Vegetable cleaver vs nakiri

[Chef Doom]

I think I like a fatter nakiri with a beefier edge, and a somewhat thinner cleaver.

Get a double bevel Deba, the single bevel's evil twin brother. It will cost you though.

 

[Chef Doom]

Why not have both:
https://knifewear.com/products/moritaka-ishime-mega-nakiri-165mm

Overpriced imitation of a vegetable cleaver.

 

[Mucho Bocho]

Overpriced imitation of a vegetable cleaver.

Make sure you send it to Dave M for sharpening and finishing. He’s got a thing for Moritaka’s. [emoji4]

 

[Chef Doom]

Hahaha only if you want to raise his blood pressure with the infamous overgrinds.

 

[Mucho Bocho]

Indeed was my Nakiri that inspired the infamous “the madness has to stop...” thread. Ah the good ole days.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Doom you forgot to mention that two handing a single cleaver one on handle & other on spine you can smoke other blades in many chopping duties.

Thanks for your no holds bared cleaver support

I like cleavers so much once bought for cheap 9 old carbon cleavers from a guy here in Hawaii to restore. Some of those 50+ yr. old cleavers had awesome grinds. Thick at the spine thinning all the way to the edge.

 

[Marcelo Amaral]

I would add a pro

I think I like a fatter nakiri with a beefier edge, and a somewhat thinner cleaver.

Had a Mario Ingoglia beefier nakiri W2 steel made with that kind of thought exactly.

To me, nakiris feel the right tool to chop, more balanced in chopping than gyutos.

 

[Barmoley]

It sounds like for some people cleaver becomes the main knife replacing a gyuto. Do people use nakiri in such manner or is it more specialized. I am asking in general of course, special cases exist everywhere.

 

[Xenif]

It sounds like for some people cleaver becomes the main knife replacing a gyuto. Do people use nakiri in such manner or is it more specialized. I am asking in general of course, special cases exist everywhere.

I use my nakiri(s) as my main knife, especially for Asian cuisine; which nakiri depends on mood and ingredients I will cut.

 

[Marcelo Amaral]

In my case, definitely more specialized (chopping and dicing), not really a gyuto substitute in all areas. A nakiri doesn't feel like the right tool for carving or slicing big meats.

 

[Paraffin]

It sounds like for some people cleaver becomes the main knife replacing a gyuto. Do people use nakiri in such manner or is it more specialized. I am asking in general of course, special cases exist everywhere.

A nakiri might replace a gyuto if you're a vegetarian, but I'm a confirmed carnivore and a nakiri isn't a good meat knife. I only use it for veg.

I don't use a gyuto either, but that's because I prefer using a 190mm long petty/mini-sujihiki for soft protein (meat and fish) instead of a gyuto. For me, a narrow mini-suji blade is better for trimming silverskin on beef and pork, butterflying chicken breast, or trimming fish. Just feels like the right tool for the job when working with any kind of soft protein. The only time I haul out a different knife for meat is when I need an old Wusthof slicer for something big, or a Chinese cleaver (a matched pair actually) for chopping pork. That's only once in a while though. Everyday use is the nakiri for veg, and a mini-suji for protein.

I don't mind switching knives for specialized uses. I've never felt that one knife size and blade shape should do it all, but then I'm "just" a home cook and I have that luxury. If I was a line cook it would be different, I'm sure.

 

[Paraffin]

I'M GLAD YOU ASKED!

I've been waiting so long for this day

Bellow is the rundown.

I've been waiting for it, and you didn't disappoint!

A few selected rebuttals from Camp Nakiri on the Con section:

3. No Blade Tip - Being circumcised, you find that you long for that extra foreskin. It's like you are missing something. A part of you that had so many benefits, yet someone somewhere made the decision for you that you didn't really need it. Just doesn't feel the same.

If there isn't a tip, then what exactly am I cutting with, when I angle the nakiri up for draw slicing?

A tip can work fine at more than an acute angle if it's sharpened correctly, and I find that a curved nakiri tip has a smoother feel on the board when draw-slicing. It doesn't dig in as much as a 90 degree acute point. The front curve is plenty thin and sharp enough to start a draw cut in something leathery like a Fresno chili. You don't need an acute point for that.

4. Versatility - Is anybody actually using their Nakiri to slice up meat? Debone chicken? Has anyone even thought about it. I did once and the mere thought left me feeling empty and hopeless. Like I didn't deserve the better knives I had more suited for the job.

Straw Man argument. Nobody is suggesting that a nakiri is versatile, or that it's good for meat. It's a specialized knife, good for what it does, and that's general veg prep. I haul out my long petty/mini suji when slicing protein because doing that with a nakiri would be silly.

