Shirogami (White) No.1 & No.2 Questions...

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bradmacmt said:
Lots of interesting discussion here. Yes, the one W2 I had was by Wakui. I thought it was excellent.
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I can confirm. Have a Wakui white #2 in stainless clad and cuts so smooth. Also Mazaki white #2 is amazing as well. I have used both with a lot of confidence.

Edit: answers your question @SwampDonkey
 
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bradmacmt said:
I've had exactly one White no.2 knife. I didn't really have it long enough to form any definite opinion about it, though my example worked well on everything I used it on. My experience has mainly been with Blue Super, Blue no.2, VG10, SKD, and a variety of other stainless's. I've seen that Murray Carter thinks it's "the" knife steel (can't remember which White he prefers - maybe no.1?), and I've seen another poster here who doesn't think it's made for, or ideal for any knife blade.

What's your take on these two steels, and which do you prefer? All things being equal, how do you like it in relation to Blue no.2? Obviously a lot of it comes down to how the smith treats and tempers it I assume.

Thanks for your input - I'm still learning.

For the "Americans," Happy Thanksgiving :)
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Firstly, with J-knives, steel type is on the lower rung of importance in what I value in a great performing kitchen knife—choose a good maker, chances are the steel/ht is good.
That said, of the knives I have, my favorite steels in order of preference is white 1 (by a long shot, I’ve currently 5 gyutos in w1), crisp, easy to sharpen; Heiji’s spicy carbon (lively, can get sharp AF, though brittle at times); a good blue 1; a good blue 2.
The w2s I have are fine—Mazaki, Munetoshi, M. Hinoura, Y. Tanaka, etc.
 
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DitmasPork said:
Firstly, with J-knives, steel type is on the lower rung of importance in what I value in a great performing kitchen knife—choose a good maker, chances are the steel/ht is good.
That said, of the knives I have, my favorite steels in order of preference is white 1 (by a long shot, I’ve currently 5 gyutos in w1), crisp, easy to sharpen; Heiji’s spicy carbon (lively, can get sharp AF, though brittle at times); a good blue 1; a good blue 2.
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You putting AS in a caboose with the other blues? If yes, that is where we disagree in that hierarchy. I would put a well HT'ed AS above all those and by a significant margin.
 
I've had 2 Shiro Kamo (1 62-64 HRC and 1 65) and 1 Y. Kato (64 HRC) Aogami Super all were microchippy after I took the factory edge off. Not writing off AS at all and want to try more, but noted that it's the only knives I've had microchips on after putting my own edge. Just a curiosity more than anything, I'm pretty gentle on knives with an end grain board. They took a delicious toothy edge so I'll be back for different makers once I trim my collection down a bit.

Spyderco AS folder going strong though!
 
SwampDonkey said:
I've had 2 Shiro Kamo (1 62-64 HRC and 1 65) and 1 Y. Kato (64 HRC) Aogami Super all were microchippy after I took the factory edge off. Not writing off AS at all and want to try more, but noted that it's the only knives I've had microchips on after putting my own edge. Just a curiosity more than anything, I'm pretty gentle on knives with an end grain board. They took a delicious toothy edge so I'll be back for different makers once I trim my collection down a bit.

Spyderco AS folder going strong though!
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It’s always been said that on paper AS should be more brittle and chippy but I’ve never really experienced it.
Do you think your edge is pretty low angle?
 
SwampDonkey said:
I've had 2 Shiro Kamo (1 62-64 HRC and 1 65) and 1 Y. Kato (64 HRC) Aogami Super all were microchippy after I took the factory edge off. Not writing off AS at all and want to try more, but noted that it's the only knives I've had microchips on after putting my own edge.
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My experience with TF AS is the exact opposite. Super microchippy on the factory edge but after its been on the Okudo Suita its toothy very stable. In fact I don't remember seeing another chip after the initial sharpening. And my angles are very acute.
 
labor of love said:
It’s always been said that on paper AS should be more brittle and chippy but I’ve never really experienced it.
Do you think your edge is pretty low angle?
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Yes I sharpen fairly low angle, ~12 dps, but hard blue 2s from Kamo, Toyama/Wat Pro haven't had any microchips after initial sharpening. Shindo is a little softer around 62-63 HRC but same.

The only thing I can think is those AS knives were a little earlier in my journey when I was rock chopping a bit more. I never did it on anything more than herbs, garlic (no stem), and green onions but now I'm pretty much pure push cutter. 🤷🏼‍♀️

Just gotta get more knives to test I suppose.
 
Corradobrit1 said:
You putting AS in a caboose with the other blues? If yes, that is where we disagree in that hierarchy. I would put a well HT'ed AS above all those and by a significant margin.
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I've a couple AS gyutos—denka, etc.—but for one reason or another I just jive better with b1s, b2s I have.

[edit]
TBH, when I choose a knife to use, steel type is literally the last thing on my mind. I try not to over think steel—but that's just me.
 
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SwampDonkey said:
I've had 2 Shiro Kamo (1 62-64 HRC and 1 65) and 1 Y. Kato (64 HRC) Aogami Super all were microchippy after I took the factory edge off. Not writing off AS at all and want to try more, but noted that it's the only knives I've had microchips on after putting my own edge. Just a curiosity more than anything, I'm pretty gentle on knives with an end grain board. They took a delicious toothy edge so I'll be back for different makers once I trim my collection down a bit.

