Sharpest utility knife with best edge retention?

[PaulE]

Another year and another scramble for a knife to give as a gift. My wife is very happy with the Myojin SG2 gyuto and it’s now time to upgrade her smaller 5” utility knife. I’d like to get her a “laser” without the need for sharpening as long as possible. From my research last year, I think I’ve narrowed down my choices to the following:

1. Sukenari ZDP189 Petty 160mm
2. Gihei Zuika Kengata ZDP189 Petty 120mm
3. Shibata Koutetsu SG2 Petty 150mm
4. Shibata Koutetsu SG2 Ko-Bunka 135mm

Any thoughts to guide me in the right direction? Since our first dive into the Japanese knife market was an SG2, I’ve been wanting my next purchase to be a ZDP; but I’m on the fence because it seems like the Shibata gets mentioned a lot as a must-have.

Thank you.

 

[ptolemy]

As you know, best edge retention opposite of toughness, so it'll always be a balance... I prefer to be at least 4 on each... there are very few steels that are 5+ on each

i would recommend reading this article for more info

k390 or vanadis 8 or m4 for carbon steels, or magnacut for stainless prob your best bets?

 

[M1k3]

https://protooling.com.au/products/hitohira-tp-by-takamura-150mm-petty-knife

 

[noideaatall1]

Haven't tried sukenari made in the last few years but before that it was definitely not a laser, found it quite thick behind the edge.
Also consider HAP40, should sit between SG2 and ZDP for hardness

 

[Cliff]

I have the Sukenari Hap40 165. It's not as thin as my Ashi Ginga, but it's no clunker. It holds its edge better than R2 and AS, which are my knives with closest retention levels. It is a fantastic utility knife.

 

[yummycrackers]

I can second the Takamura recommendation—very thin and nimble. Haven't had to properly sharpen it yet, though. Haven't tried Shibata's petties, but his gyutos makes for fantastic lasers, so I'd expect nothing less; possible a bit more fragile-feeling. That said, HAP40 or ZDP should still give you better edge-retention if that's your main criterion.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Those are pretty different knives. A 160 petty is going to perform quite differently than a 120 petty and they are both very different from a ko-bunka.

I recommend chasing the knife profile before steel. Filling out the forum new knife questionnaire can really help the forumites give recommendations.

My wife frequently uses a utility knife as her main knife and does a lot of board cutting. Does this describe your wife as well or is this more in-hand work?

If you have the means to sharpen it then this offering by @MSicardCutlery would be excellent. S90V is a great steel and at 63-64 it would provide some very nice retention.
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/msicardcutlery-140mm-s90v-san-mai-petty.67785/

Akifusa makes a very nice knife as well. I call them lasers, others feel they are real close but maybe not quite. SRS-15 is going to give you good retention. I believe EE still gives a 5% discount if you put that you are a KKF forum member and forum ID in the comments of your order.
https://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=93726&bc=no

SRS-13 is essentially the same steel as SRS-15 and Tsunehisa is likely made by the same folks as Akifusa. Tony @TokushuKnife offers the KKF15 discount code and is a forum member.
https://tokushuknife.com/collection...y-rosewood-handle?_pos=2&_fid=a57f948b6&_ss=c
You can also get this knife without a handle and pick one from Tony's selection. They'll mount it.
https://tokushuknife.com/collection...unihisa-srs13-migaki-135mm-petty-no-handle-10
And here's a Kurosaki in SG2 on Tony's site:
https://tokushuknife.com/collections/petty/products/yu-kurosaki-senko-sg2-ei-150mm-petty

As for Shibata's being "must haves", outside of cliquey goups there's no such thing. I'm sure there's a lot of us on the forum who've never owned a Shibata. In no way knocking his offerings at all, they are in fact quite well regarded, just saying that hype alone isn't always enough. Pick what is right for your wife.

Also, which ones does she like?

 

[SwampDonkey]

Just request one from Sicard in S90V, that's going to outperforms SG2 by a significant margin.

 

[Delat]

I kinda question the requirement for a laser in a 130mm utility knife. My wife’s main knife is a 135mm JCK Blue Clouds (an OEM version of Tsunehisa) which is not a laser. I also have a 150mm Y Kato petty which is very thin and probably fits the laser definition.

They both have their uses, but nobody is cutting sweet potatoes, butternut squash, or 3” thick carrots with a 130mm petty. Honestly I grab the thicker JCK way more often just because it feels more substantial, more able to take abuse, and most importantly it’s relatively cheap so it gets treated like a beater. Also the Kato is so thin and light it feels kinda like a toy, tbh.