9. Unforgiving Edge - Unlike the Cleaver where the weight of the blade helps with the cutting motion, or the Gyuto which dulls in sections allowing you to cheat by moving starting at the heel or closer to the tip, you will feel the dullness of a Nakiri very quickly due to the tendency to make board contact with most of the edge at every chop, slice and dice. It is that sinking filling of pending DOOM!

Not in my experience. It's a question of good technique and the proper cutting board. When I'm chopping garlic (whack-whack-whack) I'm flipping the blade up and down with just barely enough board contact on each whack to get through the garlic pieces. Just a very light touch on the board is all it takes, not trying to murder the board with each whack. I'm still letting the weight of the blade do most of the work, it's just under control. I don't sharpen my nakiri any more often than my other knives in the same steel from the same maker, that get used just as often.

Another point not specific to nakiri (but it's relevant) is that I use soft hinoki boards for cutting veg, Those boards are very easy on the blade edge. Your mileage may vary on plastic or hardwood endgrain boards, but a light chop will still help with edge retention.

 

[KenHash]

Just my 2 cents but I don't see any point in comparing a Chinese Caidao (vs) with a Japanese Nakiri. A Caidao can and is used on and for just about everything other than where a Gudao may be needed. Whereas a Nakiri is used to cut vegetables, and only vegetables...no meat, no fish. The usage is different and reflects the differences between traditional Chinese and Japanese cuisine preparation. Apples and oranges.

 

[KenHash]

repeat

 

[Chef Doom]

Doom you forgot to mention that two handing a single cleaver one on handle & other on spine you can smoke other blades in many chopping duties.

Thanks for your no holds bared cleaver support

I like cleavers so much once bought for cheap 9 old carbon cleavers from a guy here in Hawaii to restore. Some of those 50+ yr. old cleavers had awesome grinds. Thick at the spine thinning all the way to the edge.

I completely forgot about the two handed technique.

Never found a vintage cleaver but I assume it is much like vintage caste iron cookware. They say it was better quality iron at the time but, without hijacking the thread, it was due to the following.

1. American labor use to be cheap so more man hours was put into producing pans.

2. A lot more competition meant more effort had to be put into the process to stay competitive. I heard vintage lodge is thinner, smoother and lighter than today's production.

 

[Chef Doom]

It sounds like for some people cleaver becomes the main knife replacing a gyuto. Do people use nakiri in such manner or is it more specialized. I am asking in general of course, special cases exist everywhere.

A nakiri in itself is not a specialized knife. That is a common misconception people make. You can make it specialized based on your own habits and routine, but that is not the original intention.

Like most double bevels, it is a general purpose knife with no real specification. They may say it is a vegetable knife for marketing purposes. You may not use it to slice a roast but you could dice up chicken meat easily.

 

[Chef Doom]

If there isn't a tip, then what exactly am I cutting with, when I angle the nakiri up for draw slicing?

Straw Man argument. Nobody is suggesting that a nakiri is versatile, or that it's good for meat. It's a specialized knife, good for what it does, and that's general veg prep. I haul out my long petty/mini suji when slicing protein because doing that with a nakiri would be silly.

Another point not specific to nakiri (but it's relevant) is that I use soft hinoki boards for cutting veg, Those boards are very easy on the blade edge. Your mileage may vary on plastic or hardwood endgrain boards, but a light chop will still help with edge retention.

It is not a tip, it is a corner. Otherwise, a gyuto has 2 has two tips. 1 at the front point and 1 at the heel. If you can agree with this observation than you may have a point.

The thing is, a double bevel knife is suppose to be versatile. I would say, in theory, not use a yanagiba on a roast with a hard crust. Let the suji make the sacrifice, but what would you recommend I use a nakiri for to save the edge of an usuba?

Using soft boards to save your edge is cheating.

 

[Chef Doom]

Just my 2 cents but I don't see any point in comparing a Chinese Caidao (vs) with a Japanese Nakiri. A Caidao can and is used on and for just about everything other than where a Gudao may be needed. Whereas a Nakiri is used to cut vegetables, and only vegetables...no meat, no fish. The usage is different and reflects the differences between traditional Chinese and Japanese cuisine preparation. Apples and oranges.

Because people do because they look similar. Part of my argument was that people misunderstand the concept of a double bavel knife in general. Think about the fact that almost every nakiri follows a similar shape even though usubas have multiple shapes and profiles. Partly because of the santoku market.

