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Tranmaster said:
I am growing increasingly impressed with Japanese Chefs Knifes. As I learn more about individual Japanese blacksmiths I realize what this outfit has done. it is basically a store for the Seki blacksmiths. Japanese Chef's Knife not only sells their knives but you can contact them directly if you want a custom knife made, all handled through Japanese Chefs Knifes. I have a number of very nice Paudin Japanese-style pattern welded Chinese knives. Very sharp and beautiful to look at. I am starting to look at them like they are counterfeits. I especially have grown to resent their attributes to "Japanese heritage". I am starting to replace them with the real deal.
Click to expand...
Can you elaborate on the “Japanese heritage” part in relation to the Chinese knives that you own? Would love to see a picture too if possible
 
nhb22 said:
Can you elaborate on the “Japanese heritage” part in relation to the Chinese knives that you own? Would love to see a picture too if possible
Click to expand...
Yes indeed.

I have studied the history of edged weapons for decades the history of a knife, its heritage, and traditions are very interesting to me. Here are two examples. The Paudin knives do not stress a Japanese heritage, so much as an inspiration. They do put forward the long heritage of where they are made in China. The problem is if you look into the centuries-long heritage it goes back to 1988. With this said the Paudin Knifes are very good. The one that really bothers me is Mitsumoto Sakari. I have a wonderful Santoku of this brand. But if you look closely at its branding there is nothing there that tells you where is it from. What I have learned it to be suspicious of anything sold on Amazon. Thus my increasing loyalty to Japanese Chef Knife.

This from WARNING: These Are the Chinese Knife Brands Out to Fool You on Amazon.com (Tricking You Into Thinking You Are Buying a Japanese Knife) - Oishii Desu "It's Delicious"
“MITSUMOTO SAKARI brand is headquartered in Yokohama, Kanagawa, Japan. And we have several factories in East Asian countries. Please rest assured that the quality of each of our products is strictly audited, so please buy with confidence.” By Mitsumoto Sakari. Mitsumoto Sakari said it themselves that their products are made in China “ And we have several factories in East Asian countries.” aka Ghina.
The company name:
shen zhen shi san ben sheng mao yi you xian gongsi

Now check out Mistsumoto Sakari store front on Amazon. They only sell through Amazon in the States.

My Mitsumoto Sakari Suntoku, as I have said a wonderful knife.

IMG_8470.jpeg


IMG_8472.jpeg


Here is the Paudin Suntoku, this is of their Plume line, feather patterned welding. This too is a really good knife, I only use it on my Shun cutting board. To Paudins credit you can purchase directly from their website and they have online-only sales. When you order a knife from their site it is mailed directly from China.

IMG_8474.jpeg


IMG_8476.jpeg


One thing about the Paudin Santoku. when arrived from China I checked it out before putting it in my knife case I found that it must have missed part of its final sharpening because it had a burr on one side of the edge. I used my honing steel to fix it but for such a quality knife it seemed odd.
 
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Tranmaster said:
Yes indeed.

I have studied the history of edged weapons for decades the history of a knife, its heritage, and traditions are very interesting to me. Here are two examples. The Paudin knives do not stress a Japanese heritage, so much as an inspiration. They do put forward the long heritage of where they are made in China. The problem is if you look into the centuries-long heritage it goes back to 1988. With this said the Paudin Knifes are very good. The one that really bothers me is Mitsumoto Sakari. I have a wonderful Santoku of this brand. But if you look closely at its branding there is nothing there that tells you where is it from. What I have learned it to be suspicious of anything sold on Amazon. Thus my increasing loyalty to Japanese Chef Knife.

