Three stone solution (well, maybe four...)

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jamiewakeham

jamiewakeham

KKF Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2023
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I'm much happier with my sharpening, having spent an incredibly useful evening with @cotedupy, and getting an Shapton Pro 1000 to replace my Amazon garbage stones. That's already dealing with 90% of my needs.

I've a birthday coming up and it strikes me that a couple more stones might be a neat thing to ask family for. I'm thinking of one above and one below my SP1000.

Below: I've found that for dealing with very dull stainless, the SP1000 is a bit slow. And one day I'm going to want to learn about thinning. I can see the Naniwa Super 220 and the Suehiro/Cerex 320 very cheap, and Naniwa Pro 400 and Shapton Pro 320 at higher but still sensible prices. I'm not fussed about soaking vs splash and go.

And higher: I'd like something that can be used as a maintenance stone for my small but growing collection of white and blue steel knives. The Cerax 3000 seems an obvious choice here.

So I think I'm defaulting to the Cerax 320 and 3000 . Does that seem sensible or am I missing a trick?

And, given that polishing is probably still a step beyond the level I'm working at, is there any real point in a Cerax 6000 as well?
 
I would go Shapton Glass 500 or Naniwa Pro 400 for coarse stones although I have admittedly not used the Cerax. Alternatively, you could get a Venev combo diamond stone like a 240 / 400 and that could be a great way to add something that will thin like a beast and act as a nice starting coarse stone. Note the Venev grits are not apples to apples with other companies. A 240 is more like a 400. The 400 is more like a 600-800. The 240 has a very hard compound. The 400 is soft in comparison.

For the high end I would go Cerax 3k, NP 3k, or Morihei 4k and call it a day. They are all fabulous. No real reason to go higher grit than that. Get a strop + compound if you want more refinement.

~Casey
 
Have you considered venev diamond stones. Those things last forever and perform really well if you keep them conditioned. These days I pretty much go straight from my 240 grit venev diamond to my belgian blue. The coarser shapton glass stones are pretty renown as well.
 
Do you have a flattening stone and a stone holder?

The Shapton Glass 500 is an outstanding stone and my workhorse but since you're trying to limit quantity, it might be a touch too close to your 1k. That and the stainless comment make the Pro/Kuromaku 320 attractive.

For a three stone setup that includes your 1k I'd strongly consider:
- SP220
- SG4k/Belgian Blue/Hard or Black Arkansas

For four stones I'd probably add in the SG500.

That setup will cover a lot of work. I would also get the coarse stone/s of choice before getting a higher grit. Some will scoff but some decent diamond compound on a piece of cardboard for a strop can give you a fair bit of edge refinement. Just be careful to not overdo it.

I personally don't see much use in going above ~4k and surely nowhere near that for crappy stainless.
 
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I have the Naniwa Pro 400 and I'm not sure it'd be a great match for you for two reasons:
-I think as a coarse stone it's...okay...but kinda too fine so if you're doing any thinning with it you're still going to hate life because it's rather slow. Part of the reason for this is that the Naniwa stones are a bit 'finer' than you'd assume from the number, so a 400 Naniwa is more like a 600 Shapton.
-That also means that the gap between a 400 Naniwa and a 1000 Shapton isn't really all that big.
I haven't really used any other course stones, but I'm sure others have good suggestions.

I second HHC's suggestion of a flattening stone, regardless of what else is on your stone shopping list. Atoma 140. There's other methods (like glass panes and silicon carbide powder), but if you're going for a flattening stone I'd always go straight for the diamonds. The cheap flattening stones are just a pain in the neck and you'll end up replacing them anyway.

And like HHC says there's diminishing returns from going to super high grit, so that's money you can save for now. As a starting sharpener your limit is going to be your skill level anyway.

For what it's worth, knives&tools currently has decent deals on the Naniwa stones. A Naniwa Pro 3000 is an option worth considering. I'd skip on the Naniwa 5k, it's a bit of an annoying stone to use, the 3K is the better option IMO.
 
Not to hijack but since OP is in Europe anyway...does anyone know a good European source for Venev stones?
 
Thanks for your thoughts, all.

The Venev stones don't seem to be very easily available in the UK.

