Hi all so the last two days I've racking my brain I'm sure I've seen or heard of before whetstones that are made using ground up powdered jnat stone but on google searching I can not for the life of me find anything about it... Have I made this up in my head or not understood previously? I've got a whetstone currently that's 3000/8000 and a Welsh purple slate that I finish on and I get nice polished but still slightly toothy edges especially on my blue #1 but I'm looking to step up my game in a big way with buying a TF Denka no hoto in a few months time... Do these stones exist and would they be worth it? What stones would be worth while either replacements or bonuses to my current array... The whetstone I have 3000/8000 is a wusthof I got around 6 years ago.
Whetstone advice wanted am I crazy?
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VICTOR J CREAZZI
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I've heard of stones made from ground coticule, but not of Jnat
Bart.s
Well-Known Member
https://hitohira-japan.com/collecti...products/aaeaa-010-9000?variant=6946487664693
This one?
EDIT: I see you're from Scotland, also available in Europe:
https://www.whetstone.fi/product/116/morihei-karasu-9000
This one?
EDIT: I see you're from Scotland, also available in Europe:
https://www.whetstone.fi/product/116/morihei-karasu-9000
Infrared
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Oh wow that's the exact stone I was thinking of Bart.s the other ones too Infrared look great as well.. I'm looking to get something as polished as I can but with a bite to it still... Something I find my Welsh slate I have to be a bit careful of it can give me some tooth but it can also go so damn smooth that you can't cut tomato or even newspaper. I'm trying to find something that's got a nice polish that'll still slice everything I want nicely with a santoku. Mainly soft to medium hardness veg, fruit and meats... I definitely don't like the 8k finish on the wustof seems a bit rough feels about the same as an ex Co workers 4k 
Bart.s
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Glad to be of service 
. But to still have some nice bite, you don't need to go that high in grit. My progression stops at 3K-5K.
. But to still have some nice bite, you don't need to go that high in grit. My progression stops at 3K-5K.
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user 16756
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are you trying to sharpen anything other than just the apex with these stones? a 3k/8k combo and one of these isnt going to cut it for that. not even close. in fact, if the knife ever dulls even doing the apex with that wont cut it. youre not going to make meaningful progress on 65+ hrc TF steel with a 3k.
furthermore you cant compare what the very hard carbon aogami super edge feels like off a stone to what a wusthof does.
ugh Im gonna take some fire from the people who feel any comment that's not overwhelmingly positive about TF is a personal insult, but I think youre biting off more than you can chew here. that said, if you have the money, by all means go acquire all the synthetic stones youll need (so like, 220, 500, 1000, a 2 or 3k, and make sure you get ones that can cut such high hrc steel) and a suita I think that would cover the basics.
If you're just sharpening edges, there's no reason at all to get a stone that has anything to do with jnats. Just get a Shapton Glass 4k or a Gesshin 4k. You're never going to get a better gyuto edge than those, probably. (I only have the Gesshin, but people I respect like the Glass too in that grit.) At some point you'll want a 1k and/or a 500, but just get one of the 4k's and when you need a lower grit stone you'll know it, because you'll be fed up with spending time on higher grit stones. That said, the Gesshin is stupid fast for a 4k.
I use the 3000/8000 on my 66hrc sg2 miyabi birchwood okay but I will be honest in that I sit get music on and go to work for a good while when I sharpen my knives which could change my results and opinions on things other than that my 63hrc blue #1 I thinned on the "3000" side of the wustof stone and it came out fine.. I know fujiwara can have some fit and finish issues but working in Japanese sectors I've always been told by the chefs a Japanese knife isn't meant to come finished that they come ready to work and you make it as polished or sharp as you like... I don't mind putting in work on a blade if It does need anything. However I do want to step my game up and make my knives as nice as I can make them.
Oh, if you're actually planning to thin and such, you should immediately get some lower grit stones.
Personally, I think that if you have to put music on and go to work for a while for a routine sharpening, you should be using a lower grit stone.
Personally, I think that if you have to put music on and go to work for a while for a routine sharpening, you should be using a lower grit stone.
I haven't used the stones you have so cant compare, but I do have an Arashiyama 6K which is one of the natural synthetic blends and it ended up being one of my least used finishers.
I love the idea of blending synthetics and naturals and thought it would be the killer app, but as it turns out, its like any other stone. Works for some, doesn't work for others.
My advice if you want to go down the waterstone rabbit hole is to be open minded and try everything until you find stones you like. If money is an issue, you can trade ( there is a buy trade sell forum on this board ). I'm sure there is something local in Scotland.