This from WARNING: These Are the Chinese Knife Brands Out to Fool You on Amazon.com (Tricking You Into Thinking You Are Buying a Japanese Knife) - Oishii Desu "It's Delicious"
“MITSUMOTO SAKARI brand is headquartered in Yokohama, Kanagawa, Japan. And we have several factories in East Asian countries. Please rest assured that the quality of each of our products is strictly audited, so please buy with confidence.” By Mitsumoto Sakari. Mitsumoto Sakari said it themselves that their products are made in China “ And we have several factories in East Asian countries.” aka Ghina.
The company name:
shen zhen shi san ben sheng mao yi you xian gongsi

Now check out Mistsumoto Sakari store front on Amazon. They only sell through Amazon in the States.

My Mitsumoto Sakari Suntoku, as I have said a wonderful knife.

View attachment 284523

View attachment 284525

Here is the Paudin Suntoku, this is of their Plume line, feather patterned welding. This too is a really good knife, I only use it on my Shun cutting board. To Paudins credit you can purchase directly from their website and they have online-only sales. When you order a knife from their site it is mailed directly from China.

View attachment 284526

View attachment 284527

One thing about the Paudin Santoku. when arrived from China I checked it out before putting it in my knife case I found that it must have missed part of its final sharpening because it had a burr on one side of the edge. I used my honing steel to fix it but for such a quality knife it seemed odd.
Click to expand...
Thank you. Is it fair to say you are talking about modern manufacturing and branding practices rather than history / design origins of the Japanese kitchen knives that are on the market today? For example, I understand the traditional Japanese kitchen knives (the design, not the forging methodology) came largely from traditional Chinese double bevel kitchen knives. It was modified and adopted by the Japanese knife makers for the specific needs in making Japanese traditional cuisine. The modern Japanese kitchen knives are mainly inspired by the western kitchen knives which as the French chef knife. Obviously, I’m probably oversimplifying things here. Are there also design connections between Japanese kitchen knives and weapons?
 
Tranmaster said:
Yes indeed.

I have studied the history of edged weapons for decades the history of a knife, its heritage, and traditions are very interesting to me. Here are two examples. The Paudin knives do not stress a Japanese heritage, so much as an inspiration. They do put forward the long heritage of where they are made in China. The problem is if you look into the centuries-long heritage it goes back to 1988. With this said the Paudin Knifes are very good. The one that really bothers me is Mitsumoto Sakari. I have a wonderful Santoku of this brand. But if you look closely at its branding there is nothing there that tells you where is it from. What I have learned it to be suspicious of anything sold on Amazon. Thus my increasing loyalty to Japanese Chef Knife.

This from WARNING: These Are the Chinese Knife Brands Out to Fool You on Amazon.com (Tricking You Into Thinking You Are Buying a Japanese Knife) - Oishii Desu "It's Delicious"
“MITSUMOTO SAKARI brand is headquartered in Yokohama, Kanagawa, Japan. And we have several factories in East Asian countries. Please rest assured that the quality of each of our products is strictly audited, so please buy with confidence.” By Mitsumoto Sakari. Mitsumoto Sakari said it themselves that their products are made in China “ And we have several factories in East Asian countries.” aka Ghina.
The company name:
shen zhen shi san ben sheng mao yi you xian gongsi

Now check out Mistsumoto Sakari store front on Amazon. They only sell through Amazon in the States.

My Mitsumoto Sakari Suntoku, as I have said a wonderful knife.

View attachment 284523

View attachment 284525

Here is the Paudin Suntoku, this is of their Plume line, feather patterned welding. This too is a really good knife, I only use it on my Shun cutting board. To Paudins credit you can purchase directly from their website and they have online-only sales. When you order a knife from their site it is mailed directly from China.

View attachment 284526

View attachment 284527

One thing about the Paudin Santoku. when arrived from China I checked it out before putting it in my knife case I found that it must have missed part of its final sharpening because it had a burr on one side of the edge. I used my honing steel to fix it but for such a quality knife it seemed odd.
Click to expand...

Those look to be pretty standard Chinese, let's call them, high volume offerings. You can't be sure of the steel no matter what is stamped on them and what is advertised as "Damascus" is often just a laser surface treatment.