If your wife truly preps meals with a 130mm petty then a relatively pricey laser makes sense, and obviously you know the intended usage best. But if it’s just for utility tasks like cutting apples, sandwiches, slicing prepared meats, etc, then the laser requirement really won’t be noticed in use and extreme thinness in a knife that small might actually be a detriment.

Anyway back on topic, I had a Shibata 180mm and it was a textbook laser so you can’t go wrong with one if that’s your preference.

 

[Dan-]

Get a Kobayashi with the red handle. My wife loves hers.

 

[Benuser]

If you're looking for an impressive edge retention, I don't understand the choice for those short knives, with a very small contact area with the board. As for lasers, I can't tell whether their geometry benefits to edge holding. I would make sure to have a very conservative final edge.

 

[mushroom]

Maybe not a popular choice, but I bought a Masakage Kiri petty and never regretted it. While I was underwhelmed by the You Kurosaki ootb sharpness, this little thing had what I desired. Have been using it for a year for small onions, garlic and so on. Uncomplicated, light and radiant look, lightweight, never sharpened.

 

[Cliff]

I agree that profile should come first. I would think that a 165-180 suji-style petty would be the most versatile and work for the broadest range, but some might prefer a Bunka. I like both. For me, Shibata is the among the very thinnest and most fragile feeling, great for soft product but not a one-and-done. The very sharpest, as in, taking the finest refinement, would be the white steels and AEBL/G3, but all of these steels will get screaming sharp. I like to have something like Munetoshi, which is hard but not crazy hard, as a utility knife, because it really can do anything. But precisely because short knives see more board contact per mm, I think retention can matter more than with longer knives.

 

[bzalforno]

I second the Takamura SG2.
‘I bought one for my daughter in law, and was so impressed that I bought a 210 for myself.
‘note; Takamura San was a pioneer in introducing SG2 to the market..
‘his knives are laser like and fIt and finish is amazing. He is the opposite of TF and his pricing is very attractive.

 

[Nemo]

Can you sharpen?

If so, edge retention should be a marginal concern for a home use knife.

 

[Cliff]

Can you sharpen?

If so, edge retention should be a marginal concern for a home use knife.

True, but we also only really need 3-4 knives. When I was typing, I left out the hyphen the first time...

 

[Nemo]

True, but we also only really need 3-4 knives. When I was typing, I left out the hyphen the first time...

Freudian slip?

 

[Cliff]

No doubt!

 

[PaulE]

Thank you for all the input and recs. I went back and listened (huh?) to the wife and turns out I didn't quite pose the right question.

We're really looking for a 100-115mm (she'd like 4.5" or 4", definitely not 5" or more) utility knife to use in addition to the Myojin gyuto she already has. She is not replacing the gyuto. The utility knife will be used on a hinoki cutting board primarily for veggies and some small meats (no bones). For reference, she has used the Myojin SG2 for a year and has not yet asked to sharpen it, but it has developed a few tiny chips.

The #1 request is to never sharpen the knife; I won't learn and getting it sharpened is just a pain I'd like to avoid as much as possible. Hence, the edge retention request. Of course, I also want her to feel it slices through anything with ease; hence the laser request. Maybe I'm wrong to use those words. I should've just said give me an idea for a knife I'll almost never have to sharpen and cuts with impressive ease with a length of 100-115mm.

Here's the questionnaire for anyone who prefers:

KNIFE TYPE 100-115mm Japanese SS
Are you right or left handed? R
Handle: Japanese handle
What length? 100-115mm
Do you require a stainless knife? Yes
What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife? 700 usd

KNIFE USE Home
Slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.
What knife, if any, are you replacing? 4.5" Calphalon, but it'll be compared to the Myojin SG2
Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? No
What cutting motions do you primarily use? Rocking slicing walking chopping
What improvements do you want from your current knife? No need to sharpen, stays sharp

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? Hinoki
Do you sharpen your own knives? NO
If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? NO
Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? NO

Thank you.

 

[dehory]

Sticking to a 100-115mm edge length is going to restrict your choices quite a bit. Your best bet given your requirements (and your budget) might be to go custom as suggested above. S90V or Magnacut seem like the obvious choices for your needs.

FWIW I have a Shibata ko-bunka, and really enjoy it as a stainless petty tall enough for board work and short enough (but not ideal) to use as a parer. I don't find its edge to be too fragile/brittle (though I'm never slamming it into the board).

 

[esoo]

If you don't want to sharpen, get a custom in REX121. Long edge retention of any steel.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

If you won't sharpen then just get cheap stuff and a pull through sharpener. Replace as needed.

