Takada no Hamono Ginsan vs. Toyama Stainless Clad Blue Gyuto

[crawdad]

Hi all!

For any of those who have tried both of these knives, between the Takada no Hamono Ginsan Gyuto & the Toyama Stainless Clad Blue Gyuto, which do you prefer? I'm debating between the two to use primarily for various vegetable dishes. My wife will be using it a lot, hence leaning toward stainless (though ideally just stainless clad so it could develop some character).

Any help is much appreciated! I'm happy to fill out more of the questionnaire if helpful.

These are the two I'm looking at:

https://tsubaya.jp/products/takada-silver3-kasumi-gyuto-hou-hakkaku
https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/toyama-noborikoi-stainless-clad-blue-gyuto-210mm/
Thanks!

 

[superworrier]

Takada is shorter and lighter, with better fit and finish. Toyama is taller and beefier. Both have an asymmetric convex grind thing going on.

 

[Choppin]

The Toyama is taller, more blade heavy, heavier overall, F&F is meh - a bit more rustic.

The Takada has great F&F, is shorter at the heel, more nimble.

Both knives work well for all kinds of vegetables. In the end it depends on what you prefer in terms of blade height, balance point and F&F IMO.

 

[Choppin]

Also, I don’t see the measurements for the Takada but are usually undersized (200mm edge length for the 210 gyuto) whereas the Toyama is “true to size”

 

[blokey]

The Tsubaya Takada should be pretty close to Kikuichi Yohei measurement here, at 42mm it's kind low.
https://hitohira-japan.com/products...9&_sid=f56c3d9ba&_ss=r&variant=14048198197301

 

[timebard]

I've only tried a Takada in blue 1 (not ginsan) but assuming the geometry is pretty similar (somebody call me on this if not) the Toyama's the better general use cutter IMO. Toyama choil will be rougher but not enough to be an issue in use and that's easy to fix if it bugs you. Takada may have a bit better tip for fine detail work.

 

[esoo]

I had a Takada Ginsan 210 (but not from Tsubaya so there may be some size differences). 195x44, 125g. Takada’s grind is fantastic for such a lightweight knife - he was able to have great convexing on such a laser of a knife. I highly enjoyed it while I had (only sold it as I had a Shihan inbound).

 

[blokey]

Given that you are willing to pay for Takada and Tanaka x Kyuzo there's couple other knives I'd recommend.
Sakai Kikumori Yugiri is Tanaka forged Stainless cladded Blue#1, likely grounded by Myojin, tall and nice.
https://carbonknifeco.com/products/sakai-kikumori-yugiri-kiritsuke-gyuto-225mmKagekiyo Ginsan at Miura is also a nice laser knife by Nakagawa and Myojin
https://miuraknives.com/japanese-kn...3-70524-japanese-knife-kag.html#/34-size-21cmIf you don't mind waiting, ordering from Tadokoro would be good, you can customize the height of your knife, he does a great wide bevel, and his fit and finish is on par with Myojin and Takada.
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/buying-directly-from-tadakoro.60413/

 

[MowgFace]

I’d say a Suiboku 240 is closer comparison to a Toyama 210

 

[blokey]

I had a Takada Ginsan 210 (but not from Tsubaya so there may be some size differences). 195x44, 125g. Takada’s grind is fantastic for such a lightweight knife - he was able to have great convexing on such a laser of a knife. I highly enjoyed it while I had (only sold it as I had a Shihan inbound).

Oh yeah, OP can also custom order a Shi.Han in Aeb-l, the newer Takadas are in that price range anyway.

 

[crawdad]

Oh yeah, OP can also custom order a Shi.Han in Aeb-l, the newer Takadas are in that price range anyway.

Wow, thank you all for such thoughtful and informative replies. This forum is really something uniquely awesome.

So just given the feedback between the two, I think I'm skewing more toward the Takada. But then blokey came around...in the best possible way lol.

Blokey, you think for the price, the Sakai Kikumori Yugiri & Miura's Kagekiyo Ginsan is a better value and/or better knives?

I've come across Shi.Han before & after reading how well respected he is in these forums, I think he just became a top runner. Between the Takada & a Shi.Han custom, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks again everyone!

 

[crawdad]

I just did some napkin math on currency translation & at spot rates it looks like Takada's 210 SS Gyuto (37k Yen) is ~$260. I wonder why they haven't all been snatched up already.

 

[blokey]

Wow, thank you all for such thoughtful and informative replies. This forum is really something uniquely awesome.

So just given the feedback between the two, I think I'm skewing more toward the Takada. But then blokey came around...in the best possible way lol.

Blokey, you think for the price, the Sakai Kikumori Yugiri & Miura's Kagekiyo Ginsan is a better value and/or better knives?

I've come across Shi.Han before & after reading how well respected he is in these forums, I think he just became a top runner. Between the Takada & a Shi.Han custom, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks again everyone!