These kinds of things in their ads are a huge red flag:

Cheap Chinese.png


JCK is for sure a good vendor and there are many, many others. Have a look here:

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/who-do-you-buy-from.52523/
We can help you get into some knives that will blow away those above without spending a lot of money.
 
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HumbleHomeCook said:
Those look to be pretty standard Chinese, let's call them, high volume offerings. You can't be sure of the steel no matter what is stamped on them and what is advertised as "Damascus" is often just a laser surface treatment.

These kinds of things in their ads is a huge red flag.

View attachment 284538

JCK is for sure a good vendor and there are many, many others. Have a look here:

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/who-do-you-buy-from.52523/
We can help you get into some knives that will blow those above away without spending a lot of money.
Click to expand...
I am already going down this road. I have my head in two different schools of cutlery, German from the German Butcher side of the Family and From my love of Japanese Anime such as Food Wars!, Japanese Iron Chef, and now all of the Japanese street food YouTube shows.

Here is my start.

MesserMiester is a California-based company whose knives are made in Germany and Portugal. Its Japanese knives are made in Seki Japan.
I had to go to Australia to get this Usuba, it is not sold in the States. The first time I used it I was a total revelation its heavy single bevel edge seemed to do all of the work on a head of cabbage.

IMG_8486.jpeg


IMG_8488.jpeg


Here is the 2nd edition. This Guyto from Japanese Chefs Knife. One of their house brand knives. Yes, there is a gigantic difference between a 2.2mm blade, and an 8mm on my Zwilling German Chef's knife. You will notice from the handles my German cutlery side is still very influential.


IMG_8455.jpeg
 
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Here is what I have coming from JCK. JCK Natures Blue Moon series Nakiri

This is from its description.
"The core of the blades is made from Hitachi Blue Steel No.2 Japanese high carbon steel, which is sandwiched between soft stainless steel for improved corrosion resistance, and thus reduced maintenance. Blue Moon Knife is hand-ground and sharpened, and has very good overall fit and finish". Its name is inspired by hammer marks that look like moon craters.



Screenshot 2023-11-26 at 12.31.38.png
 
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What really ruined me for the Chinese-made knives is seeing the huge factory they were made in. Hand polishing har-de-har-har. one underpaid worker loading, by hand, 50 knives in an automated polishing machine. All of my German Wüsthof knives are hand-finished one at a time.
 
If anyone if wondering about my Avatar. It is a 1943 back cover of the National Geographic magazine. all during the war Hormel posted ad's for Spam because it was not rationed so they featured ways to prepare it. I have made all of them, all very good. But the reason for it here is Spam is my benchmark for slicing, how well a blade does a slice of Spam is my benchmark of sharpness. Did I mention I love spam? :p
 
I cannot be entirely PO'ed at Mitsumoto Sakari. They did make my emergency steak knife. This is Mitsumoto Sakari's take on a Japanese Pendant or neck knife. In 19th century America this little knife would have been called a "plug' knife, used to cut a chunk of chewing tobacco out of a "plug". It has sandalwood inserts. and a Damascus V10 blade. I could not resist the purchase.

IMG_8482.jpeg


IMG_8484.jpeg
 
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Two of the other arrivals from JNS :) I really wanted to try out the Wakui workhorse and the Kawachi so I had to do it lol.
First the Wakui:
IoxiXf5.jpg

ZKeQb12.jpg

I grabbed a 210 and it has a really solid feel in hand. Fit and finish is amazing, would definitely pick this up in a larger size down the road.

The Kawachi:
BSWpvEc.jpg

A9fEucF.jpg


This one is a 240. Has a great fit and finish as well with a very nice balance. It also has a nice distal taper. Looking forward to using this in my regular rotation.