I love the idea of blending synthetics and naturals and thought it would be the killer app, but as it turns out, its like any other stone. Works for some, doesn't work for others.
My advice if you want to go down the waterstone rabbit hole is to be open minded and try everything until you find stones you like. If money is an issue, you can trade ( there is a buy trade sell forum on this board ). I'm sure there is something local in Scotland.
I am looking into possibly a 400? I've been lucky enough in that I've never needed lower in all my years I keep my knives fairly sharp and polished however I do tend to spend about 30-40 minutes per blade when I'm sharpening... I would like to get into some rebeveling on my blue #1 it's always had a bit of over and under grinding and I've just kept using it very slowly correcting it with sharpening. It would definitely be nice to be able to get a nice clean straight bevel on both sides of if.
Bart.s
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I guess you will hear a lot of music when you thin on a 3K 
About 10-15 Elvis Presley songs the first timeI guess you will hear a lot of music when you thin on a 3K
now I just spend a few minutes per side each time I sharpen running it up and down the stone to very slowly keep it there... The takeo murata came with thick and thin spots like a rollarcoater on the finger it was
That's a really long time. Are you going a long time between sharpenings? For a routine touchup sharpening 5 min is a more reasonable figure, even with a 3k. And even for a more significant sharpening (not with a lot of thinning though) it shouldn't take you much longer than that if you use the right stone.
Well I kinda just strop backwards on the Welsh slate and once just that doesn't give me the feel I want (through a potato straight down with no pressure) I just pull the stones out get the 3k/8k soaking and sit at it... Way I was taught by my Japanese master... 40 each side then 20, 10, 5, 2,2,2,2, 1 each 10 times and then up to the next stone usually though I get away with just doing 8k then the Welsh slate.
I'd work via feedback rather than counting strokes. It'll be much more consistent. Counting strokes is like trying to walk to the store blindfolded by remembering what steps you need to take. It might get you there, but you also might walk into a car, and it's more efficient to just look where you're going. Focus on raising an even burr that you can feel, then removing it. You'll never be able to minimize the amount of steel removed with your method, and you're less likely to get a consistent edge all along the length of the blade.
user 16756
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OP seems convinced he already knows everything I do get a good edge but I definitely find the very tip is usually the least sharp part... Still cuts paper and the likes but not as sharp as the middle and heel... Partially why I'm joining the santoku gang with the TF Denka 180... Ordering direct from TF so I'm thinking I'll get a good one.. He's got nothing to hide behind it's been ordered to be finished like the maboroshi without the ku so he will be making me a nice fresh one says Gaku take a month to make and ship... Buying it in June and I'm thinking it needs a nice pal in a good stone and maybe a custom handle... Well if I can find a bloody UK handle guy!
nakiriknaifuwaifu
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0.02 x 4 = 0.08 + Tax incoming
TF AS sharpens like a dream - it's been a while since I've needed to take it down below 3k, and touch ups take me <5 mins. If that's the suehiro 3k/8k setup with the tan/yellow ouka 3k stone (my favorite mid grit) you're chilling if you're on top of maintenance. All bets are off if it's some cheapo chinese stone tho.
He already has a 3k, what good would a 4k do for him?
Coarse stones are mostly garbage unless you need to use them a lot and really prefer stones, +1 for sandpaper. If he just needs to necromance an edge back from the dead from time to time his flattening plate should do the trick. Although, an SG500 => 3k => 8k progression would be nice.
Plus, OP shouldn't be letting their edge get this dull IMO. Or their sharpening technique is inefficient.
Arashiyama is nice for polishing stainless clad knives. I don't like resinoid soakers due to the cracking risk. OP - Don't worry about using JNAT dust in stones - it's probably a marketing gimmick. If you want a koppa, just pick one up from JNS.
TF AS sharpens like a dream - it's been a while since I've needed to take it down below 3k, and touch ups take me <5 mins. If that's the suehiro 3k/8k setup with the tan/yellow ouka 3k stone (my favorite mid grit) you're chilling if you're on top of maintenance. All bets are off if it's some cheapo chinese stone tho.
He already has a 3k, what good would a 4k do for him?
Coarse stones are mostly garbage unless you need to use them a lot and really prefer stones, +1 for sandpaper. If he just needs to necromance an edge back from the dead from time to time his flattening plate should do the trick. Although, an SG500 => 3k => 8k progression would be nice.
