Question about knife steels

[hibbs00]

Hey everyone, I'm looking to buy a new kitchen knife set under $300.
I'm looking at some on the MasterChef website or the henckles set. Both say high carbon stainless steel. Does that mean they're carbon steel knives? If not, will they still sharpen quick like carbon steel?
Also, are there any full sets anyone recommends under $300?

 

[Nemo]

Steel is iron with 0.1 - 2.0% carbon, so technically, all steel is carbon steel. Carbon is what makes steel harder than iron. Any steel with over 0.5% carbon can be called "high carbon".

However, when we say "carbon steel", we generally mean non-stainless steel.

By saying "high carbon stainless" I guess that they mean that it's a stainless with over 0.5% carbon. Probably Krupps/X50CrMoV15. This is a 0.5% carbon, fairly coarse grained stainless steel. Found in many mass market Western knives. Definitely not as fun to sharpen as the kind of non-stainless "carbon" steels that are common in the knives we talk about here.

Knife sets are not that popular here. We usually like to buy a different knife for each role.

You really only need 2 knives:
1) A chef's knife/ gyuto.
2) A petty/ utility knife.

Some people like a slicing knife (I do, but could eaily use a gyuto in stead) and others a paring knife (I don't).

If you cut a lot of bread (I don't, but others in my family do) a bread knife is worthwhile, but a cheap one would be very serviceable.

 

[ermghoti]

In addition to the above, there aren't any sets that feature good kvives at $300, outside of "sets" that are 2-3 knives anyway. On the other hand, an excellent gyuto or chef's knife can be found for $200-300, which is knife that does the bulk of the work. For their purpose, utility/petty, paring, and bread knives don't need to be expensive. The Victorinox 6" Chef has a utility knife profile, costs under $25, and just about can't be beaten. The same applies to their paring knife. For bread knives, Vic, Mercer, Dexter, and Tojiro all work about as well as any for $20-40.

 

[jacobwilder5]

Good advice here. However, if you’re set on a set , MAC has a nice 3 piece set with chef, petty, and bread knife that should cover your bases and be a meaningful upgrade.

Available on Amazon near your price. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BHMW8148?ref_=cm_sw_r_apin_dp_DZDV2C0ZMY7XFT5Q7CA9&language=en-US

 

[MowgFace]

Suisin Inox Westerns can be found for around $300, with some clever Amazon-Fu

210/240 Gyuto
240 Suji
150 petty

 

[Qapla']

Are you righty?

 

[hibbs00]

Steel is iron with 0.1 - 2.0% carbon, so technically, all steel is carbon steel. Carbon is what makes steel harder than iron. Any steel with over 0.5% carbon can be called "high carbon".

However, when we say "carbon steel", we generally mean non-stainless steel.

By saying "high carbon stainless" I guess that they mean that it's a stainless with over 0.5% carbon. Probably Krupps/X50CrMoV15. This is a 0.5% carbon, fairly coarse grained stainless steel. Found in many mass market Western knives. Definitely not as fun to sharpen as the kind of non-stainless "carbon" steels that are common in the knives we talk about here.

Knife sets are not that popular here. We usually like to buy a different knife for each role.

You really only need 2 knives:
1) A chef's knife/ gyuto.
2) A petty/ utility knife.

Some people like a slicing knife (I do, but could eaily use a gyuto in stead) and others a paring knife (I don't).

If you cut a lot of bread (I don't, but others in my family do) a bread knife is worthwhile, but a cheap one would be very serviceable.

Thank you, I'm glad to finally know. I'll have to think about getting them separately, that's a good idea. I really like the idea of a full set also with steak knives and all the works. Don't really like the idea of taking all day to sharpen if it's high carbon stainless now though.

Good advice here. However, if you’re set on a set , MAC has a nice 3 piece set with chef, petty, and bread knife that should cover your bases and be a meaningful upgrade.

Available on Amazon near your price. Amazon.com

Thank you, those are beautiful. I've never heard of them before.

Are you righty?

Yes, I am

In addition to the above, there aren't any sets that feature good kvives at $300, outside of "sets" that are 2-3 knives anyway. On the other hand, an excellent gyuto or chef's knife can be found for $200-300, which is knife that does the bulk of the work. For their purpose, utility/petty, paring, and bread knives don't need to be expensive. The Victorinox 6" Chef has a utility knife profile, costs under $25, and just about can't be beaten. The same applies to their paring knife. For bread knives, Vic, Mercer, Dexter, and Tojiro all work about as well as any for $20-40.