And finally a family shot of the recent arrivals from JNS :)
m9uc659.jpg
 
Juna said:
Two of the other arrivals from JNS :) I really wanted to try out the Wakui workhorse and the Kawachi so I had to do it lol.
First the Wakui:
IoxiXf5.jpg

ZKeQb12.jpg

I grabbed a 210 and it has a really solid feel in hand. Fit and finish is amazing, would definitely pick this up in a larger size down the road.

The Kawachi:
BSWpvEc.jpg

A9fEucF.jpg


This one is a 240. Has a great fit and finish as well with a very nice balance. It also has a nice distal taper. Looking forward to using this in my regular rotation.

And finally a family shot of the recent arrivals from JNS :)
m9uc659.jpg
Click to expand...
Awesome blades! Congrats! How do these three compare cutting performance wise?
 
Genghis_F said:
Bumped my head and got some brain damage…next thing I know, I’ve been brainwashed by the Denka crowd…picked up from a member here
F/f is average, not atrocious
View attachment 283411Chopped some cabbage and cut cone carrots so far. Feels solid but not special…cue torches and pitchforks…gonna have to do a few meals
Click to expand...
Is this a 210 or 240?
 
Some cleavers I got over the past few months but never posted

Vintage Sakai cleaver 220x110 mm, unknown carbon steel

I believe the seller found it NOS in an old warehouse. No makers mark of any kind. Very nice taper down the spine and a tapered tang which I’ve never seen on these types of cleavers. Better grind than my Kono FM blue 2 cleaver OOTB, but terrible sandblasted finish that needed to be worn down before the knife could be used. Typically, these are white 2, but the steel isnt quite as nice to sharpen and is more difficult to deburr. It does end up with a toothier edge and better retention than my other Sakai white 2 cleavers but doesn’t feel like blue 2 either. IDK, maybe it’s the HT.
1701102020600.jpeg

1701102041544.jpeg

1701102063731.jpeg



“Sadamichi” Aogami 220x110 mm chuka bocho

Made by a smith near Gunma. Don’t know much about him, but he makes a lot of agricultural tools. Thick tang and spine at the handle with good distal taper. Very wabi sabi, crude grind, but cuts ok OOTB. I tried to regrind it myself, but the core steel did not want to abrade. I took it to District Cutlery and they shaved over 10 grams off the bevels. The smith had a little blurb on his page that mentioned he emphasizes hardness in the HT of his blue steel and you can feel it pretty easily. Glassy would be an understatement, it absolutely skates around on the stones. In my estimation, harder than Watoyama or Okubo, but the trade off being it’s more difficult to get as sharp as those two. But once you get an edge you like on it, it will hold it for a LONG time.
1701102271142.jpeg




Vintage Masakane Carbon cleaver 210x80 mm

Picked this up as more of a collectible, it's maybe over 50 years old and I've never seen a cleaver from Masakane before, but it turns out it's a great home sized cleaver. The previous owner(s) did a great job maintaining a very thin geometry and keeping the profile intact. Very deep patina all over, but surprisingly, no actual rust.
1701101883570.jpeg



Yuraku (Ashi Hamono OEM) 225x110 mm AEB-L #6 cleaver

Picked up from a random Japanese auction, profile was a little too flat, but good grind and steel. Not as nice as the Gesshin Ashi cleavers in terms of F&F, but not bad either and I really like the little AEB-L sticker. The steel lacks a little of the bite of carbon and feels a little less crisp on the stones, but gets very, very keen and sticky. Glides through everything.
1701102472809.jpeg

1701102723581.jpeg


Sugimoto #7 OMS 220x110 mm Chinese cleaver

Very thin grind, thinnest OOTB of any Sugimoto I’ve had, some wabi-sabi near the tip, but the price was good for one of these so I don’t mind. Still comparing to my other Sugimotos to see if the steel is any different.
1701102125567.jpeg



