Starter set for a Chef going to culinary school

[Transmaster]

I had a old friend call to tell me one of his grand daughters is going to culinary school. He told me he was going to gift her a set of knives to take with her. He was going to get her Japanese type blades. I dissuaded him of this idea. From first hand experience I know that Japanese knives are a world unto themselves and are really not the way to go to start out. The term "beater" which is sometimes used in an condensating context when referring to Western style knives is exactly what a chef in training needs. I went from German knives to Japanese folded blade designs not knowing that you cannot use them the same was as my Zwilling and Wüsthof knives. I learned this when I was cutting a steak for Fajitas. I have always sliced, tilted the blade to my right and slid it on the cutting board to separate the slices. The Padon Petty knife I was using, (a welded Damascus) had small chips in the edge from this sliding motion. I have since learned, in part thanks to this forum, about the care and use of Japanese knives. I still like German style knives I have sort of moved from Zwilling to Wüthof as my go to choice. I showed my friend the starter sets that Wüthof has. I can vouch for each of the choices in these sets as I actually have them. These are knives a chef in training can depend on to do the job. Later with more experience a starting chef can move to Japanese style knives. I wished I had know this at the beginning. The fancy welded Damascus Padon knives I have I cannot stand, they are all sitting in one of my knife cases. I don't even want to give them away because of their super hard brittle edges. The knives I have purchased from Japanese Chef Knives, 7 so far, has shown me just how good a quality Japanese knife is.

 

[stringer]

I had a old friend call to tell me one of his grand daughters is going to culinary school. He told me he was going to gift her a set of knives to take with her. He was going to get her Japanese type blades. I dissuaded him of this idea. From first hand experience I know that Japanese knives are a world unto themselves and are really not the way to go to start out. The term "beater" which is sometimes used in an condensating context when referring to Western style knives is exactly what a chef in training needs. I went from German knives to Japanese folded blade designs not knowing that you cannot use them the same was as my Zwilling and Wüsthof knives. I learned this when I was cutting a steak for Fajitas. I have always sliced, tilted the blade to my right and slid it on the cutting board to separate the slices. The Padon Petty knife I was using, (a welded Damascus) had small chips in the edge from this sliding motion. I have since learned, in part thanks to this forum, about the care and use of Japanese knives. I still like German style knives I have sort of moved from Zwilling to Wüthof as my go to choice. I showed my friend the starter sets that Wüthof has. I can vouch for each of the choices in these sets as I actually have them. These are knives a chef in training can depend on to do the job. Later with more experience a starting chef can move to Japanese style knives. I wished I had know this at the beginning. The fancy welded Damascus Padon knives I have I cannot stand, they are all sitting in one of my knife cases. I don't even want to give them away because of their super hard brittle edges. The knives I have purchased from Japanese Chef Knives, 7 so far, has shown me just how good a quality Japanese knife is.

I disagree 50%. I think you need both. You are better suited to learn general technique both for cutting and sharpening on a nice factory Japanese gyuto. Everything else (bread, boning, slicer, filet, paring, petty, etc.) the cheap ubiquitous Mercer/Vic kits covers the bases well. I would suggest getting one nice factory gyuto in the 225-240 range and a fine ceramic honing rod. Other than that, the peelers, zesters, channelers, micro-planers, etc that come in those kits suck. You could suggest a nice micro-plane grater or zester.

 

[Transmaster]

I was going to mention my Gyuto's. My favorite is my JCK Original Kagayaki CarboNext 180mm Gyuto it is made of solid CarboNext special high carbon tool steel that is hardened to HRc. 59-61. If I had it to do again I would have purchased the 240mm version. But I added a 240mm JCK Natures Gekko Series Gyuto. The CarboNext would be an excellent choice for a beginning chef with it you can have your cake and eat it too. My biggest wish is I would have stopped by a forum like this at the beginning. I know German but I didn't know Japanese.

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[YumYumSauce]

Nothing wrong with most Germans
I'd recommend mac's . Great affordable, stainless, unfussy knives. I would have been very happy with them when I was going to culinary school and even now.

 

[M1k3]

Just starting out, I wouldn't shy away from German/Western brands AND Japanese knives. They excel at different things.

German/Western brands for heavy duty, rougher type stuff. Bone-in meats and fish, "Oh ****! It's frozen" moments, just beating on some lemongrass, etc.

Japanese brands for other things.

For the other smaller things, I'd definitely recommend Micro-plane, Benriner and Kuhn brands that are good and aren't expensive (comparatively speaking). Beyond that, if you have a restaurant supply store nearby, I'd recommend checking them out. They usually carry a wide variety of no frills, but well made, utensils and other tools.

 

[Transmaster]

I have always had the crazy vision of a barbarian German Chef, fighting off bandits with his German chef's knife and once that is done he wipes off the blade and goes back to cooking.

 

[bradmacmt]

and a fine ceramic honing rod.

Stringer, which rod would you recommend?