 

[KenHash]

I certainly agree that they "look" similar. But I suspect that if one watches each of them in use for a while the difference may
dilute that "similarity". Just my opinion. My understanding is that the double bevel Nakiri is a recent invention, starting in the Meiji era (1860-1890s) around the same time as when the Gyuto came about based on a French Chef's knife as a model. For that reason both Gyutos and Nakiris all follow a similar shape throughout the entirety of Japan.
Usuba's do come in various shapes because they are much much older than Nakiris or Gyutos. Although the main split would be the Kanto blunt end, and the rounded Kansai Kamagata. The change in the seat of Government from Kyoto to Edo (Tokyo) at the time may also have influenced the wide acceptance of the Kanto style blunt end for the Nakiri.

I'm still not sure if the Santoku developed from the Kamigata Usuba, or it was a deliberate effort to combine the benefits of both the Gyuto and Nakiri into one knife, or maybe both.

 

[Paraffin]

The thing is, a double bevel knife is suppose to be versatile.

Wait, what??!

Where is that written in stone? I have three Yoshikazu Ikeda double-bevel knives -- a 165mm nakiri, a 190mm long petty, and a 115mm short petty ("paring knife"). All in the same steel by the same maker, with different grinds; a thicker convex grind on the nakiri, thinner on the petty knives. You're telling me that the maker intended all these double-bevel knives to be "versatile" and not used for different purposes in the kitchen? C'mon...

I would say, in theory, not use a yanagiba on a roast with a hard crust. Let the suji make the sacrifice, but what would you recommend I use a nakiri for to save the edge of an usuba?

Usuba and nakiri are completely different knives for different purposes, not clones where the only difference is single vs. double bevel. Usuba is for hand-cutting specialized Japanese presentation vs. nakiri as a general board work knife that can work with any cuisine, not just Japanese. I've owned a high-end usuba in the past, I know what the difference is.

Using soft boards to save your edge is cheating.

Hah! Never change, Doom!

 

[Chef Doom]

Wait, what??!

Where is that written in stone? I have three Yoshikazu Ikeda double-bevel knives -- a 165mm nakiri, a 190mm long petty, and a 115mm short petty ("paring knife"). All in the same steel by the same maker, with different grinds; a thicker convex grind on the nakiri, thinner on the petty knives. You're telling me that the maker intended all these double-bevel knives to be "versatile" and not used for different purposes in the kitchen? C'mon...

I'm not speaking about the actions of a specific knife maker or what his specific intentions are. I'm speaking in generalizations. Just because some bread makers makes gluten free bread for some people who are allergic to gluten doesn't mean that bread is not generally made out of wheat.

Usuba and nakiri are completely different knives for different purposes, not clones where the only difference is single vs. double bevel. Usuba is for hand-cutting specialized Japanese presentation vs. nakiri as a general board work knife that can work with any cuisine, not just Japanese. I've owned a high-end usuba in the past, I know what the difference is.

I know they are different, but the Nakiri was still inspired by the Usuba to do more general things than the intentions of the Usuba and the cooking style that it was made for. If you are trying to make paper thin daikon you are better off using an Usuba vs trying to find a really thin Nakiri and sharpening at a very low angle.

 

[Paraffin]

I know they are different, but the Nakiri was still inspired by the Usuba to do more general things than the intentions of the Usuba and the cooking style that it was made for. If you are trying to make paper thin daikon you are better off using an Usuba vs trying to find a really thin Nakiri and sharpening at a very low angle.

I agree, and I'd have kept my usuba if I was doing anything like fancy daikon sheets.

As a general-purpose vegetable knife, a nakiri is restricted at the two extremes: It's not thin enough for fancy usuba cuts, and the shape doesn't lend itself to even more general-purpose work like cutting meat. Which you could do with a gyuto, or a Chinese cleaver if you're into that. For me, it still works nicely within those restrictions when I'm cutting veg.

 

[parbaked]

I don't use either but think I understand the historical difference:

Nakiri dates to a time when the Japanese diet at home was mainly whole fish and vegetables.
The two knives required were a deba and a nakiri.
I think usubas were more for professional kitchens.

Chinese had a more diverse diet in terms of meat and poultry, so they use the Chinese cleaver for everything.

What I don't understand is why a Chinese cleaver is considered so effective at meat and fish whereas the nakiri is considered useless for anything other than vegetables.

 

[Paraffin]

I don't use either but think I understand the historical difference:

Nakiri dates to a time when the Japanese diet at home was mainly whole fish and vegetables.
The two knives required were a deba and a nakiri.
I think usubas were more for professional kitchens.