Kono Blue 2 FM 225x110mm chuka bocho

I got the chance to try this knife out a few months ago and fell in love so when the owner offered to sell it to me, I jumped at the chance. Best all around vegetable cleaver I've used. I've pushed it a little thinner BTE than the stock grind and it has the perfect balance of ease of sharpening, edge taking and edge retention. I think this is the only Konosuke I’ve chased after. I don't know why they don't make more of these because they're so good.
1701101954446.jpeg
1701101982367.jpeg
 
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kpham12 said:
Some cleavers I got over the past few months but never posted

Vintage Sakai cleaver 220x110 mm, unknown carbon steel

I believe the seller found it NOS in an old warehouse. No makers mark of any kind. Very nice taper down the spine and a tapered tang which I’ve never seen on these types of cleavers. Better grind than my Kono FM blue 2 cleaver OOTB, but terrible sandblasted finish that needed to be worn down before the knife could be used. Typically, these are white 2, but the steel isnt quite as nice to sharpen and is more difficult to deburr. It does end up with a toothier edge and better retention than my other Sakai white 2 cleavers but doesn’t feel like blue 2 either. IDK, maybe it’s the HT.
View attachment 284720
View attachment 284721
View attachment 284722


“Sadamichi” Aogami 220x110 mm chuka bocho

Made by a smith near Gunma. Don’t know much about him, but he makes a lot of agricultural tools. Thick tang and spine at the handle with good distal taper. Very wabi sabi, crude grind, but cuts ok OOTB. I tried to regrind it myself, but the core steel did not want to abrade. I took it to District Cutlery and they shaved over 10 grams off the bevels. The smith had a little blurb on his page that mentioned he emphasizes hardness in the HT of his blue steel and you can feel it pretty easily. Glassy would be an understatement, it absolutely skates around on the stones. In my estimation, harder than Watoyama or Okubo, but the trade off being it’s more difficult to get as sharp as those two. But once you get an edge you like on it, it will hold it for a LONG time.
View attachment 284726



Vintage Masakane Carbon cleaver 210x80 mm

Picked this up as more of a collectible, it's maybe over 50 years old and I've never seen a cleaver from Masakane before, but it turns out it's a great home sized cleaver. The previous owner(s) did a great job maintaining a very thin geometry and keeping the profile intact. Very deep patina all over, but surprisingly, no actual rust.
View attachment 284715


Yuraku (Ashi Hamono OEM) 225x110 mm AEB-L #6 cleaver

Picked up from a random Japanese auction, profile was a little too flat, but good grind and steel. Not as nice as the Gesshin Ashi cleavers in terms of F&F, but not bad either and I really like the little AEB-L sticker. The steel lacks a little of the bite of carbon and feels a little less crisp on the stones, but gets very, very keen and sticky. Glides through everything.
View attachment 284728
View attachment 284731

Sugimoto #7 OMS 220x110 mm Chinese cleaver

Very thin grind, thinnest OOTB of any Sugimoto I’ve had, some wabi-sabi near the tip, but the price was good for one of these so I don’t mind. Still comparing to my other Sugimotos to see if the steel is any different.
View attachment 284723


Kono Blue 2 FM 225x110mm chuka bocho

I got the chance to try this knife out a few months ago and fell in love so when the owner offered to sell it to me, I jumped at the chance. Best all around vegetable cleaver I've used. I've pushed it a little thinner BTE than the stock grind and it has the perfect balance of ease of sharpening, edge taking and edge retention. I think this is the only Konosuke I’ve chased after. I don't know why they don't make more of these because they're so good.
View attachment 284718View attachment 284719
Click to expand...

Um, and just where are the cutting videos? Hmmmm...???
 
BillHanna said:
Wife: Six is too many.

Me: no. It isn’t. (Just you wait and see.)
Click to expand...
I hide them all over the place. A couple here, a couple there, always one within reach.

