Takefu Steel Company History and Reputation

[Troopah_Knives]

I was recently looking into some different Takefu steels and was wondering if anyone knew a bit more about the company more specifically in comparison to Hitachi. Some questions I have:

1. Do the two companies have significantly different business models (I haven't seen many modern tool steels from Takefu)?
2. Do the two companies have different reputations among Japanese smiths?
3. Are White and Blue used as generic names (ex it some White2 Shiro2 from Takefu and some Shirogami 2 from Hitachi or does it always refer to the same thing)?
4. Is Takefu the only provider of prelam stock in Japan?

Any additional knowledge or interesting articles or thoughts on Takefu steels as well as experiences with them would be appreciated!

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

@JBroida?

@Larrin?

 

[HSC /// Knives]

#4 , I would say no, because Murray Carter gets prelaminated with Hitachi white #1

As far as experience, I first used the Takefu laminated Suminagashi steel in December 2015 in a class with Murray Carter, that’s the first time I forged and quenched it, and I’ve been using it on and off ever since. For me it’s a very friendly steel to work with.

They are on Instagram, you could ask them, or ask Alex Bazes.

 

[HSC /// Knives]

 

[Troopah_Knives]

View attachment 203649

Oh, right I forgot about that Dictum stuff. I actually have some in my shop. Although it seems like the only stuff available I've found from Hitachi is like 30mm wide. While Takefu seems to have a much larger selection. Although that doesn't necessarily reflect what is available in Japan.

 

[Blank Blades.]

Just looking at the takefu site. It definitely seems like a company that caters directly to bladesmiths. Or at least making materials specifically for cutting tools.

Also not sure what you meant about the shiro2 thing. I know that is a different steel than shirogami 2. The takefu shiro2 has a small amount of chromium, and also nickle.

 

[Troopah_Knives]

Also not sure what you meant about the shiro2 thing. I know that is a different steel than shirogami 2. The takefu shiro2 has a small amount of chromium, and also nickle.

Often knife stores will state that a knife is white steel. Is this a generic name that can refer to either Takefu or Hitachi or is it only one?

 

[Qapla']

Often knife stores will state that a knife is white steel. Is this a generic name that can refer to either Takefu or Hitachi or is it only one?

I'm guessing that people picked up on the Hitachi names (which refer to the paper they were stored in, not to any color of anything related to the metals themselves) and have been using them as a way of categorizing them more generically (e.g. 1095, 26c3 as "white" steels, or 1.2519 as "German blue").

However, I think it's limited to white and blue; I've never heard of anyone referring to AUS-10 (similar to ginsan, i.e. Hitachi Silver 3), AEB-L (of which gin-5, i.e. Hitachi Silver 5, is a clone), or A2 tool-steel (of which V-Gin-1, i.e. Takefu V-Silver-1, is a clone) as being "silver steels". And German Silberstahl ("silver steel") is completely unrelated to any of them. Nor have I heard anything about something being a "yellow steel" in the fashion of Hitachi kigami.

However, everything I wrote here is just a guess.

 

[blokey]

Compare to Takefu, Hitachi is much larger and produce basically every range of industrial steel. White, blue and yellow tho are specifically referred as Yasuki steel, refers to the city it is produced, those were produced with the intention of recreating traditional carbon steel used in sword making and other cultural activities, Hitachi acquired the plant and continue to produce them. At least that's what I heard.

 

[Troopah_Knives]

Compare to Takefu, Hitachi is much larger and produce basically every range of industrial steel. White, blue and yellow tho are specifically referred as Yasuki steel, refers to the city it is produced, those were produced with the intention of recreating traditional carbon steel used in sword making and other cultural activities, Hitachi acquired the plant and continue to produce them. At least that's what I heard.

Very interesting so would that imply that white and blue always refer to Hitachi steels? Part of why I ask is as mentioned previously in this thread Takefu and Hitachi's white and blue steel differ somewhat in composition and in my experience retailers often only post that a knife is made with "blue 1" or "white 1" and to me, this is somewhat vague.

 

[Matt Jacobs]

I have no real input but I have had a couple of knives in stainless clad V-toku2 from Takefu and it is one of my favorite steels I have had on a knife. Easy to sharpen, holds and edge and holds an etch forever.

 

[refcast]

Searching up the names in Japanese is where it's at to get the best primary source info

https://www.e-tokko.com/?lang=en

 

[EShin]

I was recently looking into some different Takefu steels and was wondering if anyone knew a bit more about the company more specifically in comparison to Hitachi. Some questions I have:

1. Do the two companies have significantly different business models (I haven't seen many modern tool steels from Takefu)?
2. Do the two companies have different reputations among Japanese smiths?
3. Are White and Blue used as generic names (ex it some White2 Shiro2 from Takefu and some Shirogami 2 from Hitachi or does it always refer to the same thing)?
4. Is Takefu the only provider of prelam stock in Japan?

Any additional knowledge or interesting articles or thoughts on Takefu steels as well as experiences with them would be appreciated!

