Sharpening angle?

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J

Jim Beam

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Disclaimer: Yes, I did a search on this topic. And found far too many threads for my lazy ass to sort through.

I tried for years to sharpen my kitchen knives on stones and got pretty decent results, but I really enjoy a very sharp knife so I recently went to a sharpening system. I'm quite happy with it. First time through with all of my knives, I tried to match the existing angle as best I could with the Sharpie method. Second time through I tried to measure the angle on each knife using a angle-finding app on my smartphone to make set-up quicker. What I found was that I was sharpening at 7 to 8 degrees per side, which would put my edges at 14 to 16 degrees. That seems a bit low. What is the correct range for kitchen knives? I have read that 15 to 20 degrees is the correct range. So maybe I'm just on the low side of that range and I'm OK? Your comments are appreciated.
 
I wonder how reliable an angle-measure-app is...
If it is really 7-8 degrees, it sounds kind off (too) low.

You might be able to check: do you have a cheap knife? You know, such a 5 knives for 10 dollar kind of knife.
Measure this angle. No way this is sharpened at 7-8 degrees per side.
 
WoW. I have never chipped an edge like that! HE says he did it chopping zucchini ??
 
My experience... don't obsess too much about the angles. They only really matter a lot if a knife is too thick behind the edge (so they start influencing the geometry); if a knife is proper thin behind the edge it becomes less important. Therefore I usually go for something somewhat conservative and easy, like 15 degrees per side for japanese steel (or more lik 20 for soft German). If I go asymmetric I tend to do something like 10 degrees on the right. But frankly you gain more from focusing on keeping it thin behind the edge than on min-maxing specific edge angles.
Mike's answer is solid; you basically want to compromise between durability and performance, but most important thing is that you can sharpen it consistently.
 
I don't thin, so sharpening angle makes a different to me at between 20 and 15 degrees. I had a Henckels 4star salmon knife that I used for sushi in the old days. I don't really know much about sushi other than how well my salmon knife cuts raw fish. The salmon knife worked great when it was new. I then sharpened it to 20 degrees with a Worksharp and it would not cut my fish well. I put it aside and bought a different knife. I sharpen the salmon knife at 15 degrees using the Worksharp KO and the salmon knife worked like it was new again. It cut raw fish well now. So, to me the sharpening angle makes a difference to me..
 
I sharpen at 10-12 degree per side. It gives me better edge retention and better cutting feeling than 15-20 degree per side edge even when the knife is pretty thin bte. I sometimes go even lower but it's more difficult to avoid scratching the surface when then angle is very low.
 
I have a Henckels 4star 7-inch thin santoku and a thin Wusthof 5.5-inch santoku which I am going to try and sharpen at 11 degrees and see what happens. I don't use these knives any more so I want to try it. I want see if the edges chip or curl.

I also wonder if edges are stronger if you don't thin.
 
coxhaus said:
I have a Henckels 4star 7-inch thin santoku and a thin Wusthof 5.5-inch santoku which I am going to try and sharpen at 11 degrees and see what happens. I don't use these knives any more so I want to try it. I want see if the edges chip or curl.

I also wonder if edges are stronger if you don't thin.
Click to expand...

Stronger, yes. At the cost of cutting performance.
One of the things is, you use more strength during cutting. I wouldnt be surprised if the edge retention isnt better or just slighty improves at the cost of loosing too much cutting souplesse, due to the fact that you hit your board harder.
 
[QUOTE="Kawa, post: 853512, member: 45703
Stronger, yes. At the cost of cutting performance.
One of the things is, you use more strength during cutting. I wouldnt be surprised if the edge retention isnt better or just slighty improves at the cost of loosing too much cutting souplesse, due to the fact that you hit your board harder.
[/QUOTE]
Couldn't agree more. In fact, the edge retention will suffer from the thickening behind the edge.
What makes me curious about the thickness of the shoulders that has now been reached, @coxhaus. Normally i aim for 0.2mm behind the bevels. German soft stainless come with some 0.35-0.4mm OOTB. How about it now after years of sharpening without thinning?
 
I hardly care about the angles of the primary edge, provided the inclusive angle isn't lower than 25 degrees if board contact is taking place. When thin enough behind the edge, you may increase the edge's angles without loss of performance but great improvement of edge retention.
Some knives come OOTB with an edge that is not meant to be used as such. It is only service to the end-user who put his own edge on it with just a few strokes. If you find an edge of 15 degrees inclusive you may be sure you better don't use it as such. No such an edge will survive any board contact. I once received a honesuki with a 6 degree per side edge.

If you're fine with an existing configuration, you may start the sharpening behind the edge at a very low angle and only little by little raising the spine, until you've reached the very edge which you may verify by watching the scratch pattern or the sharpie, best using a loupe. An obvious burr should be present on the other side. Repeat the same operation there, again starting far behind the edge at a very low angle.
This procedure allows you to splendidly ignore any angle or proportions or any figures, and restore a previous configuration in its new, thinned location.
 
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Benuser said:
I hardly care about the angles of the primary edge, provided the inclusive angle isn't lower than 25 degrees if board contact is taking place. When thin enough behind the edge, you may increase the edge's angles without loss of performance but great improvement of edge retention.
Some knives come OOTB with an edge that is not meant to be used as such. It is only service to the end-user who put his own edge on it with just a few strokes. If you find an edge of 15 degrees inclusive you may be sure you better don't use it as such. No such an edge will survive any board contact. I once received a honesuki with a 6 degree per side edge.

If you're fine with an existing configuration, you may start the sharpening behind the edge at a very low angle and only little by little raising the spine, until you've reached the very edge which you may verify by watching the scratch pattern or the sharpie, best using a loupe. An obvious burr should be present on the other side. Repeat the same operation there, again starting far behind the edge at a very low angle.
This procedure allows you to splendidly ignore any angle or proportions or any figures, and restore a previous configuration in its new, thinned location.
Click to expand...
What cutting board do you use if I may ask?
 
Hz_zzzzzz said:
What cutting board do you use if I may ask?
Click to expand...
Beech and Oak, both European. The species aren't the same around the world. On synthetic I would go for a more conservative edge. That's when keeping thin behind the edge becomes even more essential.
 
Benuser said:
Beech and Oak, both European. The species aren't the same around the world. On synthetic I would go for a more conservative edge. That's when keeping thin behind the edge becomes even more essential.
Click to expand...
Make sense. When I use my maple and cherry end grain boards, I also get microchips all the time if the knife is 0.1 mm or thinner right behind the edge or if the angle is too low. Since I switched to Hasegawa soft rubber (yellow one) and hinoki, I thin my knife to <0.1 mm right behind the edge and they are mostly doing ok. Some wide bevel knives come extremely thin (like 0.05 mm) right behind the micro edge bevel and they can hold up on my hasegawa and hinoki boards.
 
cleaver 15-20
gyuto\petty 12-15

only exception was Takeda, crazy thin its about 9-10
 
daniel_il said:
only exception was Takeda, crazy thin its about 9-10
Click to expand...
I don't know that very knife, but with those figures I don't think such an edge is meant to be actually used when work involves board contact. My guess would be, the sharpener or maker was convinced no end-user would go below those 9 degrees, so he could safely put such an edge on it. One customer will change it to 10/17, another to 12/15 degrees L/R, an adventurous one, great at dealing with heavy steering may try 14/10. All, within a few strokes.
 
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