To Hone Or Not To Hone . . .

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Paul6001

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After a long search (which was lots of fun), there is a 210mm Wakui Migaki Gyotu winging its way from Epic Edge into my greedy little hands. To say that I’m looking forward to its arrival would be a comic understatement.

Naturally, the new knife made me review my sharpening situation. I’ve got a 1,000/6,000 combo stone, so I think I’m okay on that front. The debate raging in my mind is whether to buy a honing rod or not.

This knife is my first foray into carbon steel. It’s stainless clad with a Shirogami/white #2 edge. (I’m doing plenty of patina research in addition to starting this thread.) I’ve read a few submissions to various forums that noted instances where, after many, many months, the knife appeared to dull. On closer inspection, however, the edge was still sharp, it had just rolled over on itself.

A predicament that cries out for a honing rod, no? Well, not so fast. First, there’s the controversy over whether honing is ever appropriate for Japanese knives. I think I’ve decided that it is, so long as the rod is appropriate. Ceramic, or something similar. Still, it’s an issue.

Next is the question of whether this is money that needs to be spent. A decent rod is going to run me $60 or so. Wouldn’t the 6,000 stone serve pretty much the same purpose? True, I’d have to soak the stone and set it up instead of just taking a few swipes on the stick and then putting it back in the drawer. But how often am I going to need it? I bought this particular knife because it’s supposed to hold an edge like LeBron holds a shoe contract. Even if a honing rod is the answer to a particular problem, how often is that problem going to occur? Still, this knife is soon going to be the most important thing in my life. Why would I do anything to lessen the experience? But is it really going to be lessened if every three months I have to . . .

You get the idea. I realize that there probably isn’t a “right” answer to this question. But any chance to discuss the new knife . . .

Besides the honing question, is there anything that I’m missing completely? Any consideration that’s gone completely over my head? I welcome your input.
 
First of all, good choice on the knife. The usual response is not to hone hard Japanese style knives. Lately though some people are using dick micro honing rod with great success even on very hard edges. This rod will set you back around $100, so I would probably stick with your 1/6K in the beginning and get the most out of that first.
 
I use something like this with success for quick mini-touchups.

https://www.amazon.com/Knives-Strop...rds=leather+strop+knife&qid=1571192889&sr=8-4

Your 6000 will be fine for quick touchups too. Do a few very light edge leading strokes. I'd leave the stone in water permanently if that's an option for your stone. (Ask the vendor, since it depends on the type of binder. Or ask here and maybe someone will know.)
 
My first choice would also be a leather strop, but not that one. Not for rolling burrs of sorts (and I say this as I can't remember seeing rolled edges on similar knives). That strop is great after setting the edge. I have one, love it. It can actually tell you if the edge has some problems.

Getting back to the rod in question, it would be my last go to thing, but since people do want one, I had to test some and see what's what even with harder steels. One of the better performers I found is this from Miyabi.
https://www.amazon.com/MIYABI-Tungsten-9-Sharpening-Steel/dp/B007KCZGBE
Price seemed fair to me. Now, with any rod, getting the pressure right is essential.

This being said, for the same amount (or close anyway), you might also get a splash and go stone, that would serve you much better. Obviously not as fast and easy as getting the thing out of the drawer, but I would still use a stone. What stone, is a matter of personal preference.
 
Are you a pro cook or home cook?

For me honing rods are something I use sparingly at work if my edge is losing bite. They take up very little space in my kit require no space on a counter top, and provide a decent result.

When I'm at home I never use honing rods.. At home where constraints on time and room are less of a problem, I strop my knives on leather with some chrome oxide or a high grit stone. This method provides much better results but requires a little space.

I think if you were to get a honing rod I wouldn't spend too much on it. Get an Idahone ceramic and call it a day for around 30$-40$. It will give you a good result quickly and efficiently. I don't think any honing rod will replace stones though.
 
Alder26 said:
Are you a pro cook or home cook?

For me honing rods are something I use sparingly at work if my edge is losing bite. They take up very little space in my kit require no space on a counter top, and provide a decent result.

When I'm at home I never use honing rods..
Click to expand...

Agree...OP Could easily buy chosera 3K for touch ups instead
 
He can replace the Chosera 3k with Kramer 3k. Much cheaper (~64$ right now). After the initial break in period, they're similar (I have both). For some reason, when new for a time, Kramer feels very different. It's thinner, but at the dishing rate I've seen, it's not a problem for a very very long time, I'd say years and due to the glass back, potential cracking is not an issue.
 
Well, to me honing rods (high qualitiy ones) are the best way to keep your knives sharp during work. And it is simply wrong, that they cannot be used on japanese knives. You have to know what you do and you have to know your knife's heat treatment, than you can deside, wheather it is usefull to use the rod an harder blades or not.
I completely disagree that a leather strop can do the same job better. But i fully accept everyone's experiences.
There are (very simplified of course) 2 different honing rods: Those, which remove material and those which don't. To me it's out of question, that only the second ones (those, which don't remove material) are to use with those knives. They only straighten up the edge. So you don't lose any material on your blade. This said, it is obvious that you have to thin out your knives rarely and you don't need to sharpen that often.

