You should stop making this out like I'm trying to dis you personally.
Review: Sukenari AS 225mm Gyuto
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What I'm seeing is you talking way over your head about Sukenari as well as criticizing my review for missing stuff that was there, or meaning stuff it didn't...
And of course, gathering nothing but people telling you you're wrong as a result.
So your saying I should be a misinformed? Not read the Japanese reviews, not read the makers opinion of the the knife b4 I buy it? Like you guys said, we buy knives for different reasons, and yet when I list my reasons and info, you want to say I'm speaking non sense, I'm wrong, I'm being negetive.
spaceconvoy
Senior Member
Not sharpening your knives is a big reason to skip. It makes a lot more sense now, if you're going for maximum edge retention those steels are perfect. But making it all about hrc without discussing carbides, and push cutting instead of edge retention, is very confusing.
So, you've never tried a fresh knife out of the box?
Hardness =/= push cutting automatically.
Thin at and behind the edge = push cutting.
Hardness plays a roll, to a point. Has to be stiff enough to hold a thin edge. A very high hardness and high amount of carbide steel is going to, generally speaking, have a hard time holding a thin edge.
Thin at and behind the edge = push cutting.
Hardness plays a roll, to a point. Has to be stiff enough to hold a thin edge. A very high hardness and high amount of carbide steel is going to, generally speaking, have a hard time holding a thin edge.
Agreed, though stiffness is more a function of overall blade geometry than hardness. Thicker knives are stiffer, all else equal. Taller knives will be stiffer than shorter knives at the same hardness. For example, a Takeda gyuto (quite tall) will be stiffer than a Takeda sasanoha of the same length, even though they're the same hardness and thickness. HRC is about edge retention more than anything else.
And I wouldn't consider Sukenaris "push cutters." They're fine at push cutting, but the profile doesn't make them especially great at it. I'd prefer a larger flat spot if I was buying a knife for push cutting.
Anyway, nice review. I really want a 225mm-ish HAP40 Sukenari hairline with a k-tip and a generous flat spot. But I already have too many knives...
And I wouldn't consider Sukenaris "push cutters." They're fine at push cutting, but the profile doesn't make them especially great at it. I'd prefer a larger flat spot if I was buying a knife for push cutting.
Anyway, nice review. I really want a 225mm-ish HAP40 Sukenari hairline with a k-tip and a generous flat spot. But I already have too many knives...
I am so confused about what you are saying. You‘ve criticized this review and claimed sukenari was wasted on this review based only on the hardness of some sukenari knives. What does the hardness of the steel have to do with the cutting technique that you prefer? You can push cut with any knife. Some geometries are more appropriate to push cutting than others, such as flatter profiles. Thinner blades are also more appropriate for push cutting. Nakiri and Chinese vegetable cleaver are 2 prime examples of geometries that excel at push cutting. Most Chinese vegetable cleavers are made out of relatively soft steel and yet they are great at push cutting. Many Japanese knives that are made harder yet are not good at push cutting even though you could use this technique as well. You can make a German style chef knife with a very curvy edge, heat treat it very hard and it would still not be ideal at push cutting just because of the shape of the edge. Or you could have a very hard edge that was thick above the edge that would not excel at push cutting either. Hardness has very little to do with how well the knife behaves while push cutting. I also missed in the original review where the author claimed he didn’t push cut with this knife or that it was bad at it or any mention of the cutting technique used. Non ktip sukenari gyutos are good general purpose knives, the geometry is such that they work well for different cutting techniques, but don’t seem to be made specifically to excel at any particular technique. Please point to some references where the manufacturer says otherwise, since you claim that they do.
Honestly this is a very strange question to challenge people with on a forum halfway filled with sharpening fanatics.
Since I became halfway decent at sharpening I haven’t encountered an OOTB edge that I couldn’t make sharper with a few minutes on either stone or strop, and I’ve been at it for less than a year. Even knives from actual professional sharpeners turned bladesmith were pretty mediocre OOTB, e.g. Shibata Koutetsu and Myojin.
I'm quite confused myself of the above discussion.
I beg you to realize that the picture was taken with my phone in one hand and the other hand trying to hold the caliper stiffly enough that it also held the knife from falling aside. Hint: knife was sharp, so this was no fun exercise. And of course I was wary of not inflicting damage for a shot.
I can assure you you're right though. Not much control in such a stance so I had to slowly release pressure until hitting about the same number I had gotten doing it properly with two free hands. Goal of the picture was not the "right" number on the caliper as much as to show the dots behind the edge I measure from, and where the point of the clamp lands when measuring 1mm BTE.
I beg you to realize that the picture was taken with my phone in one hand and the other hand trying to hold the caliper stiffly enough that it also held the knife from falling aside. Hint: knife was sharp, so this was no fun exercise. And of course I was wary of not inflicting damage for a shot.
I can assure you you're right though. Not much control in such a stance so I had to slowly release pressure until hitting about the same number I had gotten doing it properly with two free hands. Goal of the picture was not the "right" number on the caliper as much as to show the dots behind the edge I measure from, and where the point of the clamp lands when measuring 1mm BTE.
Who said I challenged, I said what I thought of the blade, and I'm getting attacked.
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
Damn, I better ask my girlfriend to return her knife before the Sukenari police arrests her for occasionally rockchopping with it...