An Atoma 140 does sound like it'll be a useful addition - I have a flattening stone that came in my garbage Amazon kit, and it does seem to do the job, but an upgrade there might be nice. A little out of budget for birthday presents (ideally in the £30 range for my family), but I'll keep it in mind.

I've been looking at the deals on knives&tools, as well as turners-retreat (which has some very well priced Cerax - I am strongly tempted by the Cerax 3000 for just £27).

K&T don't have the SG500 or SP220 in stock but they do have the SG320. And the SG4000. Hmm.

(I do appreciate that the higher grit is pointless for the stainless; I'm thinking that the stainless goes 320 -> 1000, whilst the carbon goes 1000 -> 3/4000)

I don't have a stone holder yet - relying on the case of the SP1000 for now - but that's a nice idea too.
 
Another recomendation for the Belgium Blue! Get a natural for some fun and join us hopeless romanticis. The bbw and coticules are generally pretty darn easy to use, convient, and do double duty as a nice polisher once you get into thining. I also have to admit I find the Belgium stones do better at abrading vg10 and other stainless than my arks/washitas.

Another option to consider is a diamond flattening solution.
 
OK, so now I've started peering down the Belgian Blue rabbit hole... they certainly look interesting. I wonder if going for a natural stone as only my third proper stone is running before I can walk?

But SwampDonkey's comment makes me wonder, is there any place in a limited stone selection for, say, a Cerax 3000 or SG4000 and a BB?
 
ethompson said:
Still another couple shelves to add. Can wheel it in and out of the closet as needed
1700313630397.jpeg
Click to expand...
 
jamiewakeham said:
OK, so now I've started peering down the Belgian Blue rabbit hole... they certainly look interesting. I wonder if going for a natural stone as only my third proper stone is running before I can walk?

But SwampDonkey's comment makes me wonder, is there any place in a limited stone selection for, say, a Cerax 3000 or SG4000 and a BB?
Click to expand...

You're talking to a group of people who all have far more knives and stones than we actually need. We're not your ideal restraint support group. 😁

I own both an SG4k and a BBW. BBW's aren't something I think you need really need experience for. They're pretty straight forward stones. Japanese stone scan have a lot of mystery and nuance around them but a lot of other naturals much less so.

You'd fine a BBW and they give wonderful edges but I'll advocate going with the 4k first. Mainly because it is very straight forward. I like my BBW with a little slurry to start so I have a small BBW slurry stone that goes with it. It's also a little more fuss for flattening. They wear slowly but still a consideration.
 
That's quite significant and important difference. I'd rather not indirectly support a terrorist organization...
 
I mean maybe there's a plant in Ukraine that makes the actual stones? I feel like they would have long run out of stock by now if they stones were made directly in Russia?
 
Jovidah said:
That's quite significant and important difference. I'd rather not indirectly support a terrorist organization...
Click to expand...
Hapstone is Ukrainian. I'd hope they only have relationships in Russia with like minded people/companies. Not everyone in Russia supports Putin's regime. That said, I have no clue what either companies stance is on the whole ordeal.
 
MSicardCutlery said:
I mean maybe there's a plant in Ukraine that makes the actual stones? I feel like they would have long run out of stock by now if they stones were made directly in Russia?
Click to expand...
I honestly don't know. It could simply be old stock? But yeah you'd expect that to run out...and it's not like you can simply drive across the (Bela)Russian border near Sumy, regardless of how close it is... Smuggling between RU/UA usually goes through third countries. Curious situation.
M1k3 said:
Hapstone is Ukrainian. I'd hope they only have relationships in Russia with like minded people/companies. Not everyone in Russia supports Putin's regime. That said, I have no clue what either companies stance is on the whole ordeal.
Click to expand...
Oh sure; I know there's plenty of Russians who have their heart in the right place, it's just that in the end every dollar or euro flowing into the Russian economy still supports the government, regardless of how indirect. I know the actions of me as a single consumer don't have an impact but it's more of a matter of principle for me.
But the fact that it's being sold by a company in Sumy makes it at least somewhat plausible that they have a more local source? It's actually making me really curious right now. :)
 
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jamiewakeham said:
I'm much happier with my sharpening, having spent an incredibly useful evening with @cotedupy, and getting an Shapton Pro 1000 to replace my Amazon garbage stones. That's already dealing with 90% of my needs.