As already mentioned the best honing rod (imho) is the Dick micro, don't know where to get this one in the states, In Europe it's about 90$, which is quite some money. And you already have a 6k stone, which is fine for your knife. Therefore I would stick with this stone, there's nothing bad about it.

In summary (imho):
- Dick Micro is a great tool and worth every penny if you use your kinves a lot (and of course have the right ones) and know what you do.
- You can't compare it to other honing rods, which remove material. That's a completly different level.
- Stropping on leather is the worst thing you can do to your knives (allthough I accept, that it works for some guys)
- Using a 6k stone is fine and from an economical point of view all you'll ever need.

All the above are the results of my own experiences. Some guys may have made different experiences, which is fine for me.


Mack.
 
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A shirogami-edge that got rolled? Quite uncommon, must be a weak factory edge — that is very common. It makes no sense to restore an edge from steel that has failed. Get rid of it. Sharpen and start with your coarsest stone. You're going to remove a bit of material, so start by thinning a bit behind the edge, before reaching the edge itself and raising a burr. Use a marker and a loupe to see the progress.
 
Leather strops are taken for granted as one individual thing. They're not. They're just like stones and knives. Can be very different and at least some technique is reguired. A leather strop is also a lot easier to tune for a desired effect. There is absolutely no way of doing that with any rod.
 
mack said:
Stropping on leather is the worst thing you can do to your knives (allthough I accept, that it works for some guys)
Click to expand...

What’s your reasoning here? You afraid of losing bite? I often find that if tomatoes start resisting my knives, I can strop a couple times on loaded leather and the knife will slide through them again. I only take a knife to leather a few times before taking it back to a stone, though.
 
At work I use a ceramic rod, leather, and felt, makes a huge difference. My konosuke fujiyama and a W2 blade are used on everything - the rod and strop will make your life so much easier.
I'll be cutting 60# of fish and if don't use it every ok once in awhile I can feel the difference especially when scoring the skin.
 
ian said:
What’s your reasoning here? You afraid of losing bite? I often find that if tomatoes start resisting my knives, I can strop a couple times on loaded leather and the knife will slide through them again. I only take a knife to leather a few times before taking it back to a stone, though.
Click to expand...

To me, using leather is simply cumbersome - compared to a high quality honing rod. And the edge lasts longer with rod - at least in my experience.
There is also the possibility to dull and round the edge.

Imho (!) a honing rod is simply easier to use and the results are better.

Mack.
 
I really like my stones and sharpening in general but I also like having honing rods. I find I like them just fine for anything in the 54-59 hrc range. I have two traditional honing steels. An F. Dick Packing House steel (smooth) and a Forschner fine cut (I actually think I prefer this one). I find these are great tools for touch ups between touch ups, if you follow. Like, say I am in the middle of some butchery I am not going to stop what I am doing, wash my knife and take out a stone. No, I am going to take a few well placed, with no pressure, swipes on the rod and finish the job. Then after the job is done I can touch up on a stone or strop.

Japanese vs European knife has never really mattered to me one way or the other so long as the edge responds to the steel properly. By that I mean micro rolls are straightened out and the edge seems to cut better than it did before steeling. I find that if I try this on anything harder than a Ginga the edge degrades after steeling rather than improving (works fine on the ginga btw).

Realistically I save the rod for two knives though. The Sab (54) and the FKH (58), give or take.

Anyway, just my limited experience as a home cook (I get about 8 hours of board time a month with my knives) so take that for what it is worth.
 
When I started this thread, I hoped to start a high-level discussion among some knowledgeable people. I was more than gratified by the result. Thanks to everyone who contributed.

The discussion made me face a few truths:

-Do I need a honing rod? No. I’m not working on the line, pressed for time, only able to afford a few swipes on the steel before I’m back to work. God bless those who can handle the heat but I’m going to stay out of the kitchen.

-Do I want a honing rod? Yes. It’s easy, it’s convenient, and it lends a touch of drama to a dinner party.

-So I’d go ahead and get one—the tungsten rod had potential—BUT

-Jon Broida says no. I’ve heard the reasons before, but not from him. Two months ago, I’d never heard of the guy. Now, to me, he’s a little like Yahweh from the Old Testament. If my mother said, “I suppose that if Jon told you to jump off the Empire State Building, you’d do it.” My answer would be: “You betcha. Now how do I get to the 86th floor observation deck?” Jon says to use a finishing stone for a quick touch-up and I’ll do as he says. I’m looking for a splash-and-go model in order to speed up the process.
 
another option to both benchstones and steels is the shapton glass stone 7. and imo its better than both for quick touchups.
the glass stones are so small that you can have them in a pocket. 160x37mm, 7mm thick abrasive. you can use these both as bench stones and also as hand held since they are not heavy or hard to hold.
also available in almost all regular glass stone grits. https://www.dictum.com/de/shapton-ead/shapton-glass-stone-seven-hr-koernung-500-25-micron-711625

here is my 500 that i use as nagura on my big 500. i have a 500 for my 500 :)
can't deny how usable this little stone is.

