Pour over coffee grinders?

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coxhaus said:
I would think before you go crazy on grinders you would need to condition your water otherwise you are wasting your money. More than likely you need to take out minerals and maybe adjust the PH of the water. If you are one of the lucky few to where you need to add minerals so be it.
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you really neeed to do both...especially for espresso. for pour over it's probably easier to find bottled water acc to the SCA recommendations than for espresso.

thumbs up for SSP burrs....(in the Mazzer Major)
 
I have had a fellow ode since the preorder and its been amazing on the counter. But I love the Lagom P64 for espresso.
 
coxhaus said:
I would think before you go crazy on grinders you would need to condition your water otherwise you are wasting your money. More than likely you need to take out minerals and maybe adjust the PH of the water. If you are one of the lucky few to where you need to add minerals so be it.
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MarcelNL said:
you really neeed to do both...especially for espresso. for pour over it's probably easier to find bottled water acc to the SCA recommendations than for espresso.
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I respectfully disagree! "Need" is in the eye of the beholder.

I wouldn't belittle anyone who pursued that degree of control. On the other hand, for many people it is more than they are willing to do, just to enjoy a cup of tea/coffee. Unless your municipal water is genuinely unpalatable, many people will be happy treating it as a background constant. All households I know drink water from the tap... make tea with it... boil rice and pasta in it... brush their teeth in it... and you guessed it... make coffee with it! Similarly, I am yet to see a cafe that isnt 'plumbed in'. While I am sure they have filters on the mains, I haven't been to a cafe that fiddles with the minerals or uses bottled water.

Again; this observation is not meant to invalidate anybody's experience... but I believe curating the water is something you do if your water is terrible or you are deep, deep into the hobby. In other words, I believe, making decent equipment decisions is a more primary concern for most people most of the time!!


[Edit: I am willing to accept that the places I have lived, have unusually 'good' water for capital cities. But that would surprise me!!]
 
You may of course disagree, nobody HAS to follow that advice. It's just that descaling an espresso machine is much harder on it's life span than the hassle of preparing suitable water as it eats away metal. I'm using a 70 year old espresso machine, finding a new boiler is near impossible, the cost of replacing a boiler is approx 25-35% of list price for new machines. Adding a bit of Potassium (or Sodium) Bicarb to buffer against acidity eating the metal away also pays off on the long run, and it prevents lead being bleached out of the brass in older machines.
For newer machines, if you already need to prevent lime scale why not adjust the water to make the maximum out of the taste?

The tap water being capable of making good espresso is not the only thing to consider for espresso.

The cafe's you're in usually have quite elaborate water treatment plants hidden under the counter, so no you do not see them fiddle with bottles since they most of all benefit from continuous supply of suitable water or 'plumbing in' (for a cafe the interruption of sales due to sending a machine for repair , getting a mechanic in @$100/hr more costly than water treatment) ;-)

For pour over things are not that critical, neither is the influence of the water on the prepared beverage as that is watery anyhow ;-)
 
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I've done more experimentation with water properties for beer brewing than for coffee. IME demineralized water like distilled or reverse osmosis is not optimal for flavor although I suppose it might be optimal for minimizing espresso machine plumbing maintenance. I've lived with both private well water and urban water supply systems. pH values have ranged from about 6.7 to 9.5 (many US municipalities raise the pH of their drinking to reduce the risk of lead contamination from old pipes). I have certainly visited places in the US that had fairly foul tasting (and sometimes smelling) tap water but these tend to be the exception rather than general rule. Health related contaminants are sort of a separate issue, be it arsenic, lead, radionuclides, nitrates, PFAS, coliform bacteria, or any of the myriad of less widely distributed contaminants from mining, industrial activity, or agriculture. Broadly speaking I'm with @Luftmensch on this topic at least for pour over coffee. Tap water or tap water treated with relatively simple filtration systems is generally adequate unless you live in one of the areas with truly terrible water.. If you are really determined to go all the way down the rabbit hole A) get your water tested as a first step so you know where you're starting from and B) read The SCA Water Quality Handbook and Water for Coffee.
 