Very interesting topic, hope to find out more!
1. As others already mentioned, business models are very different with Hitachi basically producing the steels as CSR rather than as business. However, with Hitachi having sold their steel business, it’s still unsure if the production will continue or not.
2. I don’t think there’s many smiths in Japan who have experience with both as basically only the smiths in Takefu work with their steel, but perhaps @ABazes knows more?
3. Some names are similar and it can easily lead to confusion, especially with their “Shiro2”, but not so much with blue steels.
4. I don’t think so but i don’t actually know. Would be very interesting to find out.

 

[ABazes]

As @blokey mentioned, Hitachi is a larger industrial firm and produces steels for many industries whereas Takefu specializes in cutlery steels. In addition to using their own steels in the laminated stock they manufacture, they also use Hitachi steels. So, you could have prelaminated Blue Super stock from Takefu. Given that their Shiro2 is a completely different steel from Hitachi shirogami (white paper) #2, it can be a little confusing. I’m not sure why Takefu chose the name for that steel, but I have always taken it as “White Steel: TNG.” It’s a lovely steel. The nickel addition gives it greater toughness and edge stability and the chromium improves the size and heat treatment response of the carbides (which are comparatively few).

Their VToku steels are similar in composition to the Hitachi blue/aogami series, but (according to Larrin’s article on tungsten steels) they have better toughness for a given hardness and wear resistance. I think the steel should actually score even higher in his calculations because he doesn’t include the vanadium content. (I understand why he doesn’t: the specs for the steel say “less than 0.2% V,” but if you look at their other steels that have no vanadium, they don’t even list it. So, at the least, I think it always has a small but significant vanadium addition). What I CAN say with certainty is that it’s really, really nice steel for kitchen knives.

Edit: Although Takefu has a reputation for quality, it doesn’t have the brand recognition that the Hitachi steels have, so many smiths prefer to work with those to increase salability. Takefu also does not make its mono steels as widely available as its preclad, whereas the Hitachi mono steels come in stock sizes that lend themselves more to forge welding work.

 

[Delat]

As @blokey mentioned, Hitachi is a larger industrial firm and produces steels for many industries whereas Takefu specializes in cutlery steels. In addition to using their own steels in the laminated stock they manufacture, they also use Hitachi steels. So, you could have prelaminated Blue Super stock from Takefu. Given that their Shiro2 is a completely different steel from Hitachi shirogami (white paper) #2, it can be a little confusing. I’m not sure why Takefu chose the name for that steel, but I have always taken it as “White Steel: TNG.” It’s a lovely steel. The nickel addition gives it greater toughness and edge stability and the chromium improves the size and heat treatment response of the carbides (which are comparatively few).

Their VToku steels are similar in composition to the Hitachi blue/aogami series, but (according to Larrin’s article on tungsten steels) they have better toughness for a given hardness and wear resistance. I think the steel should actually score even higher in his calculations because he doesn’t include the vanadium content. (I understand why he doesn’t: the specs for the steel say “less than 0.2% V,” but if you look at their other steels that have no vanadium, they don’t even list it. So, at the least, I think it always has a small but significant vanadium addition). What I CAN say with certainty is that it’s really, really nice steel for kitchen knives.

Edit: Although Takefu has a reputation for quality, it doesn’t have the brand recognition that the Hitachi steels have, so many smiths prefer to work with those to increase salability. Takefu also does not make its mono steels as widely available as its preclad, whereas the Hitachi mono steels come in stock sizes that lend themselves more to forge welding work.

I feel like I’ve been seen Takefu-specific steels more often from smiths on social media this year. Newham recently released a couple that I think were Takefu prelams with copper and vtoku2 for one, I forget the core of the other. I feel like I’ve been seeing more vtoku2 cores popping up, generally.

 

[ABazes]

I feel like I’ve been seen Takefu-specific steels more often from smiths on social media this year. Newham recently released a couple that I think were Takefu prelams with copper and vtoku2 for one, I forget the core of the other. I feel like I’ve been seeing more vtoku2 cores popping up, generally.

Quite likely. They send representatives with stock for sale to most of the major knife making and cutlery conventions.

 

[Troopah_Knives]

As @blokey mentioned, Hitachi is a larger industrial firm and produces steels for many industries whereas Takefu specializes in cutlery steels. In addition to using their own steels in the laminated stock they manufacture, they also use Hitachi steels. So, you could have prelaminated Blue Super stock from Takefu. Given that their Shiro2 is a completely different steel from Hitachi shirogami (white paper) #2, it can be a little confusing. I’m not sure why Takefu chose the name for that steel, but I have always taken it as “White Steel: TNG.” It’s a lovely steel. The nickel addition gives it greater toughness and edge stability and the chromium improves the size and heat treatment response of the carbides (which are comparatively few).

Their VToku steels are similar in composition to the Hitachi blue/aogami series, but (according to Larrin’s article on tungsten steels) they have better toughness for a given hardness and wear resistance. I think the steel should actually score even higher in his calculations because he doesn’t include the vanadium content. (I understand why he doesn’t: the specs for the steel say “less than 0.2% V,” but if you look at their other steels that have no vanadium, they don’t even list it. So, at the least, I think it always has a small but significant vanadium addition). What I CAN say with certainty is that it’s really, really nice steel for kitchen knives.