If more people are throwing theirs away hit me up; maybe I can arrange a knife-asylum.
If more people are throwing theirs away hit me up; maybe I can arrange a knife-asylum.
Look, I now realize we come from 2 different mindset. I talk to Japanese people about what they look for in a knife.
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
These statements seem at odds with eachother...
Well read between the lines then, he was the one who called me names and accused me of stuff, I haven't said one thing bad about him- the person.
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
Your first statement already sounded rude and insulting. That may not have been how you intended it, but that's how it came across when typed out on the internet. 
That was about the review not the person.Your first statement already sounded rude and insulting. That may not have been how you intended it, but that's how it came across when typed out on the internet.
spaceconvoy
Senior Member
it keeps getting better
brb, consulting my shinto priest over whether I should respect the wabi sabi of microchipped edges or if sharpening a knife insults the blacksmith's honor
Look your all right. I'm preaching to a bunch of people who modify their knives. Sorry for the distraction today. I just try to learn what my teachers are teaching me.
People that tell me, leave, don't argue. Bye.
tostadas
Hobbyist / Craftsman
Are you saying that because I happen not to be Japanese that I can't determine what the knife is good for or that I can't tell that hardness has nothing to do with the cutting technique the knife excels at?
What I'm saying is I walked myself in on a 5 senior member and 2 accessory fight over what someone else wrote. Great Poem, you happy?
I have a 240 hap40 Sukenari k-tip. Its an amazing all-rounder that is my main work knife now. It would not be in my top ten knives I would grab to "push cut" but I'm sure everyones definition of what push cutting is different.
spaceconvoy
Senior Member
Now you're making feel slightly bad for piling on with the jokes (but only slightly). Here's my attempt at repentance with something on topic:
I've given up trying to find the perfect do-everything gyuto, and instead have been collecting knives that each fit a certain niche. I keep my Sukenari around because it's excellent at shredding cabbage and kale, and slicing in general. Yes, the tip is thick, but its stiffness and tip-heaviness is an advantage when dealing with a big pile of soft ingredients. It's also perfect for big loaves of bread.
I keep mine around because it's possibly the most beautiful thing I own. But back to the original post and review.
Like the OP, I was surprised to see that the spine and choil on his hairline AS were so square. I thought everything was rounded -- my damascus ones are lovingly rounded on both spine and choil... the best rounding on any of my knvies. But I was happy to hear the OP's first-hand experience of the heat treatment on the steel. I once had it in my mind to track down the legendarily super-hard damascus AS version just to see what all the fuss was about, but I eventually came to think that if I was going to buy another Sukenari just for super-hard steel, it'd be the HAP40. I quite enjoyed hearing the OP's thoughts and seeing all those photos.
Like the OP, I was surprised to see that the spine and choil on his hairline AS were so square. I thought everything was rounded -- my damascus ones are lovingly rounded on both spine and choil... the best rounding on any of my knvies. But I was happy to hear the OP's first-hand experience of the heat treatment on the steel. I once had it in my mind to track down the legendarily super-hard damascus AS version just to see what all the fuss was about, but I eventually came to think that if I was going to buy another Sukenari just for super-hard steel, it'd be the HAP40. I quite enjoyed hearing the OP's thoughts and seeing all those photos.
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The fight is not over what someone else said. It is about what you said. You've made statements that are incorrect and made no sense. You've insulted someone else's review without providing any valid counter points. Everyone is welcomed here, this is a very nice and helpful place most of the time, but when you come with an attitude and very strong, incorrect opinions you need to be able to back them up. When you pretend to be an expert you are expected to know some basic things and you haven't so far shown to know them. You might very well know what you are talking about and know more than the rest of us, but so far it hasn't been displayed in what you've said.
Jville
I used to work in a Mexican restaurant
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I have read all your comments. I’m replying to all of them in general. I’m simply quoting this one for ease… You sound like a pretentious little brat. As if you were a rich teenager whose daddy had a knife collection and showed you a few things and you went off to show the world how great you are. Sad thing is you are probably a grown man, but I can only hope that you are an adolescent, because your comments would make much more sense then. The people in this thread were actually quite patient with you, despite your spoiled brat antics. The things you have commented on make no sense. You also said stuff like “I don’t sharpen.”, yet you want to run your mouth like you are sone type of guru. Even hard steel knives will need sharpening, not that it should even need to be mentioned. Also you made the pretentious statement that people round here only use 58-62 hrc, which is absolutely ridiculous. The collections that people have around here the majority have used and owned knifes harder than that. And your approach as hrc is the end all be all of a knife is ridiculous. Also acting like everyone is going around “modifying” their knifes, and of course, your push cutting rant. Also your continual drop of you talking to Japanese people about knives touting yourself as superior in knowledge, when you don’t even seem to know the basics is hilarious. You remind me of this punk kid I worked with who had a few knifes from Japan when he visited. The kid couldn’t sharpen them properly, so they had become super thick behind the edge. He didn’t even know what type of steel his knives were yet he pretentiously told me his knives were better than mine, because he scoffingly said I got mine on the internet so they couldn’t be that great. You might want to talk to your Japanese friends about sone humility and knowing what the h$&@ you are talking about, before running your mouth. It’s not wrong to have a difference of opinion, but the way you ignorantly ran your mouth is just foolish.