MarcelNL said:
The cafe's you're in usually have quite elaborate water treatment plants hidden under the counter, so no you do not see them fiddle with bottles since they most of all benefit from continuous supply of suitable water or 'plumbing in' (for a cafe the interruption of sales due to sending a machine for repair , getting a mechanic in @$100/hr more costly than water treatment) ;-)
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Absolutely!

In Sydney, I believe the primary reason is asset protection. Exactly like you say... you want the "up time" of the machine to be as high as possible. Replacing the water filter (~$100) every 6-12 months is cheap insurance to keep trouble away. Taste may be an auxiliary benefit. We probably have 10 cafes that exist to punch out a morning and lunchtime workload for every boutique cafe that has put serious thought into their taste profile. It is clear who is thinking about what (not meaning to cast judgement either way - both are useful business models).

I might consider filtering if my coffee machine was >$10K. Since Sydney has soft water, descaling is not a massive concern. Though I will admit... I am a little uneasy about my boiler having brass end caps 😟


MarcelNL said:
For pour over things are not that critical, neither is the influence of the water on the prepared beverage as that is watery anyhow ;-)
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Pour over being the theme of this thread! 😃

I remain interested in the recommendations. We purchased a v60 kit at the beginning of the year but are using it less than expected. But that is my fault. I really dislike using our grinder for both espresso and pour-over. Changing it back and forth is really irritating once the espresso is dialed in.

I am close to commiting to the Fellow Ode but am having a difficult time justifying the cost (in addition to our other grinder). The next step for me mostly depends on how dissatisfied my partner is about my lack of action on this purchase 😋
 
Testing the actual water used is the start, luckily your water supply company does that for you...usually their website shows the avg water composition allowing you to sit back and sip a coffee or that you should start thinking about doing something.

From what I read the Ode gets a lot of good feedback, to be honest at roughly 300e it probably is probably a great buy for getting 64mm flat burrs.
 
Luftmensch said:
Absolutely!

In Sydney, I believe the primary reason is asset protection. Exactly like you say... you want the "up time" of the machine to be as high as possible. Replacing the water filter (~$100) every 6-12 months is cheap insurance to keep trouble away. Taste may be an auxiliary benefit. We probably have 10 cafes that exist to punch out a morning and lunchtime workload for every boutique cafe that has put serious thought into their taste profile. It is clear who is thinking about what (not meaning to cast judgement either way - both are useful business models).

I might consider filtering if my coffee machine was >$10K. Since Sydney has soft water, descaling is not a massive concern. Though I will admit... I am a little uneasy about my boiler having brass end caps 😟




Pour over being the theme of this thread! 😃

I remain interested in the recommendations. We purchased a v60 kit at the beginning of the year but are using it less than expected. But that is my fault. I really dislike using our grinder for both espresso and pour-over. Changing it back and forth is really irritating once the espresso is dialed in.

I am close to commiting to the Fellow Ode but am having a difficult time justifying the cost (in addition to our other grinder). The next step for me mostly depends on how dissatisfied my partner is about my lack of action on this purchase 😋
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My advice would be to drag your feet on the Ode purchase as long as possible. The 1.01 burr set apparently grinds only marginally finer than the 1.0 set which still places it on the cusp of not fine enough for the V60 or the AeroPress (depending on beans, methodology, and personal taste). In theory the Ode should start shipping with the 2.0 burrs in another month or two. Of course you can always buy a SSP burr set.
The stepped adjustment dial (goes up to 11!) is a bit oddly configured as almost any kind of pour over or AeroPress is going to use only the ≤3 settings. Personally I would have been less accommodating of cold process and French Press and made the steps finer for pour over.
I don't know whether Back Friday/Cyber Monday are as big a thing in Oz as they are in the USA but the discounts direct from Fellow were substantial in 2021.
 
