Receiving a warped/bent knife

[Danejah]

Sadly this happens, the reality of soft Sanmai blade is that they are more susceptible to minor bent and not spring back like a monosteel. Tho that said under enough force a monosteel would simply break whereas Sanmai could still be fixable. Here’s a example of my bad packaging combined with UPS brutal force

Yes, it’s not out of the question that this may have happened en route and don’t doubt he inspected the knife. I didn’t come here to bash JNS but rather get some other opinions and ultimately learn. I do retract my statement made of taking my money elsewhere but it is frustrating finding an issue like this with a blade and not knowing the how.

 

[esoo]

In regards to the flaws, the Blacksmith will send out what he considers ok (sometimes that will be a bit wavy ), the vendor may fix it even more after that (or not) and the customer gets what the blacksmith and the vendor consider good enough. If your after perfection you need to go down the manufactured line, I'm yet to come across a flawless handmade knife.

I’m not privy to the agreements between smiths and vendors, but I have an expectation when I buy a blade - that it better be straight. This has only been missed twice for me and both vendors did the right thing (above and beyond their policies in fact)

If a smith can’t put a straight edge on their knives, I don’t want them. If the edge isn’t straight, then the grind is messed up. And if the edge and grind are messed up, it will be a long term nightmare. Sure there may still be other problems in a straight knife (like an overgrind further up from the edge) but those will later in the blades life.

Why should some smiths get a pass when others can get it right almost all the time?

 

[blokey]

I’m not privy to the agreements between smiths and vendors, but I have an expectation when I buy a blade - that it better be straight. This has only been missed twice for me and both vendors did the right thing (above and beyond their policies in fact)

If a smith can’t put a straight edge on their knives, I don’t want them. If the edge isn’t straight, then the grind is messed up. And if the edge and grind are messed up, it will be a long term nightmare. Sure there may still be other problems in a straight knife (like an overgrind further up from the edge) but those will later in the blades life.

Why should some smiths get a pass when others can get it right almost all the time?

I agree with most of these, I think vendors and makers should pay more attention since Japanese knife price has raised significantly in the decades. Tho that said I seems to be lucky with all my purchases these year from various vendors, no bends. Personally I still have some tolerance for some very small unevenness in handmade stuff that I won’t tolerate in factory knives.

 

[bsfsu]

I’m not privy to the agreements between smiths and vendors, but I have an expectation when I buy a blade - that it better be straight. This has only been missed twice for me and both vendors did the right thing (above and beyond their policies in fact)

If a smith can’t put a straight edge on their knives, I don’t want them. If the edge isn’t straight, then the grind is messed up. And if the edge and grind are messed up, it will be a long term nightmare. Sure there may still be other problems in a straight knife (like an overgrind further up from the edge) but those will later in the blades life.

Why should some smiths get a pass when others can get it right almost all the time?

I like the "almost all the time".

I don't think Smith's should "get a pass" but if it is up to their standard that's their standard. You might have a higher standard but that's their standard and I don't think that the industry in Japan is gonna change quickly.

With the grind though, knives offen warp/bend when being ground and are straightened after.

Price, pay more higher expectations, pay less lower expectations.

 

[blokey]

TBH sometimes you pay high and still get “Wabi Sabi”, I’ve bought some cheaper Seki factory knife and none of them are bend. I understand even with some of the current pricing Japanese smiths still don’t get much raise, I guess the duty of checking and correcting fall on the vendors.

 

[bsfsu]

TBH sometimes you pay high and still get “Wabi Sabi”, I’ve bought some cheaper Seki factory knife and none of them are bend. I understand even with some of the current pricing Japanese smiths still don’t get much raise, I guess the duty of checking and correcting fall on the vendors

Something that we don't consider in the west is the Japanese economy, steel prices have gone up around 40% in the last year and the average wage has gone up 4% in the past 30 or so years.

"Annual real wages in Japan averaged about $39,000 in 2020 at purchasing power parity last year, an increase of just 4% from 30 years earlier, according to data by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development."

 

[Corradobrit1]

OP bought a Munetoshi. The question was about other brands.

I agree that QC could be improved. All I was doing though, is pointing out another maker that has a reputation for bad f&f that is popular. With quite a bit fanbase and justifiers of poor QC.

