Want to buy a laser (or laser-ish) knife that has acceptable food release.

[warriorsfan]

Now, I know that lasers and food release often don't go together due to physical limitations, but I want a knife that is as close to being a laser while maintaining a decent degree of food release. The reason I bring this up is because I used to have a Forschner, and food stuck to it like crazy and ruined the experience. Some knives that I've had my eye on are the Gesshin Ginga, Sakai Yusuke, Konosuke HD2 and the Shibata Kotetsu AS. I'm certainly not limiting my options to these knives and really not even to "true" lasers for that matter, but I want the closest thing to a laser while reducing stiction and flex. I think a carbon-steel, or even a stainless-clad knife would be ideal, but I wouldn't be against the idea of a stainless knife if there is nothing comparable to it. A little bling would be nice too, but nothing too crazy and it certainly isn't a top priority. Hopefully y'all can help me out.

LOCATION
What country are you in?
United States

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chefs knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
Gyuto

Are you right or left handed?
Right-handed

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Japanese (Octagonal would be ideal)

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
240mm

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
No budget in mind, anything that isn't too crazy

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
All-purpose knife

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
Misono UX10 Gyutou 21cm

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.) Pinch grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.) Push cut, slice, chop

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)? I really dig the Tsuchime look (either smaller hammerings like on the Kono YS or larger ones on the Yoshikanes, and really anything in between), but a plain blade or a slight Damascus like on the Shun Classics is pretty cool too. Don't really like heavily marbled Damascus though, but at the end of the day, aesthetics are certainly an afterthought to cutting performance, sharpenability, F&F etc.

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)? Nothing specific here, just something that is comfortable and suits my grip preferences.

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)? Less wedging is certainly important here, seeing as that's the main reason I'm going for laser-like knife in the first place. As I mentioned earlier, I'm looking for acceptable food release as well. Finally, I do want the knife to be easier to sharpen but I would assume that would come with most high-end carbon-steel/stainless clad knives and some stainless ones as well.

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)? Edge retention is certainly important for me. I don't want to sharpen super often, maybe once a month at most.



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.) Yes (end-grain maple)

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.) Yes



SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

 

[user 16756]

if you like the way the yoshikane looks, I wouldnt be turned off the fact that it's not a super flat, obvious laser.

they are wickedly thin, if you want to take only one step from a stiction inducing laser then it's hard to find a better choice.

 

[daveb]

Welcome.

Of the knives you cited the Kono will offer a nice combination of Laser and food release. IMO Yoshikane will offer better. Look to K&S, CKC, CC The GGinga is a very nice laser but will suffer (IME) in the release department.

 

[warriorsfan]

Welcome.

Of the knives you cited the Kono will offer a nice combination of Laser and food release. IMO Yoshikane will offer better. Look to K&S, CKC, CC The GGinga is a very nice laser but will suffer (IME) in the release department.

Hey! When you talk about the Yoshikane, in what way would it be better (I think you're response may have cut off)? Also, where would a knife like a Gengetsu fall into this threshold of lasers and food stiction?

Also, I'm assuming by Kono, you're referring to the HD2 and not the Sanjo? How does the steel perform, and is it really a downgrade, from say, Shirogami #2?

 

[warriorsfan]

if you like the way the yoshikane looks, I wouldnt be turned off the fact that it's not a super flat, obvious laser.

they are wickedly thin, if you want to take only one step from a stiction inducing laser then it's hard to find a better choice.

The one that I was talking about specifically was the Yoshikane Kurouchi Tsuchime White #2 Gyuto 240mm Chestnut Handle, which has a thickness of almost 4mm which feels awfully thick, although I stand to be corrected.

 

[daveb]

Hey! When you talk about the Yoshikane, in what way would it be better (I think you're response may have cut off)? Also, where would a knife like a Gengetsu fall into this threshold of lasers and food stiction?

The nashiji finished Yoshi is very thin at the edge and behind the edge. It's surprising that the food release is good / decent for such a thin knife. I'm specifically addressing the nashiji finish, either white or SKD from CKC, K&S Amekiri, CC Kashima Sanjo. Not only are they great cutters but they are relatively easy to maintain.