LostHighway said:
In theory the Ode should start shipping with the 2.0 burrs in another month or two. Of course you can always buy a SSP burr set.
The stepped adjustment dial (goes up to 11!) is a bit oddly configured as almost any kind of pour over or AeroPress is going to use only the ≤3 settings. Personally I would have been less accommodating of cold process and French Press and made the steps finer for pour over.
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Some very recent chatter from a Fellow employee about the new burrs is on home-barista. In a later post he talks about the design process - an ungenerous interpretation of his post confirms your concerns. The company is very young and is being run by passionate enthusiasts. It is not necessary supported by people with deep knowledge of the tech and industry. A more generous interpretation of the post is that Fellow have staff who are passionate about their product, customers and coffee! They are learning quickly and eager to make a good product!

I look forward to seeing what customers say about the new burr set. For now all I know is that a guy called "nicholasnumbers" - who is self described as "not a burr designing expert" - reengineered the burrs to provide "more of an 'all around' unimodal burr with a spread". I dont intend to be disparaging. That is a pretty amazing effort! I am sure he is far more in tune with his coffee than I am. Yet the new design will be based on his preferences and it has not been market tested yet.


LostHighway said:
I don't know whether Back Friday/Cyber Monday are as big a thing in Oz as they are in the USA but the discounts direct from Fellow were substantial in 2021.
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Traditionally; no. But globalisation and cultural flattening is seeing it become more of a "thing". Particularly in the last two years when a lot of people were doing online shopping out of boredom!
 
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I really like my Wilfa Svart grinder. It's basically an Euro Baratza Encore competitor. Small, quiet, enough capacity for around 100g at a time, easy to clean, beautiful and sturdy. Bought it like 5 years ago and have been using it everyday since.

Probably not the most practical option for non-EU folks as it costs the same as the Encore (excl. shipping), but I thought it was worth sharing.
 
I finally did buy the Fellow Ode (refurbs currently available from Fellow for $224 and new units were recently on sale from the evil South American river for about the same amount). My preliminary observations are that it is very quiet (much quieter than the Baratza Virtuoso), relatively quick, and that so-far I've experienced only very minor grounds retention and no jamming. I haven't ventured any disassembly yet but it has a good heft and seems well built. With the stock burrs it grinds fine enough for Melitta, Chemex, or a Kalita 185. I haven't tried AeroPress or the V60 yet. The only potential downside at this early juncture is that Fellow product support is terrible relative to Baratza. If it fails within the one-year warranty period they replace your grinder with a new one but once out of that period you are effectively s.o.l. At the moment they are giving you a ten percent discount on a new one for out of warranty failures. You can buy replacement burrs but no other parts and they do not appear to have a service department or any DIY repair support. Baratza, by contrast, stocks almost any part you could possibly need at reasonable prices and does have a very helpful service department, at least in North America. They also have a reputation for being somewhat flexible with regards to charging for out of warranty work in borderline cases.
Once the burrs (stock) are a bit more worn in I'll report on grounds distribution but it appears that it may be better than the Virtuoso. This is not a grinder for espresso or Turkish even though it may grind fine enough with the SSP burrs, the motor just isn't built for it, nor is a grinder for high volumes (numerous liters per day).
 
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LostHighway said:
My venerable Baratza Viruoso grinder (with upgraded burrs) jammed this morning. Normally this isn't a huge problem but this time he hopper won't turn so I can't remove it and no amount to tapping and coaxing has helped. I will put in an advice request to Baratza, they're very good about support, but I fear that addressing this is going to mean destroying some plastic parts (replacements available through Baratza).
The question at hand is should I buy a new grinder and if so which one? Before anyone suggests small capacity hand grinders I should note that the first thing in the morning drill, if I'm having coffee as opposed to tea, is to brew a liter of coffee for the household. I need to be able to grind 55 - 65 g relatively quickly while half awake.
An unusually fast and large capacity hand grinder might be an option but I can't think of one off hand. I'm also not willing to spend a small fortune on a grinder so I'm mostly shopping in the $250 - $400 US realm. The grinder must have enough adjustment range to handle anything from French Press to V60, I don't care about espresso or Turkish, with a decent degree of precision. The Fellow Ode and the Baratza Virtuoso + immediately come to mind but I'm open to other suggestions. Product support definitely matters which excludes most PRC made grinders. Advice comrades?
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If you want a grinder that will last and last and easy to get replacement Burrs . You should look at Mazzer Coffee grinders from Italy. They make domestic versions ( Mazzer Mini) and there are thousands of them for sale second hand. Even a small commercial is good for home. The better the grind the better the coffee.
 