I received a bad Morihei TF 210 fine finish a couple of years ago. That one had a weird action towards the heel, on the board which raised some immediate concerns. It was clearly bent. There really is no excuse for a bent or warped blade, especially a san mai. I am a bit more lenient with crooked handle installs but bent blades on a new knife.... that one goes straight back to the vendor.

 

[Corradobrit1]

Something that we don't consider in the west is the Japanese economy, steel prices have gone up around 40% in the last year and the average wage has gone up 4% in the past 30 or so years.

"Annual real wages in Japan averaged about $39,000 in 2020 at purchasing power parity last year, an increase of just 4% from 30 years earlier, according to data by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development."

Yeah but what is the actual raw materials cost in a knife? Lets say $10? A 40% increase in steel prices raises the cost to $14. Finished blade prices have increased far higher so someone is making a killing.

 

[bsfsu]

Yeah but what is the actual raw materials cost in a knife? Lets say $10? A 40% increase in steel prices raises the cost to $14. Finished blade prices have increased far higher so someone is making a killing.

No one in the Japanese knife game is making a killing, blacksmiths costs going up, vendors costs going up.

The demand from the western world for Japanese knives has increased but the production hasn't increased much. In my experience I have a few customers that spend lots on knives but most customers buy 1 or 2 knives and that's it. It's not a high volume game.

I started a knife shop so I could afford to buy some nice knives, haven't had a wage in 3 years .

 

[maxim]

Yeah but what is the actual raw materials cost in a knife? Lets say $10? A 40% increase in steel prices raises the cost to $14. Finished blade prices have increased far higher so someone is making a killing.

Now where I buy steel for some of the makers, it is for sure not 10 USD maybe on some super low quality steel, also there is a failing rate both on steel, handle, stones, machines and more, repairing mashines got also very expensive in Japan , coal, gas, handle makers, box makers all gone up a lot

 

[Corradobrit1]

Now where I buy steel for some of the makers, it is for sure not 10 USD maybe on some super low quality steel, also there is a failing rate both on steel, handle, stones, machines and more, repairing mashines got also very expensive in Japan , coal, gas, handle makers, box makers all gone up a lot

I'm sure. The point I was making is that raw material costs account for a fairly small fraction of the total costs involved in making a knife. So the 40% rise in steel prices is not as meaningful as might sound.

 

[esoo]

I like the "almost all the time".

I don't think Smith's should "get a pass" but if it is up to their standard that's their standard. You might have a higher standard but that's their standard and I don't think that the industry in Japan is gonna change quickly.

With the grind though, knives offen warp/bend when being ground and are straightened after.

Price, pay more higher expectations, pay less lower expectations.

I specifically put in the almost all the time as everyone has a bad day. I've had a knife where I could tell the sharpener gave up. Not that it was bad, just not up to the level of the rest of the product I had from the same sharpener. Incomplete finish on the spine on a knife way up in the price range. It does happen.

I get that below a certain price point, there is going to be compromises. Finish work = time = cost. Less than $X means hard edges everywhere. There will be uneveness along the blade road. And sure, below a certain price there may be bends. But for bends, that price should be pretty low, as that affects everything about a knife.

And yeah, I do vote with my wallet. In part, as when you order online, it can get way too pricey to ship a bad blade back. Shipping outside of Canada can get expensive, so I don't really want to return a blade.

 

[esoo]

Now where I buy steel for some of the makers, it is for sure not 10 USD maybe on some super low quality steel, also there is a failing rate both on steel, handle, stones, machines and more, repairing mashines got also very expensive in Japan , coal, gas, handle makers, box makers all gone up a lot

Let's be honest. It's not like shirogami is an expensive steel. Just pulling up a US supply house, 26c3 which is comparable to shirogami, can be had in a size to make 8x 240mm knives as stock removal for $12/knife. Sure that's not counting shipping, but it's not like Magnacut which is 5x the price (and is a lot more work to machine)

 

[blokey]

Sadly this happens, the reality of soft Sanmai blade is that they are more susceptible to minor bent and not spring back like a monosteel. Tho that said under enough force a monosteel would simply break whereas Sanmai could still be fixable. Here’s a example of my bad packaging combined with UPS brutal force
View attachment 255490

If anyone’s worried, Jon fixed it expertly, one advantage of Sanmai blade…

 

[ethompson]

It’s also not like this is unusual to knives. I mentioned earlier that most of the Knives that I come across my bench are warped in one way or another, but I think it’s important to call out that the number that are truly bad and really would cause issues is pretty slim. Most of the time of the small warps, etc. wouldn’t even really cause an issue until you want to thin a knife.