I've a birthday coming up and it strikes me that a couple more stones might be a neat thing to ask family for. I'm thinking of one above and one below my SP1000.

Below: I've found that for dealing with very dull stainless, the SP1000 is a bit slow. And one day I'm going to want to learn about thinning. I can see the Naniwa Super 220 and the Suehiro/Cerex 320 very cheap, and Naniwa Pro 400 and Shapton Pro 320 at higher but still sensible prices. I'm not fussed about soaking vs splash and go.

And higher: I'd like something that can be used as a maintenance stone for my small but growing collection of white and blue steel knives. The Cerax 3000 seems an obvious choice here.

So I think I'm defaulting to the Cerax 320 and 3000 . Does that seem sensible or am I missing a trick?

And, given that polishing is probably still a step beyond the level I'm working at, is there any real point in a Cerax 6000 as well?
Click to expand...

A coarse stone (100-300ish} would be my recommendation for your second stone.
This would be good for thinning which is a great thing to learn, and also repair work. You can also start very dull knives with this stone by setting the edge bevel or thinning behind the edge a bit before putting on an edge.

For a decent price you could try a Shapton Pro 120, 220 or 320. I've tried 120 but 320 also is generally well reviewed. I cannot speak to the Cerax 320 or Naniwa Super 220 as I've never tried them. "Pink Brick" (Imanishi 220?) Is also frequently recommended.

The Naniwa 400 runs finer, and the Shapton Pro 1k runs coarser. You wouldnt have thought so but they are infact around the same grit level (600-700). Likewise Shapton Glass 500 is not too far off, so it wouldn't make sense using any of these stones in a progression with each other. You could replace the Pro 1k with a Shapton Glass 500 if you wanted a small upgrade.

A flattening solution is probably more important. Having a flat stone is going to be better than having more stones to play with. You could use a flat tile and sandpaper or loose abrasive powder, but an Atoma 140 or cheap AliExpress Diamond is no small luxury. The convenience of a diamond plate actually encourages you to keep your stones flatter.

So I'd probably recommend a flattening diamond plate and a coarse stone such as Shapton Pro or that "Pink Brick" to start with.
 
Well, that was a bit of a thread derailment..!

Chasingsharpness said:
For a decent price you could try a Shapton Pro 120, 220 or 320. I've tried 120 but 320 also is generally well reviewed. I cannot speak to the Cerax 320 or Naniwa Super 220 as I've never tried them. "Pink Brick" (Imanishi 220?) Is also frequently recommended.
The Naniwa 400 runs finer, and the Shapton Pro 1k runs coarser. You wouldnt have thought so but they are infact around the same grit level (600-700). Likewise Shapton Glass 500 is not too far off, so it wouldn't make sense using any of these stones in a progression with each other. You could replace the Pro 1k with a Shapton Glass 500 if you wanted a small upgrade.
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Thanks (to all). K&T have, in stock and for roughly the same price, the SP120, SP220, SP320 and SG320. The SG500 is out of stock. And the pink brick is quite a bit more expensive.

I think I am tending towards the SG320, mainly because I'd like to try something different to my SP1k, and if I find I want more cutting speed then at a later date picking up either the SP120 or SP220 to go below it.


Chasingsharpness said:
A flattening solution is probably more important. Having a flat stone is going to be better than having more stones to play with. You could use a flat tile and sandpaper or loose abrasive powder, but an Atoma 140 or cheap AliExpress Diamond is no small luxury. The convenience of a diamond plate actually encourages you to keep your stones flatter.
Click to expand...
Sure - I think there is almost certainly an Atoma 140 in my future. Bit expensive to ask for a birthday present (my family has a rule of keeping things in the £30-£40 range). So I'll carry on with the flattening stone I have, and when I get sick of using that I will pick up an Atoma!
 
It’s too bad the SG500 is out of stock. I never bought the SG320 mostly because it’s “half an f-stop” off the rest of my SG series – 220, 500, 1000, 2000, 4000 etc are all on the same scale.

If I had had a better music education I would probably be able to use the right term for the 320, 1500, 3000, 6000 alternates. But I’m sure the 320 will be fine for your uses! Have yourself a gritty little Christmas! 😁
 
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Super stones are for good for shiny polishing, from 2000 and up.

Below 2000 superstones...I don't know what they are good for..
 
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