The Gengetsu is probably my favorite off-the-shelf knife but edge maintenance is a little more demanding due to a more complex grind. A little more ass to it, better food release, not as thin (though tip is amazing) I consider it a mid-weight. Certainly nothing bad to say about it.

 

[daveb]

The one that I was talking about specifically was the Yoshikane Kurouchi Tsuchime White #2 Gyuto 240mm Chestnut Handle, which has a thickness of almost 4mm which feels awfully thick, although I stand to be corrected.

FWIW, I've found the hammered finished Yoshi (Epic Edge version) to be a little chunky for my liking. I don't like the hammered finish so have not explored other options.

 

[Jason183]

Hey! When you talk about the Yoshikane, in what way would it be better (I think you're response may have cut off)? Also, where would a knife like a Gengetsu fall into this threshold of lasers and food stiction?

Also, I'm assuming by Kono, you're referring to the HD2 and not the Sanjo? How does the steel perform, and is it really a downgrade, from say, Shirogami #2?

I think he is referring to Kono HD2, cause it has very good convexity grind. Hd2 is like semi stainless white steel, easy to sharpen and holds the edge better than same HRC white steel, so I would say it’s an upgrade.

 

[jurassicpark]

So from what I'm getting, the Konosuke HD2 is probably the laser with the best food release. Any reason as to why? I mean, the blade itself looks awfully similar to the Ginga. How exactly does the HD2 steel perform in comparison to a white carbon steel?

I also saw good things about the Shibata Kotetsu (moreso on the R2 variant, but I personally am more interested in the AS model), so I wanted to know how food release on that knife was if you've tried it.

Also, finally, how much of food release comes down to technique? Right now, I would say I have average knife skills, but if food release is something that got better over time based on knife skills, I might just say screw it and go for a bonafide laser.

EDIT: Just saw Jason183's reply on the steel, that certainly explains part of it, are there any downsides though to the HD2 steel apart from no/less patina (which is something I don't mind)?

 

[daveb]

This.

You cited the Kono HD2, my response was referring to HD2. Very nice knife and relatively inexpensive. I sold mine because of similarities to the Yoshis and Gengetsus that I have a slight preference for.

 

[jurassicpark]

This.

You cited the Kono HD2, my response was referring to HD2. Very nice knife and relatively inexpensive. I sold mine because of similarities to the Yoshis and Gengetsus that I have a slight preference for.

OK then, that explains it. May I ask why you prefer the other knives over the HD2? Is it just a preference thing over laser and workhorse, or is there anything that makes the HD2 inherently inferior to those knives? Atm, the HD2 looks like my best bet.

 

[timebard]

FWIW, I've found the hammered finished Yoshi (Epic Edge version) to be a little chunky for my liking. I don't like the hammered finish so have not explored other options.

I've heard this before but it seems like there's some real variation between (or within) batches from EE. My 210 is just 125g and not chunky by any stretch.

 

[daveb]

So from what I'm getting, the Konosuke HD2 is probably the laser with the best food release. Any reason as to why? I mean, the blade itself looks awfully similar to the Ginga. How exactly does the HD2 steel perform in comparison to a white carbon steel?

Also, finally, how much of food release comes down to technique? Right now, I would say I have average knife skills, but if food release is something that got better over time based on knife skills, I might just say screw it and go for a bonafide laser.

EDIT: Just saw Jason183's reply on the steel, that certainly explains part of it, are there any downsides though to the HD2 steel apart from no/less patina (which is something I don't mind)?

I've never thought the HD2 was a laser. Light mid-weight sure. Yoshi food release, ime, is better than HD2. You will likely not notice any performance difference in HD2 steel and white. HD2 being semi-stainless will look "splotchy", never could get a nice looking finish on mine.

Food release is partially technique but a lot of it comes down to physics. A very thin knife does not have the substance to support good food release.

To your other question, I prefer Gengetsu and Yoshi cause they feel like they were made for me. A little guillotine on the HD2, Gengetsu and Yoshi are flatter (to me). I've not suggested by any means the HD2 is "inferior", I simply prefer the Gengetsu / Yoshi.

