoyed seeing the extent of testing (particularly hacking at the chicken bone!). Danny's "worst choil" shot ever comment also gave me a smile.
Kippington, I was wondering if you have any updates after over a year of use. How is the blade holding up? I was also wondering if you primarily use it on a bamboo or poly board, or something more forgiving.
 
BTW, liked the request for unsafe things to try on a damaged-anyway blade ... permanent thread for that kind of "test market" might be an idea?

...

There are indeed a few things I like to chop frozen (that is what cheap Thai cleavers are great for, would never think of using a PM knife to do that!), frozen grated coconut (so much better than the dry sawdust, but usually you need to portion it and chop it down finer) is one of them... and certain aromatics that are hard to get at times - galangal, fresh turmeric come to mind. Can semi-thaw them to chop though, but portioning can be nasty, you rue the day when you just tiredly dumped the remainder of the asian grocery bag in the freezer after taking out anything that needs room temperature or fridge storage...

I might be in the market for some really mean D2 yo-deba one day ;)
 
The knife from this thread hasn't changed much over the last year... What has changed was the realization that modifying an expensive knife shouldn't be a major push out of your comfort zone. Instead it should be an understanding of what you like about an existing blade, and the willingness to change what you don't like - No matter how much money you spent on it! :laugh:

I'll try to update this as soon as I have the time (sometime in the next couple of days), and the major effect it's had on how I take care of my other knives.
 
Has the understanding of stickage evolved?
 
I find that thin slices of a non-rigid foodstuff that isn't dry will pretty much always stick. Seeing that this is all I seem to cut, I don't pay much attention to stickage (or lack thereof). Most stiff foods I work with I cut thin enough that it's flexible anyway.
Every so often I have to cut bigger chunks something and it's nice to find it not sticking, but for what I do it's a rare bonus.

I personally rate a thin knife higher, but really it depends on the job at hand.
 
I was about to order this knife until I found this post on Google. Guess Damascus is just for the look, not protecting the blade much. And there's still uncertainty for such a high hrc and 3% carbon. Maybe some of those 20% high chromium binded with 3% high carbon, making the carbon distribution uneven along somewhere.

Maybe that's why Japanese chefs still trust and use their carbon steel knives or very low chromium 0.2 to 05 blue paper steel knives. Stainless were developed for Westerners.

Money saved. Thx.
 
aichmophobia said:
I was about to order this knife until I found this post on Google. Guess Damascus is just for the look, not protecting the blade much. And there's still uncertainty for such a high hrc and 3% carbon. Maybe some of those 20% high chromium binded with 3% high carbon, making the carbon distribution uneven along somewhere.

Maybe that's why Japanese chefs still trust and use their carbon steel knives or very low chromium 0.2 to 05 blue paper steel knives. Stainless were developed for Westerners.

Money saved. Thx.
Click to expand...

It's interesting that's what you took away from this thread... He posted videos doing stress tests that 99% of us wouldn't do with our knives - especially higher end, $$$, Japanese knives - and you felt it showed the blades aren't tough?
 
Also, 本燒the original one piece steel is considered more rigid and better, than the sandwiched steels, during heat treatment.
 
JDA_NC said:
It's interesting that's what you took away from this thread... He posted videos doing stress tests that 99% of us wouldn't do with our knives - especially higher end, $$$, Japanese knives - and you felt it showed the blades aren't tough?
Click to expand...

Well, he did those harsh tests because his blade was already chipped, nothing to lose.

If all those tests didn't chip the blade, but one cut on cheese did at the beginning, I would consider that not perfect knife yet.
 
It's like M16, during tests in US soil, all tests past, but in Vietnam, one grit of sand clogged it. Does it make it a good tough gun? I would say it's pretty dangerous.
 
"original one piece steel is considered more rigid and better"

Would not attempt to cut something that could bind and break a blade (like hard cheese) with a thinly ground japanese style (hard or even honyaki) blade either :)
 
aichmophobia said:
Well, he did those harsh tests because his blade was already chipped, nothing to lose.