Edit: Although Takefu has a reputation for quality, it doesn’t have the brand recognition that the Hitachi steels have, so many smiths prefer to work with those to increase salability. Takefu also does not make its mono steels as widely available as its preclad, whereas the Hitachi mono steels come in stock sizes that lend themselves more to forge welding work.

Hmm okay, that makes sense their Shiro2 spec is very interesting you don't often see nickel addition in these 1% C steels. It makes sense that they focus more on cutlery stuff now that you say it.

Their V-Toku line is part of what got me interested (I have some on the way) It seems like a straight improvement on the Aogami steels the lower carbon probably helps (and maybe they balance their steels toward the lower end of carbon and the higher end of Cr compared to the Hitachi stuff). I interpreted the Vanadium in the spec as pointing toward the fact that it is used as a gain-pinning mechanism to improve forging. As with many Japanese steels its a shame that they don't publish more specific specs (SG2 is a good example of this mess)

It seems like Takefu really pushes people to buy their preclad stuff. It would be great if they had a bit more of a variety of cores steels available.

 

[superworrier]

It's very peculiar that Takefu has a ton of their original core steels listed on their website but you can't find many of them anywhere.

 

[superworrier]

Perhaps if Hitachi is actually discontinuing the blue/white/yellow product lines as rumored we will see more.

 

[Troopah_Knives]

It's very peculiar that Takefu has a ton of their original core steels listed on their website but you can't find many of them anywhere.

It's possible that some or many of them are discontinued and simply posted for comparison or to hook buyers into chatting with them so they can recommend the improved steel

 

[Troopah_Knives]

A2 tool-steel (of which V-Gin-1, i.e. Takefu V-Silver-1, is a clone) as being "silver steels"

This one too I wonder if SKD referred to only Hitachi or also the Takefu equivalents

 

[superworrier]

This one too I wonder if SKD referred to only Hitachi or also the Takefu equivalents

SKD is just a standard JIS grade to my understanding so it’s not specific to Hitachi

 

[Troopah_Knives]

SKD is just a standard JIS grade to my understanding so it’s not specific to Hitachi

Yes but my understanding was that Hitachi was the main supplier.

 

[ABazes]

It's very peculiar that Takefu has a ton of their original core steels listed on their website but you can't find many of them anywhere.

It’s possible that a lot of knives made with VToku are just being sold as aogami.

It seems like Takefu really pushes people to buy their preclad stuff. It would be great if they had a bit more of a variety of cores steels available.

I agree. I wish they made their mono steels more available, and in forms other than plate.

 

[stringer]

I have

Compare to Takefu, Hitachi is much larger and produce basically every range of industrial steel. White, blue and yellow tho are specifically referred as Yasuki steel, refers to the city it is produced, those were produced with the intention of recreating traditional carbon steel used in sword making and other cultural activities, Hitachi acquired the plant and continue to produce them. At least that's what I heard.

I can add a little bit to this because it intersects with stuff I have learned about razors. Hitachi started as a steel-making collective smelting Yasuki iron sands in tatara ovens. Think tamahagane style. Eventually it became a modern behemoth corporation and Yasuki became the marketing term for white paper steel before being mostly displaced by the white label itself. I don't know anything about Takefu.

https://historyrazors.wordpress.com/2016/09/06/hitachi-y-s-s-yasuki-speciality-steel/

 

[superworrier]

It’s possible that a lot of knives made with VToku are just being sold as aogami.


I agree. I wish they made their mono steels more available, and in forms other than plate.

Yeah I was suspicious of this. There was a whole debacle on CKTG where they sold knives as some steel but it turns out it was a different Takefu steel because they ran out of the Hitachi. Unfortunately, I cannot find the thread.

 

[Troopah_Knives]

It’s possible that a lot of knives made with VToku are just being sold as aogami.

Yes, I think so too!

I can add a little bit to this because it intersects with stuff I have learned about razors. Hitachi started as a steel-making collective smelting Yasuki iron sands in tatara ovens. Think tamahagane style. Eventually it became a modern behemoth corporation and Yasuki became the marketing term for white paper steel before being mostly displaced by the white label itself.

Hmm thanks for this this is exactly the sort of info I was looking for!

 

[zizirex]

Takefu V-Gin-1/V Silver 1 or Chromax is another name for SKD 12, which Yoshikane made famous with.

My guess is All the V Toku Steel is their generic version of Hitachi Blue steel.

IIRC, The Rainbow Damascus only comes with V-Toku, but some vendors sell it as a Blue, and some sell it as a VToku 2.

 

[Strozzi]

@superworrier, Makoto Kurosaki had an AS line and it is now VG7. Don’t think Mark sold any VG7 as AS, just had to pivot hard and try to explain the change.

 

[superworrier]

@superworrier, Makoto Kurosaki had an AS line and it is now VG7. Don’t think Mark sold any VG7 as AS, just had to pivot hard and try to explain the change.

You're right! Here's the thread in question How should I do this? - Chefknivestogo Forums

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