 

[Transmaster]

Stringer, which rod would you recommend?

I would go for Kyocera

 

[NakiridAndAfraid]

I attended the California Culinary Academy in the mid1990's. I was in the second class to be issued a kit ofWüsthof Classics. The previous classes had been issues F. Dick kits. New students were having their gear stolen right and left by the upperclassmen (and women). I went and borrowed an engraver and put my name on all my blades. Nobody stole mine!
I would suggest, if knives of any quality are going to be gifted, that they be engraved with your friend's granddaughter's name or at least initials. Wouldn't want to make it easy for thieves.

 

[stringer]

Stringer, which rod would you recommend?

I use a 12" white Mac

 

[bradmacmt]

12" white Mac

I see it's no longer available except in 8.5" - Mac has gone a different direction with this: https://www.macknife.com/collection...black-ceramic-honing-rod-with-grooves-srb-104

Question - is it appropriate to use a ceramic rod with knife steels like Blue no 2?

 

[aporigine]

I use a 12" white Mac

that’s a big Mac!

 

[Qapla']

I had a old friend call to tell me one of his grand daughters is going to culinary school. He told me he was going to gift her a set of knives to take with her.

Is she righty?

The Padon Petty knife I was using, (a welded Damascus) had small chips in the edge from this sliding motion. I have since learned, in part thanks to this forum, about the care and use of Japanese knives.

Never heard of Padon. Do you know who makes them? It doesn't sound like a Japanese name.

 

[aporigine]

Is she righty?


Never heard of Padon. Do you know who makes them? It doesn't sound like a Japanese name.

Probably Paudin. Chinese VG10.

 

[Qapla']

Probably Paudin. Chinese VG10.

Then I have no idea why he labeled those "Japanese" knives.

 

[Transmaster]

Is she righty?


Never heard of Padon. Do you know who makes them? It doesn't sound like a Japanese name.

Aborigine corrected my spelling it is Paudin, and they are Chinese. Paudin has this whole mythos of the area in China where they are made having a knife making history going back centuries. Which I found out later was a whole CCP invention. Then I saw the factory were they are made, along with God only knows what else totally automated. The Santoku I got didn't even have the edge finished it still had a huge burr on one side. The Paudin website conceals their Chinese origin in the fine print. I found out about it from a website were a person was outing fake Japanese knife brands.

Then I have no idea why he labeled those "Japanese" knives.

I should have said Japanese style knives. Part of the reason why I steered my old friend away from Japanese style knives was because of all of the fakery out there, at least with Wüsthof you know what you are getting. I am sure my German Butcher uncles must have used Wüsthof they said their knives were all German. I wonder if any of those knives are still floating around in Scottsbluff.

 

[Transmaster]

It is ironic that the really cheap Chinese cleavers from China are very good. Their only shortcoming is their crude handles which if necessary can be replaced.

 

[aporigine]

Aborigine corrected my spelling it is Paudin, and they are Chinese. Paudin has this whole mythos of the area in China where they are made having a knife making history going back centuries. Which I found out later was a whole CCP invention. Then I saw the factory were they are made, along with God only knows what else totally automated. The Santoku I got didn't even have the edge finished it still had a huge burr on one side. The Paudin website conceals their Chinese origin in the fine print. I found out about it from a website were a person was outing fake Japanese knife brands.




I should have said Japanese style knives. Part of the reason why I steered my old friend away from Japanese style knives was because of all of the fakery out there, at least with Wüsthof you know what you are getting. I am sure my German Butcher uncles must have used Wüsthof they said their knives were all German. I wonder if any of those knives are still floating around in Scottsbluff.

VG10 is notorious for its chippiness if not heat-treated just right. Gave it a bit of a bad rap as a blade steel. (I don’t remember clearly, but iirc ZKramer andor Shun tended to chip, especially under spirited use.) Perhaps someone who knows more can mention Japanese lines whose VG10 excels.

Several Japanese smiths (Y. Tanaka comes to mind) make gracile hard blades in a given steel that are still quite tough. Under hard pro use (excluding horseplay with frozen foods or steel cans!) they don’t often chip, but their edge retention is good but not sorcery.

The quality space has many dimensions, frustrating efforts to formulate useful rules of thumb about the easier things to quantify — like steel type, measured hardness, blade grind. So we end up with experienced users saying “smith A’s SLD seems both harder and tougher than smith B’s” and other paradoxes of knife behavior. Combine that with pro users working under very diverse conditions and having their own styles and preferences of what knife works for them, and the somewhat dazzling diversity of what are generally regarded top-tier cutlerygains a bit of perspective.

Even so, specialty cutting tasks, notably in Japan, have crystallized certain knife types whose geometry is fairly uniform. The yanagiba and usuba come to mind. More general-purpose knives e.g. gyuto and petty are a rainbow of design/execution.

 

[Rangen]

Perhaps someone who knows more can mention Japanese lines whose VG10 excels.