I kept seeing some victorinox but wasn't sure about their quality compared to wusthof and zwilling. I'll definitely be looking into them now

 

[YannR]

Tojiro DP Gyuto and Petty.

And a cheap Paring.

And you are still under 300$.
Keep what's left or get a nice cutting board or whetstone.

Done.

 

[Just a DK]

Tojiro DP Gyuto and Petty.

And a cheap Paring.

And you are still under 300$.
Keep what's left or get a nice cutting board or whetstone.

Done.

Yeah… Tojiro DP base set will come wayy under 300 to get whatever else you want to add on (knife block, steak knives, bread knife, good scissors, whetstone).

I would just avoid the instagram/kickstarter stuff. Knives are all about QC and heat treats and that stuff is 90% design and marketing.

 

[YannR]

Yeah… Tojiro DP base set will come wayy under 300 to get whatever else you want to add on (knife block, steak knives, bread knife, good scissors, whetstone).

I would just avoid the instagram/kickstarter stuff. Knives are all about QC and heat treats and that stuff is 90% design and marketing.

Yep, never buy any "ad knives"
"80% off"

 

[Seemore]

Here are some sets to consider. Other forum members might be able to comment on the worthiness of these makers.

And the store owner, Michael Shaw, is well known for providing some of the best service out there, including detailed discussions of particular knives for your intended use.

https://knifejapan.com/knife-types/knife-gift-sets/

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Sets suck. Most of the knives are just "throw-away" stuff. Meaning from a manufacturing point of view. There's a good bit of the cost in the block and then one or two of the main knives. That means there's only so much margin left for the other stuff. Blocks can also be nasty bacteria labs. Further, steak knives suck. While I have done it myself, there is little point in getting nice ones so any cheap stuff you find and trips your trigger will do.

I think you'll find a lot of us here have transitioned to cutting most things like steak on the board and slicing roasts and such as thin as possible. Just reduces the need for steak knives.

The other thing that sucks is using a crap main knife. This is the one you'll use the most so you want it to be good.

Here's what I'd consider for one of my family members if they were open to carbon steels:

https://tokushuknife.com/products/tsunehisa-210mm-as-aogami-super-gyuto
https://tokushuknife.com/products/t...ty-western-handle?_pos=3&_sid=8edca1d21&_ss=r
https://carbonknifeco.com/products/sakai-kikumori-nihonko-carbon-sujihiki-240mm
Those three knives will take you a looooong way, are very well made, and will last you many many years. Once you get a suji (you might even want to jump to a 270), you'll realize how much you like having one around. I have the one that is listed and it is nice and slicey but still robust enough for some general purpose tasks like pizza.

Also, @TokushuKnife offers members a 15% discount if you checkout with code KKF15. So you'd be a tad over your budget but I think very well worth it. Figure out your storage method and grab some cheap steak knives where you like. So yeah, a little more there, but again, well worth it.

 

[Jovidah]

'High carbon stainless steel' is mostly marketing term, since there's not really a legal definition of 'high carbon'. But since it does mention stainless steel (which generally does have some level of definition) you can expect those knives to be stainless rather than carbon.

But when knife people talk about carbon knife that mostly implies a non-stainless knife, a knife lacking in chromium. It doesn't actually say much about the carbon content.

I'm not a huge fan of sets since I've rarely ever seen one that makes sense. But probably best to fill out a knife questionaire... it helps to have an idea what you're really looking for and where you're coming from.

 

[Nemo]

Western stainless doesn't take all day to sharpen, even if it's a bit of a pain to deburr.

The main issues are that:
1) It doesn’t take as acute an edge and is can't be as thin behind the edge. Because it's soft (poor edge stability).
2) It doesn't take a fine polish. Because the steel matrix is a lot softer than the carbides.
3) It doesn't get nearly as sharp. I guess because of the coarse grain.

These characteristics are not because Western steelmaking is in anyway inferior to Japanese- they are a deliberate design decision given how Westerners tend to use their knives. They are designed to take abuse. The edge routinely fails by rolling over rather than chipping or abrasion, allowing the use of a sharpening steele to realign the edge.

They are thick behind the edge and should be sharpened at conservative (20ish dps) edge angles. This extra steel behind the edge supports the edge and adds toughness.

They are very stain resistant. I often find mundials which have been soaked in the sink for hours or days and they are fine. They have even been dishwashered (in the distant past). This degrades the edge and rots the rivets but my recollection is that the steel itself seemed fine.