Spyderco AS folder going strong though!
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Weird, I had a Yu Kurosaki AS that I had no issues with and left me with a very positive impression of AS. I would assume since they're all in TKV they all use the same heat treat, but maybe not?
 
I much prefer the blue steels and especially AS over White. Anytime I have picked something up on white steel it ended up for sale here. I just think they lose toothiness for me too fast. They are easy to sharpen but I find AEB-L just as easy and holds an edge far longer. I am glad people like the steel, I always want to but it just never clicks. To be honest though I tend to move on from most all low alloy steels pretty quickly. It's probably my poor sharpening skills.:)
 
Interestingly, the last 7 knives I bought during the last year were all over the map regarding J-steel types: W1, W1, AS, W2, W2, B2, SLD.
 
I don't notice a huge difference between Mazaki W2 and Watoyama B2. I love Munetoshi and Mazaki for the balance of toughness, ease of sharpening, and retention. W2 gets bad press. That said, it doesn't get the angry, toothy quality of good AS, but B2 doesn't either.
 
Probably belongs in “Unpopular Opinions” but edge retention for a home cook that likes to sharpen is a pointless consideration. In fact I get a little annoyed when edge retention is so good that the knife rarely needs to be sharpened. I also think that what stone you sharpen and how good a sharpener you are has much more to do edge toothiness than the underlying steel. At least when comparing Blue or White steels taken to a similar hardness.

Things like "white 1 gets sharper" is a folly. Maybe it's true, but we are talking kitchen knives. The vast majority of kitchen tasks do not require a high grit edge. Can anyone in all honesty say that they notice a distinct difference in the toothiness of an edge on a Blue 2 vs. White 2 knife that were sharpened on the same stone?
 
It's true that retention is often over rated. But it is nice, even at home. No, I don't see a difference between those steels, but give me TF AS or Sukenari Hap40, and I think I could tell the difference blind.
 
Blank Blades. said:
Because it would very likely have less plate martensite. Which would lead to it having better toughness. You could still get good hardness with white 3 without potentially but with better toughness.

The thing i said about it being san mai could effect things though. Depending how things were done white 1 could by the end have the ammount of carbon, white 2 or 3 monosteel would have left. So in that specific case its harder to say which would be best.
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To this point @Blank Blades, I have two custom Mizuno honyakis. Ordered from Jun, a 240 and 270. In my first one, the 240, I ordered (demanded?) Blue 2 and I like it, but it isn't perfect. Talking with him about it when ordering the 270, he told me that unquestionably believes his White 3 honyaki offers the best overall performance in any of his knives, and said he only uses that when given the option by the client as it gets similar performance but is much more forgiving to the end user and easier to work on. My experience with his knives only corroborates that, though this I think is limited to honyaki conversations.
 
thebradleycrew said:
To this point @Blank Blades, I have two custom Mizuno honyakis. Ordered from Jun, a 240 and 270. In my first one, the 240, I ordered (demanded?) Blue 2 and I like it, but it isn't perfect. Talking with him about it when ordering the 270, he told me that unquestionably believes his White 3 honyaki offers the best overall performance in any of his knives, and said he only uses that when given the option by the client as it gets similar performance but is much more forgiving to the end user and easier to work on. My experience with his knives only corroborates that, though this I think is limited to honyaki conversations.
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Do you already have the 270 wh3? What are your impressions?
 
Don't forget 1.2562 which to my understanding is like AS. I have been reading a bit trying to find the different ones that are similar outside of Japan. In my reading I came across this
White (No. 1, 2 and 3) is a pure carbon steel. Nothing but iron, carbon, bit of Mn. Its very freaking pure, minimal amount of P, S. It can go very hard, but there is very little of carbides, so it can take extreeeeeeeeeemly fine edge, but it will not hold it very long.

Super Blue - Similar to White, but with added W, Cr (mainly for hardenability) and V. Added benefit is that now you have some hard tungsten carbides and it will edge longer then White steel, but you cant sharpen it as fine as White. (but I still think that normal user cant tell a difference is edge crispness).

I started with an Anryu Shirogami #2 bunka and petty for years. They sharpen easily, thin easy and get crazy sharp. They stay sharp for a good while just not crazy sharp for that long. I don't find them that reactive. Yes you need to clean and dry them, but I also added a nice patina and it is less of an issue. I then got Shibata Tinker Tank with the AS and that stays crazy sharp much longer. I also have a Okubo Aogami #2 and it is a nice mix between the two. They are all great steel to be honest. I do prefer for most tasks the Aogami steels, but they all have their place.

There are so many things that go into the sharp thing though. I don't know if the statement that you can't sharpen the AS as fine as the white is true it maybe though. I think all mine get pretty close to each other. Edge retention I do notice a difference though. I think the grind and thickness BTE play a bit of a roll in all this too. Along with the talents of the smith involved.
 
 
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SwampDonkey said:
I've been very curious about Wakui's shirogami #2. Only tried his V2, has anyone tried both and can compare?
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IF Kochi=Wakui then I’ve tried both. If not then I’m just comparing kochi v2 and wakui wh2.

Only difference I can recall is that V2 was easier to touch up and got a burr going quicker. Everything else seemed the same to me.
 
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