HumbleHomeCook said:
Um, and just where are the cutting videos? Hmmmm...???
Click to expand...
Forthcoming. I just had to get a couple of them in "cutting video" shape first.
 
kpham12 said:
Some cleavers I got over the past few months but never posted

Vintage Sakai cleaver 220x110 mm, unknown carbon steel

I believe the seller found it NOS in an old warehouse. No makers mark of any kind. Very nice taper down the spine and a tapered tang which I’ve never seen on these types of cleavers. Better grind than my Kono FM blue 2 cleaver OOTB, but terrible sandblasted finish that needed to be worn down before the knife could be used. Typically, these are white 2, but the steel isnt quite as nice to sharpen and is more difficult to deburr. It does end up with a toothier edge and better retention than my other Sakai white 2 cleavers but doesn’t feel like blue 2 either. IDK, maybe it’s the HT.
View attachment 284720
View attachment 284721
View attachment 284722


“Sadamichi” Aogami 220x110 mm chuka bocho

Made by a smith near Gunma. Don’t know much about him, but he makes a lot of agricultural tools. Thick tang and spine at the handle with good distal taper. Very wabi sabi, crude grind, but cuts ok OOTB. I tried to regrind it myself, but the core steel did not want to abrade. I took it to District Cutlery and they shaved over 10 grams off the bevels. The smith had a little blurb on his page that mentioned he emphasizes hardness in the HT of his blue steel and you can feel it pretty easily. Glassy would be an understatement, it absolutely skates around on the stones. In my estimation, harder than Watoyama or Okubo, but the trade off being it’s more difficult to get as sharp as those two. But once you get an edge you like on it, it will hold it for a LONG time.
View attachment 284726



Vintage Masakane Carbon cleaver 210x80 mm

Picked this up as more of a collectible, it's maybe over 50 years old and I've never seen a cleaver from Masakane before, but it turns out it's a great home sized cleaver. The previous owner(s) did a great job maintaining a very thin geometry and keeping the profile intact. Very deep patina all over, but surprisingly, no actual rust.
View attachment 284715


Yuraku (Ashi Hamono OEM) 225x110 mm AEB-L #6 cleaver

Picked up from a random Japanese auction, profile was a little too flat, but good grind and steel. Not as nice as the Gesshin Ashi cleavers in terms of F&F, but not bad either and I really like the little AEB-L sticker. The steel lacks a little of the bite of carbon and feels a little less crisp on the stones, but gets very, very keen and sticky. Glides through everything.
View attachment 284728
View attachment 284731

Sugimoto #7 OMS 220x110 mm Chinese cleaver

Very thin grind, thinnest OOTB of any Sugimoto I’ve had, some wabi-sabi near the tip, but the price was good for one of these so I don’t mind. Still comparing to my other Sugimotos to see if the steel is any different.
View attachment 284723


Kono Blue 2 FM 225x110mm chuka bocho

I got the chance to try this knife out a few months ago and fell in love so when the owner offered to sell it to me, I jumped at the chance. Best all around vegetable cleaver I've used. I've pushed it a little thinner BTE than the stock grind and it has the perfect balance of ease of sharpening, edge taking and edge retention. I think this is the only Konosuke I’ve chased after. I don't know why they don't make more of these because they're so good.
View attachment 284718View attachment 284719
Click to expand...
Nice collection!

I've never seen a Masakane cleaver either, really like the measurements on this one.

The Yuraku cleaver is also interesting. It's super hard to find an Ashi cleaver these days...
 
The very 1st Chinese cleaver I owned was a real cheapie but had really good steel. It was 3 Rams brand I purchased it from the Wok Shop in San Fransisco back in the 1980s. I had it for years, and finally, the handle fell off. I can still get this Cleaver from The Wok Shop. Even though I have better cleavers I might get one just for the memories it would bring back.

Here is a picture of one from eBay. They are trying to get $35 bucks for this cleaver. 🤣 The Wok Shop has new ones for $15.95

Screenshot 2023-11-27 at 11.27.43.png



The Wok Shop

Screenshot 2023-11-27 at 11.43.11.png
 
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