Tsubaya Takada and Kagakiyo Ginsan would be hard to beat in value, one thing for both is they fall on the narrower side, both less than 45mm at heel. I would describe Yugiri as heavier Konosuke FM, very solid knife. Shi.Han is more on the workhorse side but you can customize a bit with him. Personally for value I'd go for Kagekiyo. (Or Takada depends on your liking) Between Shihan and Yugiri it's tough tho, I did keep my Shi.Han and sold the Yugiri but that's just me.

 

[crawdad]

Tsubaya Takada and Kagakiyo Ginsan would be hard to beat in value, one thing for both is they fall on the narrower side, both less than 45mm at heel. I would describe Yugiri as heavier Konosuke FM, very solid knife. Shi.Han is more on the workhorse side but you can customize a bit with him. Personally for value I'd go for Kagekiyo. (Or Takada depends on your liking) Between Shihan and Yugiri it's tough tho, I did keep my Shi.Han and sold the Yugiri but that's just me.

Got it, ty very much. If I'm understanding correctly, if I want value then suggestion is Kagekiyo, but if I want more of a WH (and overall the better knife?), it would be Shi.Han or Yugiri. Is that right? Also, do you have a view on how the Tanaka x Kyuzo SS clad would compare? That's the knife I've been trying to find in-stock for a while now...until discovering this forum lol.

 

[blokey]

Got it, ty very much. If I'm understanding correctly, if I want value then suggestion is Kagekiyo, but if I want more of a WH (and overall the better knife?), it would be Shi.Han or Yugiri. Is that right? Also, do you have a view on how the Tanaka x Kyuzo SS clad would compare? That's the knife I've been trying to find in-stock for a while now...until discovering this forum lol.

Takada or Kagekiyo would honestly cut on pair on the more expensive ones here, their shortcoming (pardon the pun) are they are really short. Yugiri is not exactly a workhorse, it got really nice weight but got a thin grind, I would compare it to Konosuke FM in terms of cutting. T x K is honestly very good too, beautiful wide bevel but I don't own one so I don't know how it cuts, but other forum members praise it alot so I take it is good.

 

[crawdad]

Takada or Kagekiyo would honestly cut on pair on the more expensive ones here, their shortcoming (pardon the pun) are they are really short. Yugiri is not exactly a workhorse, it got really nice weight but got a thin grind, I would compare it to Konosuke FM in terms of cutting. T x K is honestly very good too, beautiful wide bevel but I don't own one so I don't know how it cuts, but other forum members praise it alot so I take it is good.

Thank you!

 

[superworrier]

Takada or Kagekiyo would honestly cut on pair on the more expensive ones here, their shortcoming (pardon the pun) are they are really short. Yugiri is not exactly a workhorse, it got really nice weight but got a thin grind, I would compare it to Konosuke FM in terms of cutting. T x K is honestly very good too, beautiful wide bevel but I don't own one so I don't know how it cuts, but other forum members praise it alot so I take it is good.

I like TxK a bit less but I hear the performance gets better over time as you thin because the very distinct shoulders get eased (the shoulders are wider than the spine actually)

 

[blokey]

I like TxK a bit less but I hear the performance gets better over time as you thin because the very distinct shoulders get eased (the shoulders are wider than the spine actually)

That's quite common in wide bevels, I got the same in my Kochi, and Togashi seems to have similar grind. I guess it is for food release, kind like Walkschliff grind.

 

[superworrier]

That's quite common in wide bevels, I got the same in my Kochi, and Togashi seems to have similar grind. I guess it is for food release, kind like Walkschliff grind.

I think it's way more pronounced in TxK than other wide-bevel knives (ex: Yoshikane and Mazaki are not like this). Sometimes it almost looks diamond shaped. I also feel like there is somewhat of an abrupt angle change at the shoulders. It almost seems like they kind of do some kind of grinding just there to make the shinogi look clean.

 

[bradmacmt]

An interesting discussion with excellent insights and suggestions (per usual).

I have several Toyama's including the 210 you're interested in. The Takada is really an entirely different knife (more like a lightweight Sabatier) whereas the Toyama is definitely more of a Japanese Santoku/Gyuto hybrid (taller with a nice flat spot and less pointy).

I'm a whole food/plant-based (clean-vegan) - vegetables are pretty much my life in the kitchen (I bring this up because you mention vegetables as the primary use for your purchase). I far and away prefer taller knives with some heft given the amount of produce I whack through, which is why I gravitated to Toyama. I have no use for a knife like the Takada (too light, not enough height, too pointy), but I'd certainly be open to the Sakai Kikumori Yugiri that @blokey referenced. I have a Sakai Kikumori Nashiji Bunka that I love.

 

[IMakeOnionsCry]

Lots of good insight in here.

I wouldn't tell you to not get a Toyama as I have one and it's one of my favorites. It's certainly a good bit more knife than anything else you were considering though, so if you do go that route maybe consider the 210. The edge retention is always going to better than the stainless options, and Toyama is like 135 years old and might possibly consider thinking about possibly considering retiring soon. JNS just announced that Toyama isn't going to be making smaller knives anymore, so maybe that's a sign that things are winding down, or maybe just a sign of the times. You'll be able to get a takada or myojin for many years to come, but likely not a toyama.