LostHighway said:
I finally did buy the Fellow Ode (refurbs currently available from Fellow for $224 and new units were recently on sale from the evil South American river for about the same amount). My preliminary observations are that it is very quiet (much quieter than the Baratza Virtuoso), relatively quick, and that so-far I've experienced only very minor grounds retention and no jamming. I haven't ventured any disassembly yet but it has a good heft and seems well built. With the stock burrs it grinds fine enough for Melitta, Chemex, or a Kalita 185. I haven't tried AeroPress or the V60 yet. The only potential downside at this early juncture is that Fellow product support is terrible relative to Baratza. If it fails within the one-year warranty period they replace your grinder with a new one but once out of that period you are effectively s.o.l. At the moment they are giving you a ten percent discount on a new one for out of warranty failures. You can buy replacement burrs but no other parts and they do not appear to have a service department or any DIY repair support. Baratza, by contrast, stocks almost any part you could possibly need at reasonable prices and does have a very helpful service department, at least in North America. They also have a reputation for being somewhat flexible with regards to charging for out of warranty work in borderline cases.
Once the burrs (stock) are a bit more worn in I'll report on grounds distribution but it appears that it may be better than the Virtuoso. This is not a grinder for espresso or Turkish even though it may grind fine enough with the SSP burrs, the motor just isn't built for it, nor is a grinder for high volumes (numerous liters per day).
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good choice, warranty aside.

I actually replaced my Forte BG with an Ode with SSP burrs and I think the Ode's cup quality is really high despite the low price. It's not as convenient being a single doser, but I love the results.

I have been really favoring Lance Hedrick's v60 recipe with this grinder, just super good, super consistent results.

My friend scored a monolith of which I am jealous, but I don't have the patience to chase the drops, and for that kind of money personally I have a bigger weakness for guitars.
 
Ant4d said:
If you want a grinder that will last and last and easy to get replacement Burrs . You should look at Mazzer Coffee grinders from Italy. They make domestic versions ( Mazzer Mini) and there are thousands of them for sale second hand. Even a small commercial is good for home. The better the grind the better the coffee.
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The Mazzer Mini is great. It's my espresso grinder. It's not exactly mini, and it seems aimed more at cafes then the home, but it is a seriously awesome grinder that will outlive me, I'm sure.
 
I should say that I would probably just get another Virtuoso. That's what I use for non-espresso. I'm on my second; the first lasted through 10 years of daily use. Uniformity of grind on French Press settings (I use 31), and the easy availability of parts and helpful instructions from Baratza have made me very loyal to this brand.
 
Do you think I would notice the difference in a Virtuoso vs Encore doing a pour over? Maybe sideways move?
 
coxhaus said:
Do you think I would notice the difference in a Virtuoso vs Encore doing a pour over? Maybe sideways move?
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No idea. I've never used the Encore, and I'm not sure what the differences are. Motor and burr, maybe? I think I'd look around for people's experiences.

With French Press, it is amazing to me just how important uniform particle size is, to the final experience, but I don't know whether that's as true for pour overs, nor whether the Encore delivers a less uniform particle size.
 
I got the Commandante C40 when it is still reasonably priced...Now it cost almost double the amount I pay, and the company is really being a dick to their competitors. That said tho it is an excellent pour over grinder, better than most electric at similar price range. I grind 20g-30g at most in one setting, but if you are grinding for a large machine then go electric.
 
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