I also prefer Toyota, but would not disparage Nissan or Mazda.

 

[tostadas]

The one that I was talking about specifically was the Yoshikane Kurouchi Tsuchime White #2 Gyuto 240mm Chestnut Handle, which has a thickness of almost 4mm which feels awfully thick, although I stand to be corrected.

I havent tried the hammered version of Yoshikane, but I do have the nashiji in SKD. It tapers really fast, so thickness at heel is not an accurate representation of overall blade. Here are the measurements I took from my 240mm

Spine (heel, midblade, 1cm from tip):
3.6mm, 2.1mm, 0.75mm

Thickness behind edge at midpoint (1mm, 5mm, 10mm, 20mm):
0.2mm, 0.55mm, 1.0mm, 1.8mm (the measurements for front 1/3 of the knife is approx 0.1mm thinner)

So if these numbers give you any indication of grind, it should tell you that the cutting edge is super thin.

As for grind, it's pretty close to flat ground to the shinogi line at 20mm above the edge, then there's a slight convex transition to fairly flat up til the spine. I find the food release decent, considering the thinness of the grind.

 

[Jason183]

So from what I'm getting, the Konosuke HD2 is probably the laser with the best food release. Any reason as

EDIT: Just saw Jason183's reply on the steel, that certainly explains part of it, are there any downsides though to the HD2 steel apart from no/less patina (which is something I don't mind)?

The down side is if you let it sit it can still form rust, but a little extra care it can be completely stainless. Another down side is for been a laser, you don’t want to break down fish with it.

 

[jurassicpark]

Well I guess that solves my dilemma too (at least for the Gyuto)! Thanks to warriorsfan for creating this thread and to all of you for helping me out!

 

[M1k3]

Yoshikane.
Laserish.
Decent food release for how thin it is.

 

[chiffonodd]

+1 for kashima sanjo. Generally speaking I think the sanjo midweights are what you're after. They perform like a "laser plus." Nice distal and spine-to-edge taper so they're quite thin behind the edge and toward the tip, but enough meat at the spine for some stiffness and a bit more real estate for some convexity in the grind.

I say kashima sanjo because it's in stock at cleancut and probably the best deal you'll get on one of these knives for the foreseeable future:

https://www.cleancut.eu/butik/knifetype/gyuto/kockkniv24_kashima_sanjo-3054-3055-3056-3057-detail
I believe prices are inclusive of VAT so it'll be a lot cheaper than that to buy from the US.

Good luck!

 

[SeattleB]

FWIW, I've found the hammered finished Yoshi (Epic Edge version) to be a little chunky for my liking. I don't like the hammered finish so have not explored other options.

I've heard this before but it seems like there's some real variation between (or within) batches from EE. My 210 is just 125g and not chunky by any stretch.

I have the hammered SKD12 (A2) version from Epic Edge. It's 240 x 48mm and the weight is 141g for the blade alone; 170g with the standard handle (is that Ho or Magnolia?).

The thickness measurements: At the front of the handle it measures 4.1mm. That quickly tapers to 3.3 at 1cm in front of the heel, then there is a smooth distal taper: down to 2.3mm at the midpoint and then down to 1.6 at the point on the spine where the grind begins. From there the tip is very thin behind the edge. It's consistently 1.0mm thick at 1cm behind the edge.

 

[DavidPF]

(is that Ho or Magnolia?)

AFAIK the Japanese magnolia is called "ho" in Japanese.

 

[SeattleB]

Great to know. Now I can casually talk about having my ho in the kitchen at home.

 

[wombat]

Kurosaki Shizuku R2 might fit the bill

 

[@ftermath]

I have the hammered SKD12 (A2) version from Epic Edge. It's 240 x 48mm and the weight is 141g for the blade alone; 170g with the standard handle (is that Ho or Magnolia?).

The thickness measurements: At the front of the handle it measures 4.1mm. That quickly tapers to 3.3 at 1cm in front of the heel, then there is a smooth distal taper: down to 2.3mm at the midpoint and then down to 1.6 at the point on the spine where the grind begins. From there the tip is very thin behind the edge. It's consistently 1.0mm thick at 1cm behind the edge.