 

[hibbs00]

Thank you everyone! I have a lot of looking around to do. I really appreciate it a lot. I'm trying to learn what I can. If anyone doesn't mind, could you tell me what you think of this set or pros and cons or something? I know it's against all the advice given, but I'm really kind of stuck on getting a full set of some sort.
https://us.masterchef.com/collectio...show-knife-block-offer-performance-collection

 

[blokey]

If you want to get a set I’d get something like Victorinox or Mercer, I have zero trust in masterchef afflicted stuff

 

[Jovidah]

Looks like it's probably just cheap made in China junk. Hard to say anyhting about quality but my expectations would be low. In general you're rarely getting good value when buying celebrity / tv-branded stuff.
Putting that aside, I also have issues with the set itself.
Having both an 8" chefknife and an 7" santoku is honestly rather redundant (2 knives fulfilling similar roles). Having an 8" carving knife while also having an 8" chef knife adds very little utility (and IMO one of the main flaws in these sets is that for the carving knife to be useful it should be longer than the chef knife, and especially longer than 8". 8" is also IMO too short for a bread knife.
The utility knife and paring knife could be okay, but are likely handle-heavy.
Cheap steak knives could be useful if you don't have any but they're mostly there as fillers to bulk up the set, same goes for the cheap scissors and sharpening steel.

Personally I'd take a manually selected combination of cheap Victorinox knives over this.

 

[hibbs00]

Looks like it's probably just cheap made in China junk. Hard to say anyhting about quality but my expectations would be low. In general you're rarely getting good value when buying celebrity / tv-branded stuff.
Putting that aside, I also have issues with the set itself.
Having both an 8" chefknife and an 7" santoku is honestly rather redundant (2 knives fulfilling similar roles). Having an 8" carving knife while also having an 8" chef knife adds very little utility (and IMO one of the main flaws in these sets is that for the carving knife to be useful it should be longer than the chef knife, and especially longer than 8". 8" is also IMO too short for a bread knife.
The utility knife and paring knife could be okay, but are likely handle-heavy.
Cheap steak knives could be useful if you don't have any but they're mostly there as fillers to bulk up the set, same goes for the cheap scissors and sharpening steel.

Personally I'd take a manually selected combination of cheap Victorinox knives over this.

Thank you. That's pretty much what I was wondering. I'm mostly set on a chef knife, bread knife, pairing, boning and steak knives. All that I would use the most

 

[Jovidah]

Personally I would somewhat 'prioritize' the budget towards the knives that see the most use. So for example if you only use a boning knife occasionally, there's nothing wrong with using an affordable option there like a Victorinox. Pretty much half the animals in the world are slaughtered with them... they're fine. Same goes for bread knives... they're hard to sharpen anyway, so many people follow a 'buy and replace' protocol there... personally I'm a huge fan of the Victorinox 26 cm pastry knives. The extra length is awesome for cutting actual bread, they're comfortable to use, actually cut bread well and they're super affordable.
Paring knives is.... a more difficult one; how much you want to invest there depends a lot on how much you actually use paring knives (some people use them constantly, others rarely use them).

With steak knives... how much investment (and what kind of steak knives to buy) also depends a bit on what kind of plates you intend to use it on. IMO there's no point in buying really nice straight edge steak knives if you're just going to dull them at the first use cutting on ceramic plates anyway. There is however something to be said for at least having nice handles. Plastic handles on for example Victorinox knives are fine in the kitchen but personally I really hate having plastic crap in my hand at the table.

 

[hibbs00]

Personally I would somewhat 'prioritize' the budget towards the knives that see the most use. So for example if you only use a boning knife occasionally, there's nothing wrong with using an affordable option there like a Victorinox. Pretty much half the animals in the world are slaughtered with them... they're fine. Same goes for bread knives... they're hard to sharpen anyway, so many people follow a 'buy and replace' protocol there... personally I'm a huge fan of the Victorinox 26 cm pastry knives. The extra length is awesome for cutting actual bread, they're comfortable to use, actually cut bread well and they're super affordable.
Paring knives is.... a more difficult one; how much you want to invest there depends a lot on how much you actually use paring knives (some people use them constantly, others rarely use them).

With steak knives... how much investment (and what kind of steak knives to buy) also depends a bit on what kind of plates you intend to use it on. IMO there's no point in buying really nice straight edge steak knives if you're just going to dull them at the first use cutting on ceramic plates anyway. There is however something to be said for at least having nice handles. Plastic handles on for example Victorinox knives are fine in the kitchen but personally I really hate having plastic crap in my hand at the table.