Plus, OP shouldn't be letting their edge get this dull IMO. Or their sharpening technique is inefficient.
Arashiyama is nice for polishing stainless clad knives. I don't like resinoid soakers due to the cracking risk. OP - Don't worry about using JNAT dust in stones - it's probably a marketing gimmick. If you want a koppa, just pick one up from JNS.
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The wustoff I'm not sure where its made but it's blue on the 3k and white on the 8k seems quite gritty on 8k though in use.. I haven't needed a lower grit stone in the 6-7 years I've been sharpening but I don't beat the knives or chip them and they're still printer paper sharp when I resharpen them... My master sharpened his knives every single day I go every day a stripping on the slate and a proper sharpen maybe every 6 weeks... I have things to learn and I know that however I do achieve results and I'm taking on board what everyone's saying.. More than one way of doing everything at the end of the day and I'm looking to improve my skill set part of that being with new stones.. As I'm after as good an edge as I can get with the TF once it's here. The work I do mainly is cutting up fish, meat and softer veg but I also task my knives to cutting bread, apples, harder veg
user 16756
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you know it's really weird but I feel like all good steel "sharpens like a dream" when you have the proper equipment and technique (the OP has neither, btw), unless we're talking about ultra wear resistant steels like k390.
course stones are bad? "dont let your edge get dull" as a substitute for being fully equipped to deal with the problem? I strongly disagree with these premises.
but if there's one thing I will say is that this thread is not helping my bias about the sort of people who are into TF knives.
nakiriknaifuwaifu
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You don't need a coarse stone to sharpen an edge for regular maintenance. Usually, you need a coarse stone to cut a new bevel.
If you don't need to do that often, and you don't thin often, my view is that you're better off buying a few sheets of nice sandpaper for $10 or just using an atoma to cut the bevel before moving up in grit.
Sandpaper costs less and doesn't dish either, which is why I like it a lot better than coarse stones.
Secondly, letting the knife get incredibly dull and then having to bring it back on coarse stones sounds inefficient to me. I think OP would save steel and time if he maintained his edge more regularly - plus he'd have a sharper edge in his hands.
This is what I call a knife that needs to be sharpened I don't know what tc is doing with his blade perhaps using them as an axe but I take care of mine and haven't needed a lower grit this knife hasn't been sharpened in 5 weeks it's used daily and only stopped 10 times each side daily on slate... Tonight I will be sharpening it as I find it to have dulled below where I like it to be and I will give what Ian said a lot of thought when I sharpen it and instead of counting strokes go with feel and check for a burr to be equal I'm here to learn I don't know how tc can't seem to see that I'm saying what I do and when I do it as to hear how I can add or change what I do myself as to how I was trained. Never the less I'll be sharpening this knife later and I will take into my thoughts everything Ian has said and I appreciate his time and his knowledge. I also thank you for letting me know your luck and experience with the TF and stone grit
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I'm not sure why it's not playing but my knife dull push cuts magazine paper I never let it dull down to the point it needs restoration... Uploaded it on YouTube.. This to me is dulled and its what I would normally spend half an hour to 45 minutes bringing back up to scratch.
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In that case, you're probably removing way more steel than you need to if you're spending 30 min on it. Also, problems at the heel and tip are exactly one problem that is likely to arise with your method. If you actually pay attention to raising a burr that's even along the entire edge, you will not have this problem, because if you notice there's no burr at the tip, you'll then correct it.
FWIW, I strongly prefer the feedback of coarse stones to sandpaper at the mid-coarse grit. Sandpaper's great for sub 200 grit when you're just trying to remove a lot of steel fast and don't care about feedback or anything.
Edit: I suggested the two 4k's because the whole reason for the OP's post is that he wants to make sure he has a killer edge on his gyutos and is concerned his Wusthof stone isn't good enough. I don't know anything about the Wusthof stone, but I know that those 4ks are great.
See that's what I'm here for I never got told anything about the burr off my master I knew it was there but never got told to feel for it he always just said repetition keeping it equal and tbh he goes 100-80-60-40-20-10 on his own crazy bastard push cuts silk
I have a nice range I like to sit in with mine which perhaps is still sharpening too much because I have had other chefs cut something with a knife I have that I thinks too dull to my liking and they have said to me it's sharp enough to split hairs... At the end of the day we all like what we like sharpness wise but definitely thank you for your feedback I'll have a good feel for a burr to be equal throughout the blade this time 
Sounds like a rounded edge, not over polished.