 

[Nemo]

There is no such thing as a "forever sharp" knife. If you never want the knife to be sharpened, I guess a ceramic knife will give the longest intervals between replacements.

If you want a long duration between sharpenings (by someone else), look for very highly alloyed steels such as ZDP189, HAP40 or some of the other exotic steels. As previously suggested, many of the craftsmen on the forums make knives in these steels.

 

[PaulE]

I actually took a tape measure to the current 4.5" utility knife and discovered it is really 120mm. As mentioned, that size is easier to find than my original size range so I'm happy about that.

I hesitate to get a custom knife because I don't even know how to start that process and feel I'd need to know more about what I want.

I also don't want some other options (like getting a sharpener) because I'm looking for a show-piece, a nice gift, with some history.

Since I think I can't handle custom, I'll search around for a nice show-piece with good edge retention at 120mm.

 

[Cliff]

I think your best bet would be to go to Japanese Knife Imports. They will set you up and can take care of sharpening on the rare occasions you need it. Every knife eventually needs to be sharpened.

 

[Nemo]

It's worth noting that SG2/R2 and SRS15 have pretty decent edge retention. On top if that, they are fully stainless which may be important if there will be a lot of acidic food (fruit, onion, etc), especially if the knife will be left unwashed for some time afterwards.

It's also easier to find them in non custom knives.

 

[Jovidah]

Personally, if I have to do board work with it I always prefer at least 150.
Like others I'm also not really sure whether the quest for ultimate edge retention is really productive, since it'll really limit your options, while increasing cost quite a bit.
All knives will get dull. Better steel gets duller slower, but it'll still go dull eventually. Knives that don't go dull do not exist.
If your idea is to get something that'll perform best without ever sharpening it, you should focus on geometry, not on steel; something that's extremely thin behind the edge will still cut a lot of things while perfectly dull - but not everything. And it's still a bit of a fool's errand.

The knife that would probably tick most boxes is a Takamura R2 petty in 130 or 150. But that one performs best if it's given a microbevel upon arrival (because the 9 degrees per side it comes with is too ambitious), is somewhat on the delicate side so if you give it to the wrong person there's a chance they'll chip it, and like I said before... even though R2 is quite good in edge retention it'll still go dull at some point just the same.

So unless you figure out a solution to sharpen it / have someone else sharpen it I would consider this a complete waste of money.

 

[SwampDonkey]

Just build in the expectation to send whatever knife off to JKI/Carbon/District/Tokushu for a proper sharpening once or twice a year. Not a big deal, it will be out of the house for a week.

 

[Nemo]

Just build in the expectation to send whatever knife off to JKI/Carbon/District/Tokushu for a proper sharpening once or twice a year. Not a big deal, it will be out of the house for a week.

Which of course means you'll need 2 knives...

 

[drrayeye]

Thank you for all the input and recs. I went back and listened (huh?) to the wife and turns out I didn't quite pose the right question.

We're really looking for a 100-115mm (she'd like 4.5" or 4", definitely not 5" or more) utility knife to use in addition to the Myojin gyuto she already has. She is not replacing the gyuto. The utility knife will be used on a hinoki cutting board primarily for veggies and some small meats (no bones). For reference, she has used the Myojin SG2 for a year and has not yet asked to sharpen it, but it has developed a few tiny chips.

The #1 request is to never sharpen the knife; I won't learn and getting it sharpened is just a pain I'd like to avoid as much as possible. Hence, the edge retention request. Of course, I also want her to feel it slices through anything with ease; hence the laser request. Maybe I'm wrong to use those words. I should've just said give me an idea for a knife I'll almost never have to sharpen and cuts with impressive ease with a length of 100-115mm.

Here's the questionnaire for anyone who prefers:

KNIFE TYPE 100-115mm Japanese SS
Are you right or left handed? R
Handle: Japanese handle
What length? 100-115mm
Do you require a stainless knife? Yes
What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife? 700 usd

KNIFE USE Home
Slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.
What knife, if any, are you replacing? 4.5" Calphalon, but it'll be compared to the Myojin SG2
Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? No
What cutting motions do you primarily use? Rocking slicing walking chopping
What improvements do you want from your current knife? No need to sharpen, stays sharp

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? Hinoki
Do you sharpen your own knives? NO
If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? NO
Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? NO

Thank you.

I know that this is too long for your specs, but this Shun Classic utility knife has a serrated blade that you won't have to sharpen, is light, and easy to handle. I purchased a left handed version about 6 years ago that has never been sharpened and performs like new:

https://www.cutleryandmore.com/shun...-p16315?refSrc=5281&nosto=nosto-page-product1