What’s the problem here, is that we are the 1% of the 1% of kitchen knife enthusiasts. we are the crazies who do stuff like stone polish our bevels keep things nail flexing at all times and go over a knife millimeter by millimeter. Unless you are paying $800 or more, I think it’s unreasonable to expect really really clean grinds and straightness. The reality is the vast majority of the time these things have no impact on the performance of the knife, and wouldn’t be noticed even by many enthusiasts.

My other primary hobby is golf. People get just as into their specs and grinds there as they do here maybe even more so at the extreme end. A set of golf clubs is definitely more of a manufactured commodity than handmade kitchen knives, and even then there is widely accepted variance. It is well known that if you want perfection in your specs and everything to be spot on you either need to do it yourself or send it to one of 2 to 3 shops in the United States that can handle that kind of work and do it with that level of precision. You pay for that privilege, it can easily double the cost of a new set of golf clubs from the manufacture, and the reality is that most people opt out of it because it just really doesn’t matter. most people aren’t gonna notice a 2 to 3g+ variance or a quarter inch length variance on a golf club. I think it’s a similar thing with Knives.

 

[KenjiF]

It’s also not like this is unusual to knives. I mentioned earlier that most of the Knives that I come across my bench are warped in one way or another, but I think it’s important to call out that the number that are truly bad and really would cause issues is pretty slim. Most of the time of the small warps, etc. wouldn’t even really cause an issue until you want to thin a knife.

What’s the problem here, is that we are the 1% of the 1% of kitchen knife enthusiasts. we are the crazies who do stuff like stone polish our bevels keep things nail flexing at all times and go over a knife millimeter by millimeter. Unless you are paying $800 or more, I think it’s unreasonable to expect really really clean grinds and straightness. The reality is the vast majority of the time these things have no impact on the performance of the knife, and wouldn’t be noticed even by many enthusiasts.

My other primary hobby is golf. People get just as into their specs and grinds there as they do here maybe even more so at the extreme end. A set of golf clubs is definitely more of a manufactured commodity than handmade kitchen knives, and even then there is widely accepted variance. It is well known that if you want perfection in your specs and everything to be spot on you either need to do it yourself or send it to one of 2 to 3 shops in the United States that can handle that kind of work and do it with that level of precision. You pay for that privilege, it can easily double the cost of a new set of golf clubs from the manufacture, and the reality is that most people opt out of it because it just really doesn’t matter. most people aren’t gonna notice a 2 to 3g+ variance or a quarter inch length variance on a golf club. I think it’s a similar thing with Knives.

I keep seeing tamahagne golf clubs on Buyee... don't want to be an enabler but...

 

[ethompson]

I keep seeing tamahagne golf clubs on Buyee... don't want to be an enabler but...

Thankfully I have wayyyy less tinkering urge there then with knives and stones. I basically have everything just the way I like and I’ll be damned if I’m gonna change

 

[KenjiF]

yeah, full bench stone polish on a golf club would be a bit extra... but if someone could do it it would be you.

 

[Byphy]

Bent knives aren’t hard to fix. But if theres a twist, F me.

I’ve eased my expectations on F&F, I used to be pissed if the kanji was struck. But its all subjective.

 

[banzai_burrito]

I keep seeing tamahagne golf clubs on Buyee... don't want to be an enabler but...

No doubt made by Kami-putt-ko and Drive-strong

 

[blokey]

TBH unless the edge bent showed in OP’s pictures was caused by shipping, I still think it is very not desirable, and it is a thing that could easily fixed by makers or vendors rather than end users

 

[naptight]

Hey is it all right if I ask for feedback on a knife I recently purchased? It's a Kyohei Shindo Warikomi Blue #2 Kurouchi 165mm Bunka with Keyaki Handle. It has a slight bend, maybe a twist. It's probably around 0.4 - 0.5 mm. This knife won't need to be thinned for a long time. Is this something I could repair with the straightening stick? Should I bother trying to get the bend out with a straightening stick?