Hattori, from personal experience, and Takamura, almost certainly, by reputation, though I can't testify personally because my Takamuras are all SG2. Still, Takamuras are so low-angle that you'd think if they had a chipping problem, it would be widely known by now.

My Hattori is confounding because it is the only VG10 I've ever had that is actually fun to sharpen on non-diamond stones.

 

[service.94107]

Before ALL: what is the budget?

Without nailing at a given budget, discussion cannot be very practical.

What follows below is my impratical view point. Don't hesitate making fun of me if you find anything drole. LoL

The key for me is what kind of cuisine the lady is to start.

Western cuisine, generally speaking French/Italian based style?
A french sabatier carbon set of chef + paring + slicer is enough for a looong period. Additional mendoline or peelers or food processor, etc. are always good, which applies for other options below. Deboning set is essential for a pro-cook, but it is of less importance here: when the lady needs a deboning set for meat and fish, she is probably already good enough to choose for herself.

Asian cuisine, more japanese way?
A white paper gyuto/bunka + Deba + yanagi + paring would be good. Good stones are of crucial importance for single-bevel knives though. Shapton glass can save a lot of lives.

Rest of Asian, say Chinese/Korean?
a Rectangle, any slicer: western/suji/yanagi/shaoyadao, and paring, would be good for a starter set for a looong time. a boning cleaver is also good if necessary.

My entry set was quite large, thanks to my uncles that had been in the industry for years:
3 cleavers, piandao(thin veggie chopper), wenwu(versatile), and zhan'gu(bone chopper)
1 gyuto 210
1 deba 180
1 yanagi 270
2 parings 90 and 135mm
a set of lancet for food carving and sculpting, in view of decos

I have to say that it is enough for me for the rest of my life as I have quitted the resto-industry and am now home cook for family and friends

 

[Transmaster]

Here is Zwillings Chef's starter set. I have all of these. The 5" serrated utility knife is an absolute joy. I prefer my Japanese Gyuto's over the 8" Zwilling Chef's knife because of the Gyuto's lighter weight and thinness. The paring knife does the job.

Wüsthof's 2 piece starter set. I like the 8" chefs knife better that the Zwilling and the paring knife is as good as any of my Japanese blades. I would add Wüthof's 5' in serrated utility knife to this set. Again the 8" chef's is a heavy duty blade but is thinner and lighter than the Zwilling, but I still the prefer my Gyutos.

Both sets come in for a cost of about $300 bucks.

I would add this knife to the Wüsthof set.

 

[Benuser]

For someone entering culinary school I would suggest a very boring yo-gyuto. As it has to be a stainless, and one that's usable straight out the box, think about a Hattori FH. It's with regret I've seen the Misonos coming these days very thick behind the edge. Otherwise a 440 were an interesting option. I guess Korin can perform the thinning.

 

[Jovidah]

Stuff like Wüsthof and Zwilling is great to have 1 big one as a kitchen axe to do stuff like cutting lobsters, but an entry level J-knife in some forgivable steel like AUS-8 or whatever semi-stainless magic they make the Carbonext or Kanehide TK out of is already such a massive step up in performance that it's worth having both.
But especially Wüsthof is way too overpriced to buy the whole set if you're paying full price. Maybe they were once good in the pre-CNC days but these days they don't really offer anything in performance over a cheap Arcos or Victorinox apart from maybe a bit more resilience when doing things you shouldn't be doing with a knife...
But like stringer said cheap western brands are great for filling out all the niche roles, and probably more suitable when you're being taught western techniques. It's probably also better to stand out in class with the quality of your technique than just the flashyness of your knives.

 

[Transmaster]

Wüsthof has frequent sales. Just get on their mailing list. As much as I like the Ikon series there is no way I am going to spend what they are asking from some of the knives in this series I love their handles but not that much. Here is an example $300 bucks. Beautiful and I love the handle but......unless it goes on sale, no.

 

[AT5760]

Not sure if you are looking for recommendations for her or not, but there's no way that I'd buy a Wusthof or Henckels set again if I were starting from scratch. Even if I wanted Western vs. Japanese style knives I would still go with other brands that provide better value and I wouldn't buy a set. There was a cool thread of what bundles that you would put together for under $300 or $400 that would be worth looking at.

 

[Transmaster]

As I have said elsewhere My heritage growing up was My German butchers and the knives they used. It wasn't until later I started to get into Japanese knives. But I still like German knives.

 

[Laurier]

For a first year culinary school student, I think a set of Thai Kiwi or Kom Kom knives is an excellent beginning, along with a good steel. They are very cheap but cut very well and should be able to get her without any problems trough at least the first year. They shouldn't get stolen and if they are or if they get deteriorated, no big deal as they are inexpensive and easy to replace. With more experience, she'll then be able to build on that foundation and progressively add knives of her choice, Dexter/Vic, Sabs, Germans, Chinese or Japanese, whatever she fancies....