If all those tests didn't chip the blade, but one cut on cheese did at the beginning, I would consider that not perfect knife yet.
Click to expand...

If you read the thread, early on in the OP indicated that the knife was dropped on a paved parking lot which damaged it before it chipped
 
tjangula said:
If you read the thread, early on in the OP indicated that the knife was dropped on a paved parking lot which damaged it before it chipped
Click to expand...



I was partially correct, it's been months since this thread first came out so my memory was a little fuzzy:
Kippington said:
The initial damage to it actually goes a few months back - I received the knife on my birthday and consequently cracked in the blade on the first day due to playing with my new toy while drunk (I'm sure I am not the only person that does that sort of thing on this forum haha!)
The initial damage to the knife was the part of the chip that goes straight up, the curved part of the chip-out is where the lateral force pulled a good chunk out a few months later.
Click to expand...

Kippington said:
And yeah, I'm pretty certain parmesan cheese would've done no damage to the blade if it was in perfect condition. A previous accidental encounter with concrete is what turned the odds vastly against it holding up to the hard cheese. :O
Funnily enough, my other ZDP gyuto (same knife but in 240mm) fell out of its "friction fit" saya as I was running across the road and hit the tarmac hard. Luckily and surprisingly, no damage to that one at all.
I might be wrong, but going off my experience using and sharpening these two knives I think one of them is at the higher end of the bladesmith's target hardness and the other is at the lower end (they're advertised at 66 to 67HRC). Testing will be done on the harder one of the two, assuming I'm correct.
Click to expand...
 
It was completely my fault that it happened. I dropped it edge down on the corner of a concrete step sending a 2mm crack straight up. It was not my proudest moment :O. The rest came out in the cheese later.
As many people have pointed out, I took the opportunity before fixing the edge to show how much tougher these knives are then some people believe. I mean think about it, it was already chipped and cracked, and yet it went though more hard stuff without any further damage.
By the way, the cladding wont save the edge where - low and behold - there is no cladding!

Here's the current family photo:

R1hg1Li.jpg


The 270mm (top) hasn't changed much in the last year. Probably the biggest change has been to the appearance of the cladding, which has developed a patina in the pattern weld. Now with the pattern standing out, it's looking more like it did when I bought it. This came about slowly through normal use in the kitchen.

ryHQs6q.jpg


It's still reflective, but as I use it quite often at work (which involves people washing it with green scrubbies among other things) the surface has shown some signs of wear. This doesnt bother me at all, as you can probably guess by the appearance of the 240mm!

Many months ago I decided to forgo the appearance of the 240mm and chase performance instead. Using what I had learned in this thread with the 270mm, I went to work with the belt grinder on the 240mm - my everyday user. No more pretty reflective surfaces, I wasn't going to spend hours polishing a knife that was getting scratched up on a coarse belt every few weeks. All I wanted was light weight (its 155 grams), tiny secondary bevels and narrow tapers.

fdOYSGF.jpg


At around this time, Sukenari came out with the "Hairline" version of the ZDP-189 gyuto which, for those of you that don't know, is the budget version of the ZDP gyuto where they go without the pretty patterns and reflective mirror polish to reduce the pri... hey wait a minute! :eyebrow:
It's a lot of fun messing with high quality steel like this and dialing in a work tool to my own personal preferences, all while expanding my knowledge.

The hunger to know more really kicked in after a while so a few months ago I bought some blacksmithing tools and started forging, heat treating and grinding my own knives. I've spent the last few days experimenting with different clay coatings to create nicer looking hamon, but I guess that's a story for another thread. All up, its been a huge amount of fun!

FZwGEo8.jpg
 
I know I'm reviving a very old discussion, but this thread was quite the journey. A+ work all around.
 
Kippington said:
It was completely my fault that it happened. I dropped it edge down on the corner of a concrete step sending a 2mm crack straight up. It was not my proudest moment :O. The rest came out in the cheese later.
As many people have pointed out, I took the opportunity before fixing the edge to show how much tougher these knives are then some people believe. I mean think about it, it was already chipped and cracked, and yet it went though more hard stuff without any further damage.
By the way, the cladding wont save the edge where - low and behold - there is no cladding!