The steak knives I don't mind if they're cheap. The boning knife I would use a few times a week. Currently use my chef knife but have to sharpen that more often which isn't that great in the first place. Bread knife not too often. Pairing knife a medium amount. Thank you for all the help

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

The petty I listed can double as boning and paring. A Mercer 10" bread knife is cheap.

 

[hibbs00]

The petty I listed can double as boning and paring. A Mercer 10" bread knife is cheap.

That would be perfect. I'm also really interested in the gyuto. I will have to wait for new stock unfortunately. How do you store your knives if you don't use a block? Magnetic strips?

 

[Jovidah]

Personally I don't have such a huge problem with blocks... the main issue is that most of them suck and won't fit the knives I'd actually want to put in there. There's also the issue that if you have knives with fragile thin tips it's easy to miss the slot and stab the block instead... but I really think the hygiene aspect is overstated. Yes you can't clean it, but which filthy person ever puts dirty knives in their block?!

Magnets are definitly easier in use though.

While you can use a petty for boning work I'm not sure why you would when you use a boning knife several times a week. Probably makes more sense to buy a dedicated knife specialized for the job at that point. Using petties as paring knives is a bit of a mixed bag IMO. For in-hand work they're too long IMO, and its not like paring knives cost a fortune.

 

[hibbs00]

Personally I don't have such a huge problem with blocks... the main issue is that most of them suck and won't fit the knives I'd actually want to put in there. There's also the issue that if you have knives with fragile thin tips it's easy to miss the slot and stab the block instead... but I really think the hygiene aspect is overstated. Yes you can't clean it, but which filthy person ever puts dirty knives in their block?!

Magnets are definitly easier in use though.

While you can use a petty for boning work I'm not sure why you would when you use a boning knife several times a week. Probably makes more sense to buy a dedicated knife specialized for the job at that point. Using petties as paring knives is a bit of a mixed bag IMO. For in-hand work they're too long IMO, and its not like paring knives cost a fortune.

What I meant was I use my chefs knife as a boning knife because I don't have one but it requires me to sharpen my chefs knife more frequently. I do a lot of cooking and a lot of butchering and never been able to afford a decent set. Now I have some, not much, but some that I can spend on knives but don't know much about them since I couldn't afford them I figured what's the point in learning. Kind of biting me in the butt now because I just can't decide haha

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

That would be perfect. I'm also really interested in the gyuto. I will have to wait for new stock unfortunately. How do you store your knives if you don't use a block? Magnetic strips?

Yes, I use magnetic knife strips. Others knife holders in drawers, countertop stands, or blade guards.

Carbon has the Tsunehisa 210 in ginsan. It's a little more but would be an excellent consideration:
https://carbonknifeco.com/collections/tsunehisa-knives/products/tsunehisa-ginsan-migaki-gyuto-210mm
Ginsan is stainless but sharpens up like a carbon steel. I have a Tsunehisa ginsan nakiri and like it very much.

Also, for boning, there is nothing at all wrong with looking at Dexter or F. Dick. Good, purpose-built tools that are very inexpensive. The down side is them being pretty dedicated to that task.

 

[hibbs00]

Yes, I use magnetic knife strips. Others knife holders in drawers, countertop stands, or blade guards.

Carbon has the Tsunehisa 210 in ginsan. It's a little more but would be an excellent consideration:
https://carbonknifeco.com/collections/tsunehisa-knives/products/tsunehisa-ginsan-migaki-gyuto-210mm
Ginsan is stainless but sharpens up like a carbon steel. I have a Tsunehisa ginsan nakiri and like it very much.

Also, for boning, there is nothing at all wrong with looking at Dexter or F. Dick. Good, purpose-built tools that are very inexpensive. The down side is them being pretty dedicated to that task.

Thank you! I'm pretty sure that's what I'm gonna go with. Is there any special care instructions I should know about?

 

[AT5760]

Always hand wash the knife, try not to leave it submerged in water, and even though it is stainless, dry it when you get done washing it.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Thank you! I'm pretty sure that's what I'm gonna go with. Is there any special care instructions I should know about?

Always hand wash the knife, try not to leave it submerged in water, and even though it is stainless, dry it when you get done washing it.

Just this.

 

[hibbs00]

Just this.

Since it's Japanese I'm assuming sharpen at about 15° angle?

 

[Seemore]

Sets suck

Don’t equivocate like that. Tell us what you really think.