There's some background in this post on the history of Japanese knife types:

https://cheftalk.com/threads/some-basics-on-japanese-knife-history-long.56934/

Assuming this is accurate (I don't have other sources), the important distinction here with Japanese vs. Chinese traditions are that early Japanese knives were either designed for vegetables (nakiri/usuba) or for fish (deba). No such thing as a general-purpose knife for both veg and protein. In fact, for a long time you weren't officially supposed to eat any meat or fish at all, although a lot of that was going on anyway, when it was available.

Chinese had a more diverse diet in terms of meat and poultry, so they use the Chinese cleaver for everything.

I'm not sure the diet was more diverse, although it would vary by region. China is huge, and naturally you get more seafood near the coasts, some river fish inland, and then beef up in the Muslim Northwest. What I've read of the history of Chinese cuisine is that meat was available but in small quantities, often seasonal or only for special celebrations. At any rate, they didn't have the cultural proscription in Japan against having two different knives for veg and protein that should never be mixed. So one big cleaver in both thin and thicker versions was the traditional knife for home and restaurant kitchens.

What I don't understand is why a Chinese cleaver is considered so effective at meat and fish whereas the nakiri is considered useless for anything other than vegetables.

Personal opinion here -- there isn't just one way to cut up meat and fish. The shape of a nakiri works fine if you're vertical chopping a pile of pork into mince, which is a major ingredient in Chinese cooking. But that works even better if the blade is larger and heavier, like a Chinese cleaver. It's why I bought two cheap Chinese cleavers just for that one thing -- chopping pork.

However, in my experience it's better to have a smaller, narrower blade when draw-slicing horizontally to butterfly chicken breasts, or filleting and de-skinning fish, that sort of thing. It's about surface drag. A narrow blade with less surface area than a nakiri or Chinese cleaver slides more easily through soft protein. So I don't use a nakiri for that, I use a long petty/mini-suji.

You could do this with a Chinese cleaver, you'd just have more drag from the larger surface area. I think it's worth noting that these operations like butterflying chicken or skinning fish aren't a typical form of Chinese food prep for meat and fish. The amounts of meat are small, cut in small pieces or chopped, and fish is often cooked whole without removing the skin. The cleaver works in Chinese cuisine because the knife and the dishes have co-evolved together.

 

[Noodle Soup]

One of the things I noticed in Cambodia was many of the meat cutters used Thai Kiwi versions of the Nakiri for just about everything but heavy chopping. Butchering is not something I would normally think of the Nakiri excelling at.

 

[gman]

i agree with some of the things Chef Doom is saying, but feel like i need to disagree with others. but instead of going point by point i'll just say this:

the proper comparison is Chinese cleaver to gyuto. both are single knives that could be used to prepare a whole meal. so any differences between a cleaver and a nakiri are irrelevant.

if i wanted to prepare a whole meal using two knives, with neither being a gyuto, i would chose a nakiri and a sujihiki, for veg and proteins. is a nakiri inferior to a usuba? maybe, but i think there are more reasons to use a double bevel than making the edge more robust or the knife more versatile. for one thing, not everyone has the skill to make a straight cut with a single bevel, so a nakiri has a clear benefit there.

 

[Mucho Bocho]

Be nice of Jon or Osaka Joe or Moog would chime in here. I like all this been said, funny how we justify our uses and just goes to prove that there are many ways to skin a cat. I used to be a nakiri hater till I found the love in one, now I grab for it often. I have a Chinese clever too but the steel is too soft to really hold an edge so its relegated to rough tasks. A gyuto is not a replacement for a nakiri but I think its quire a stretch to call a nakiri a lazy's cooks Usuba.

 

[Chef Doom]

Be nice of Jon or Osaka Joe or Moog would chime in here. I like all this been said, funny how we justify our uses and just goes to prove that there are many ways to skin a cat. I used to be a nakiri hater till I found the love in one, now I grab for it often. I have a Chinese clever too but the steel is too soft to really hold an edge so its relegated to rough tasks. A gyuto is not a replacement for a nakiri but I think its quire a stretch to call a nakiri a lazy's cooks Usuba.

They have given out enough free advice for you ungrateful fools on this forum. And why would Jon repeat things he already said a dozen times on a dozen different threads. You will only

A. Silently disagree and move on to another thread

B. Ask for further clarification that will take precious time away from porn, edibles and video games

C. Start a pointless debate about metalurgy, like we need another one of those.

D. Thank Jon for his input only to forget what he said 2 days from know and then ask him the same questions 6 months from now.

You know, KKF does have a search function. Sure it's not Google level but it should be used anyways.

 

[Marcelo Amaral]

I used to be a nakiri hater till I found the love in one, now I grab for it often.

Which one did the trick?

 

[Xenif]

Regardless of what opinions people have on them; I still love all my Nakiri, they are more than just a flat rectangle.