Here's the current family photo:

R1hg1Li.jpg


The 270mm (top) hasn't changed much in the last year. Probably the biggest change has been to the appearance of the cladding, which has developed a patina in the pattern weld. Now with the pattern standing out, it's looking more like it did when I bought it. This came about slowly through normal use in the kitchen.

ryHQs6q.jpg


It's still reflective, but as I use it quite often at work (which involves people washing it with green scrubbies among other things) the surface has shown some signs of wear. This doesnt bother me at all, as you can probably guess by the appearance of the 240mm!

Many months ago I decided to forgo the appearance of the 240mm and chase performance instead. Using what I had learned in this thread with the 270mm, I went to work with the belt grinder on the 240mm - my everyday user. No more pretty reflective surfaces, I wasn't going to spend hours polishing a knife that was getting scratched up on a coarse belt every few weeks. All I wanted was light weight (its 155 grams), tiny secondary bevels and narrow tapers.

fdOYSGF.jpg


At around this time, Sukenari came out with the "Hairline" version of the ZDP-189 gyuto which, for those of you that don't know, is the budget version of the ZDP gyuto where they go without the pretty patterns and reflective mirror polish to reduce the pri... hey wait a minute! :eyebrow:
It's a lot of fun messing with high quality steel like this and dialing in a work tool to my own personal preferences, all while expanding my knowledge.

The hunger to know more really kicked in after a while so a few months ago I bought some blacksmithing tools and started forging, heat treating and grinding my own knives. I've spent the last few days experimenting with different clay coatings to create nicer looking hamon, but I guess that's a story for another thread. All up, its been a huge amount of fun!

FZwGEo8.jpg
Click to expand...

So this is where it all started
 
Kippington said:
I think some of you guys might find this interesting.
So at work yesterday I was cutting a big wedge of Parmesan cheese in half when I hear a *tink* sound, aaaannnnddddd...

oZ4D2T0.jpg

(mildly interesting note: you can see micro and macro chipping in this image)

Ohhhh man
The initial damage to it actually goes a few months back - I received the knife on my birthday and consequently cracked in the blade on the first day due to playing with my new toy while drunk (I'm sure I am not the only person that does that sort of thing on this forum haha!)
The initial damage to the knife was the part of the chip that goes straight up, the curved part of the chip-out is where the lateral force pulled a good chunk out a few months later.

HWsgkTv.jpg


The knife is a Sukenari ZDP-189 Wa Gyuto 270mm at 66-67 HRC. The high hardness of this steel is gonna piss me off now that I gotta take a rather large bit of metal off the knife to remove the chip. I'll try to document my repair progress and post it here if anyone is interested.
Also, before I start repairs, I would happily oblige if anyone has a request for me to test the knife against something they think could potentially damage the edge. I have two of these ZDP-189 knives and they perform very well, so I'd be more then happy to run tests on the edge for you guys so that this thread doesn't give the wrong impression that the steel is too chippy or brittle.

Let me know!
Click to expand...

Damn I’m sorry to hear that, I haven’t read through all this yet but I hope it was too hard for ya to fix it
 
TEWNCfarms said:
I hope it was too hard for ya to fix it
Click to expand...

W-was that an insult? :rofl2:

Nah this thread was from three years ago. The knife was fixed back then and is still good today.
I'll take this opportunity to point out that I bought these ZDP knives to use in a professional kitchen, and the amount of sharpening I've done to them is beginning to show.
The 240mm is essentially a petty knife now:

pLTICWJ.jpg


Yeah, no doubt these two are what dropped me head first into the knife-making rabbit hole! :)
 
Yea, slowly losing it's belly curve was a great thing for a while, then one day it went past the sweet spot for me and I was like: You're a petty knife now, deal with it.
It taught me heaps about profiling.
 
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