I went through a pretty exhaustive search not long ago and the hammered finish were consistently the lightest of the offerings on the market. The Nashiji finish was roughly 30 grams heavier on average.

 

[Nagakin]

Also, finally, how much of food release comes down to technique? Right now, I would say I have average knife skills, but if food release is something that got better over time based on knife skills, I might just say screw it and go for a bonafide laser.

It also comes down to how well you know a particular knife and what you're having food release issues with. I'd say it's less about refining your techniques and more about using the correct ones. It's going to be different for soft potatoes and hard squash, and different again depending on cut sizes. Speed is the factor that comes after that. Practice how to adjust and maintain board contact at speed per product.

If you use the correct cut, with the correct part of your knife quickly enough, while making love taps on the board you will be surprised at what any knife can do.

 

[mushy_pork]

I am by no means an expert. However, I own a lot of various knives, and feel I can at least share my opinion.

I have a Shibata bunka, that is my most laser-like knife I have. Super thin, tiny convex grind. I think the blade height definitely makes it easier to be ground thinner. Also, my most chippy knife.

From there I'd say Ginga, and also a Takada which you could argue are the same, given their history. These are thin with convex grind. The release is a gradual feeling, I'd say release is dependent on the stickiness of the food.

Then Gesshin Kagekiyo White #1 (the expensive one). This is a thin wide bevel knife. Release is similar to a convex Ginga, but because it's wide bevel, it has more of a "pop" of release than gradual.

Then Masakage Koishi. This is not a "laser", but it's very thin behind the edge due to the hollow concave grind. A lot of people have strong opinions on hollow grind, and rightfully so due to issues with future sharpening and thinning (if you get to that point). It has nice release, but can feel thicker when doing side cuts on onions for example.

Final weird mention, I have a Takeda sasanoha (not Takada) that is very thin, however mine is a newer one and has the "axe-like" grind. It has the best food release on soft foods, but I wouldn't call the experience using it "laser-like"

Anyways, if you want bling, get a Takada, no bling get a Ginga

 

[captaincaed]

My Yoshi will release very well 90%, and sticks 10%. It's in my top 3 knives ever. It cuts amazing, just manage expectations, no knife is magical.

For a lesser known, try Bazes. 1.8mm above the heel with a forged hollow for food release. Lots of careful considered details in his work.


Also, I was very happy with the Kochi 210mm gyuto in this category. Became a gift to dad so I can't shoot a vid for you.

 

[ian]

If you are ok with a flat profile, Yoshikane, Kashima Sanjo and Gengetsu (perhaps all of which are Yoshi) are the answer.

 

[warriorsfan]

My Yoshi will release very well 90%, and sticks 10%. It's in my top 3 knives ever. It cuts amazing, just manage expectations, no knife is magical.

For a lesser known, try Bazes. 1.8mm above the heel with a forged hollow for food release. Lots of careful considered details in his work.


Also, I was very happy with the Kochi 210mm gyuto in this category. Became a gift to dad so I can't shoot a vid for you.

Hey! The Yoshikane looks killer, I must say. If you wouldn't mind, what would your other top 2 knives be, because you're preferences seem to match with mine given you've placed the Yoshikane in that list?

Also, I'm having trouble finding this Bazes knife you're talking about, could you link to it?

 

[captaincaed]

Sure. The Kochi 210 is also in my top 3. The Bazes petty is probably my other, but doesn't fit your size bill. The larger one doesn't release quite as well, but it's nowhere near being sticky at all. I have a Rader from 2 years ago that's a very good midweight, but pricey. Mizuno has an excellent grind as well, but the cladding is quite reactive. Midweight but cuts very very well. Masashi is very thin, great even grind, worked at Yoshikane before starting his own shop. Not a sticky knife but a very thin edge you need to be careful with.

https://www.bazesblades.com/shop
Also listen to Nagakin about technique, rhythm, cut size and differences between foods. No knife or technique is perfect in every situation.

 

[panda]

kippington laser is the only laser that doesn't have ****** release