 

[McMan]

Hey is it all right if I ask for feedback on a knife I recently purchased? It's a Kyohei Shindo Warikomi Blue #2 Kurouchi 165mm Bunka with Keyaki Handle. It has a slight bend, maybe a twist. It's probably around 0.4 - 0.5 mm. This knife won't need to be thinned for a long time. Is this something I could repair with the straightening stick? Should I bother trying to get the bend out with a straightening stick?View attachment 263023View attachment 263024

Is the spine on the stone? If so, that's going to throw things off.
Orient it so that everything but the very edge is off the stone. Even this way, differential thickness BTE can throw things off. For example, if the tip won't touch the stone regardless of which side of the knife is a result of taper.

 

[KenjiF]

That looks like a bend to me. I can't tell 100% from the photos and the best way to tell I think is to sight straight down the edge and spine with the tip or heel facing towards you. If it's an over-grind id still fix it so you have bevels laying as flat as possible on stones and you don't mess up more geometry as you sharpen. Here is what I would do... Chime in if you see any errors or improvements in the method folks!

Sight down the spine. Is that straight? Sight down the edge. Is that straight? If both are bent the same way use your straightening stick on the spine. Usually, the groove on the straightening stick is deep enough that it will bend the whole blade but if it's not you can bend the edge without fixing the spine if you bend from the edge side. You can of course adjust this by switching but because the spine spine adjustment tends to do a more even correction across the whole blade I would start there.

If just the edge is bent straighten from that side. This type of bend actually requires 2 corrections to fix with a straightening stick. First, you want to bring the tip into alignment with the bend. Here you will place the straightening stick on the point where the straight part of the knife (from the tip) meets the start of the bend. Bend the straight part to line up with the bend. This will feel a bit weird because instead of having 2 bends that create a U shape you will have 1 bend that is more extreme. Once you have straightened that portion move to where the now straightened portion of the blade meets the last bend and correct it.

You can definitely do this type of repair with a straightening stick but my preferred method if there is a hump like that on a san mai knife is to take a brass mallet and tap on the hill of the hump over a slight depression on a stump. Tap, check, and tap again until it's fixed.

Let me know if any of that doesn't make sense and I can try and make a short vid.

 

[naptight]

That looks like a bend to me. I can't tell 100% from the photos and the best way to tell I think is to sight straight down the edge and spine with the tip or heel facing towards you. If it's an over-grind id still fix it so you have bevels laying as flat as possible on stones and you don't mess up more geometry as you sharpen. Here is what I would do... Chime in if you see any errors or improvements in the method folks!

Sight down the spine. Is that straight? Sight down the edge. Is that straight? If both are bent the same way use your straightening stick on the spine. Usually, the groove on the straightening stick is deep enough that it will bend the whole blade but if it's not you can bend the edge without fixing the spine if you bend from the edge side. You can of course adjust this by switching but because the spine spine adjustment tends to do a more even correction across the whole blade I would start there.

If just the edge is bent straighten from that side. This type of bend actually requires 2 corrections to fix with a straightening stick. First, you want to bring the tip into alignment with the bend. Here you will place the straightening stick on the point where the straight part of the knife (from the tip) meets the start of the bend. Bend the straight part to line up with the bend. This will feel a bit weird because instead of having 2 bends that create a U shape you will have 1 bend that is more extreme. Once you have straightened that portion move to where the now straightened portion of the blade meets the last bend and correct it.

You can definitely do this type of repair with a straightening stick but my preferred method if there is a hump like that on a san mai knife is to take a brass mallet and tap on the hill of the hump over a slight depression on a stump. Tap, check, and tap again until it's fixed.

Let me know if any of that doesn't make sense and I can try and make a short vid.

Thanks. Technically it's a warikomi construction. It's really hard to tell what's going on with the spine. It's so thick yet tapered and asymmetric. But, I think it's mostly straight and the bend is at the lower 1/3 near edge. It's an extremely thin grind, so I don't think it's an overgrind as much as ours just a bend. I'll try one of these techniques.

 

[KenjiF]

Oh yeah, thick boi out of the spine. Same process for Warikomi. Really hard to tell from pics but it looks like there is a corresponding bend 1/3 of the way up on the spine. The nice thing about a San mai/warikomi knife is it's easy to correct and you're not going to snap it with a bending stick on a bend like that.

 

[naptight]

Good to know! Ty