glassseven.JPG
 
inferno said:
another option to both benchstones and steels is the shapton glass stone 7. and imo its better than both for quick touchups.
the glass stones are so small that you can have them in a pocket. 160x37mm, 7mm thick abrasive. you can use these both as bench stones and also as hand held since they are not heavy or hard to hold.
also available in almost all regular glass stone grits. https://www.dictum.com/de/shapton-ead/shapton-glass-stone-seven-hr-koernung-500-25-micron-711625

here is my 500 that i use as nagura on my big 500. i have a 500 for my 500 :)
can't deny how usable this little stone is.

View attachment 62896
Click to expand...

Also available here for those in the U.S.
https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Shapton-GlassStone-Seven-Stones-P1681C84.aspx
 
kayman67 said:
He can replace the Chosera 3k with Kramer 3k. ...
After the initial break in period, they're similar (I have both). For some reason, when new for a time, Kramer feels very different. It's thinner, but at the dishing rate I've seen, it's not a problem for a very very long time, I'd say years and due to the glass back, potential cracking is not an issue.
Click to expand...
Do you think it wears slower than the Chosera 3K? Have you had any cracking with the Chosera or the Kramer. I am gong to buy a new series of stones but having had cracking in Chosera/Professional Stones I really dont want to be burned again but I did love the stones. I thought the Kramer might be a solution although I have found one post with cracking mentioned for the Kramer (not confirmed) but considering way less Kramer stones I thought might still be an issue.
 
kayman67 said:
Yes, both have spider webbing cracks. I just epoxy most stones these days and don't worry about it.
Click to expand...
So you epoxy your chosera/pros I should say to a glass substrate or something. So you get the surface cracking on the Kramer glass dam. So much for sealing it as a solution. I have zero experience with the shapton glass. I am tempted to go chosera / pros again if I mount them but it is sad to have some with big crack all the way through stone.

I still am not 100% sure if it is too much water drying too fast or not drying out enough that causes the cracking. Do you think the thinner Kramer cracked quicker, also had WEPS chosera crack when they crack because of the crappy adhesive used it is bin or a short stone time.
 
Kramer developed cracks much slower and to less extent. Kinda confirms the harder nature I noticed, taking less water.

It's a very complicated topic. I wonder just how much the water itself (as it's not exactly pure) has an effect.
 
kayman67 said:
Kramer developed cracks much slower and to less extent. Kinda confirms the harder nature I noticed, taking less water.

It's a very complicated topic. I wonder just how much the water itself (as it's not exactly pure) has an effect.
Click to expand...
Any water it appears

Correction of my repeated and incorrect statement above regarding Magnesium oxychloride (MOC) stones, it is not the fact they are water soluble, although I had read that a number of places. It is the hydration of free MgO causes an increase in its volume, thereby leading to the generation of cracks

Some reading for those who care, anybody that has more than high school chemistry will get more out of it than me.
https://www.jocpr.com/articles/the-application-review-of-magnesium-oxychloride-cement.pdf
Using the Egyptian magnesite for preparation of some types of grinding stones
A nice review of https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/acs.chemrev.5b00463
Checkout section 5.2 Chlorocarbonate: Relation to Strength and Durability

Do if you have low humidity and use the stones dry they should never crack, back in the real world this splash and go should be called a mist and go and like your powder should be kept dry.

knivesandtools have the most pragmatic advice. ...
For that reason we strongly advise against exposing magnesium bound sharpening stones to (a lot of) water. If you do decide to sharpen using water it is important to properly let the stone dry after use. First you need to rinse off the remaining slurry. Please note: rinse it off with a little bit of water, do not submerge the stone. Afterwards dry the stone with a microfiber cloth. This material is great because it easily absorbs water.
slowly let it dry
Now it is key to let the sharpening stone dry gradually. In this case there is no sense in rushing things. Put the stone on its side to make sure any remaining water can drip off. Make sure the stone won’t dry in the sun or on the heater. After all, the heat of the sun or heater will cause the surface to dry faster than the core of the stone. The tension that is created could cause small cracks in the sharpening layer. We call these cracks hairline cracks. You can reduce the chance of these cracks by wrapping the stone in the microfiber cloth you also used to dry off the stone. As a result the surface and the rest of the stone dry at approximately the same speed.
Is it a bad thing if you do happen do come across hairline cracks? No, it isn’t. A smooth sharpening stone will, of course, look better and water could seep in the cracks which means that it could take a little longer for the stone to dry. But considering the fact that you already need to be patient when it comes to drying the stone, this shouldn’t be an issue. The hairline cracks will – as mentioned before – not affect the sharpening results, which is also something Naniwa confirmed. However, if these cracks do affect your sharpening process you could, of course, always appeal to the guarantee Naniwa hands out with their stones.
 
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