All that being said, I dont sit down and do all my prep work in advance. I've usually got multiple pans of the stove, while im still working things out on the board. The idea of a stainless knife is starting to appeal to me more and more. I'd real like something that I can just drop mid task and not worry about, so I'm in a similar shopping mindset as you right now. I think im going to get a custom tadokoro in ginsan like blokey mentions. It's a wide bevel knife, so if you're looking for a more convex grind like the Myojin and Takada's it's probably not for you, but the ability to customize it a bit I find ideal. They're running a bit over 300usd right now for a 240 gyuto from tadokoro (nakagawa forged). I'm going to ask for a bit of extra height in the heel. Let us know what you end up deciding.

 

[crawdad]

Thanks guys. Appreciate the insight. bradmacmt, I'm plant based w/ some fish, so that was very helpful thanks. I'm currently debating between the yugiri, a shi.han custom, or tadokoro custom. Will def let everyone know where I shake out.

 

[blokey]

An interesting discussion with excellent insights and suggestions (per usual).

I have several Toyama's including the 210 you're interested in. The Takada is really an entirely different knife (more like a lightweight Sabatier) whereas the Toyama is definitely more of a Japanese Santoku/Gyuto hybrid (taller with a nice flat spot and less pointy).

I'm a whole food/plant-based (clean-vegan) - vegetables are pretty much my life in the kitchen (I bring this up because you mention vegetables as the primary use for your purchase). I far and away prefer taller knives with some heft given the amount of produce I whack through, which is why I gravitated to Toyama. I have no use for a knife like the Takada (too light, not enough height, too pointy), but I'd certainly be open to the Sakai Kikumori Yugiri that @blokey referenced. I have a Sakai Kikumori Nashiji Bunka that I love.

Btw the Toyama 210mm nakiri at JNS is super fun, I have the iron clad version and it is one of the best veggie slayer I have.

 

[Heckel7302]

I think it's way more pronounced in TxK than other wide-bevel knives (ex: Yoshikane and Mazaki are not like this). Sometimes it almost looks diamond shaped. I also feel like there is somewhat of an abrupt angle change at the shoulders. It almost seems like they kind of do some kind of grinding just there to make the shinogi look clean.

My Togashi wide bevel is like this. about 0.4mm wider at the top of the shinogi than at the spine.

 

[bradmacmt]

Btw the Toyama 210mm nakiri at JNS is super fun, I have the iron clad version and it is one of the best veggie slayer I have.

@blokey, I've debated long and hard about getting the 210. I have a Toyama 180mm and I really like it, but it's a bit redundant given my arsenal. The 210 might make more sense. Of course "more sense" makes no sense at all given owning more than two or three knives is some sort of madness

 

[OnionSlicer]

Such an easy question; get the Takada for your wife and a Toyama 240 for yourself.

 

[mengwong]

For the Takada fans on this thread: a trip report. Also photos of Sakai Knife Museum and Jikko.

 

[zizirex]

I haven't tried Toyama, if you have a Wiener finger then yeah go with that one.
But for me personally, I have several Takada and the shorter heel height perform better than the taller one.

Also, Toyamanabe profile of Santoku-ish tip is just too hideous for me.

 

[Pisau]

Takada but are usually undersized (200mm edge length for the 210 gyuto)

The Tsubaya Takada should be pretty close to Kikuichi Yohei measurement here, at 42mm it's kind low.
https://hitohira-japan.com/products...9&_sid=f56c3d9ba&_ss=r&variant=14048198197301

Easy solution is to upsize to 240mm: Edge ~225mm and ~47mm at the heel. Tip to machi was 240mm to the dot. I just measured it.

 

[crawdad]

Lots of good insight in here.

I wouldn't tell you to not get a Toyama as I have one and it's one of my favorites. It's certainly a good bit more knife than anything else you were considering though, so if you do go that route maybe consider the 210. The edge retention is always going to better than the stainless options, and Toyama is like 135 years old and might possibly consider thinking about possibly considering retiring soon. JNS just announced that Toyama isn't going to be making smaller knives anymore, so maybe that's a sign that things are winding down, or maybe just a sign of the times. You'll be able to get a takada or myojin for many years to come, but likely not a toyama.

All that being said, I dont sit down and do all my prep work in advance. I've usually got multiple pans of the stove, while im still working things out on the board. The idea of a stainless knife is starting to appeal to me more and more. I'd real like something that I can just drop mid task and not worry about, so I'm in a similar shopping mindset as you right now. I think im going to get a custom tadokoro in ginsan like blokey mentions. It's a wide bevel knife, so if you're looking for a more convex grind like the Myojin and Takada's it's probably not for you, but the ability to customize it a bit I find ideal. They're running a bit over 300usd right now for a 240 gyuto from tadokoro (nakagawa forged). I'm going to ask for a bit of extra height in the heel. Let us know what you end up deciding.

Hey all. Just received my custom Shi.Hans thanks to everyone’s very helpful advice in this thread. They are incredible! Thanks again everyone.

Pic attached. 1 210 kiritsuke gyuto, 150 & 100 kiritsuke petty.