Which knife to get?

[Sas]

So I’m looking for my first japanese chef knife.
I bought the tsunehisa/ikazuchi/tose icha/akifusa OEM AS Migaki recently but I don’t think it cuts that well, surprisingly, as many people recommended it.
It has significant wedging in even thin carrots, and where with a German knife I comfortably force the knife through, with the thin gyuto I am not.
I am considering to buy another knife and return this one, with the takamura being an option. I fear that something that lasery might give me the same discomfort in case it wedges though, but if it doesn’t wedge that would be perfect. Otherwise what kind of knife should I get? Is there a thing like a midgrjnd/workhorse that’s still as thin behind the edge that it cuts like butter and doesn’t wedge? Help!
(Ps my budget is <200,- in Europe)

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

First, I would recommend you copy/paste this in:

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/new-knife-questionnaire.63548/

Second, Munetoshi.

 

[M1k3]

So I’m looking for my first japanese chef knife.
I bought the tsunehisa/ikazuchi/tose icha/akifusa OEM AS Migaki recently but I don’t think it cuts that well, surprisingly, as many people recommended it.
It has significant wedging in even thin carrots, and where with a German knife I comfortably force the knife through, with the thin gyuto I am not.
I am considering to buy another knife and return this one, with the takamura being an option. I fear that something that lasery might give me the same discomfort in case it wedges though, but if it doesn’t wedge that would be perfect. Otherwise what kind of knife should I get? Is there a thing like a midgrjnd/workhorse that’s still as thin behind the edge that it cuts like butter and doesn’t wedge? Help!
(Ps my budget is <200,- in Europe)

I had one of those AS knives. Mine cut ok. I convexed the bevels and it cut much better.

 

[Uncle Danny]

First, I would recommend you copy/paste this in:

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/new-knife-questionnaire.63548/

Second, Munetoshi.

And it’s on sale on JNS. Next

 

[Delat]

Yoshikane, Myojin, and Wakui (regular, not the workhorse version) for knives that ghost through carrots. I’ve heard similar things about Takamura and Kyohei Shindo but have never tried them.

You can see the Yoshi, Myojin, and Wakui along with some Westerns in action against some huge carrots here.

 

[Benuser]

I had one of those AS knives. Mine cut ok. I convexed the bevels and it cut much better.

Hard to judge a knife without at least a first sharpening. Quite often a bit more work is needed: easing shoulders, some thinning, getting rid of a microbevel perhaps. Factory edges are unpredictable. Wedging can very well be caused by a remaining burr. Of course, you must be prepared to abandon the return option.

 

[Sas]

Hard to judge a knife without at least a first sharpening. Quite often a bit more work is needed: easing shoulders, some thinning, getting rid of a microbevel perhaps. Factory edges are unpredictable. Wedging can very well be caused by a remaining burr. Of course, you must be prepared to abandon the return option.

I see. The problem is I am completely new to sharpening and on a low budget. Therefore I prefer to have a knife that cuts very well ootb, since I don’t have the skills or stones to improve one yet myself.
For example, what does m1k3 mean when he says to convex the bevel? Is that the are behind the edge?
Also, any thoughts on the cutting performance of the munetoshi vs the knife I posted?

 

[MrHiggins]

So I’m looking for my first japanese chef knife.
I bought the tsunehisa/ikazuchi/tose icha/akifusa OEM AS Migaki recently but I don’t think it cuts that well, surprisingly, as many people recommended it.
It has significant wedging in even thin carrots, and where with a German knife I comfortably force the knife through, with the thin gyuto I am not.
I am considering to buy another knife and return this one, with the takamura being an option. I fear that something that lasery might give me the same discomfort in case it wedges though, but if it doesn’t wedge that would be perfect. Otherwise what kind of knife should I get? Is there a thing like a midgrjnd/workhorse that’s still as thin behind the edge that it cuts like butter and doesn’t wedge? Help!
(Ps my budget is <200,- in Europe)

I'm not doubting that your knife isn't stellar or that its grind could be chonky. However...this may also be a technique issue. (If I bought the greatest golf clubs ever made, I still couldn't score in the 70s because my technique is abysmal).

From reading what you wrote above, you may be too timid when it comes to cutting. Once you get more comfortable with your Japanese knife (whichever you end up with), practice and get comfortable with the knife I bet you'll enjoy it a lot more.

As for me, I'll be at the driving range working on my swing!

 

[Sas]

I'm not doubting that your knife isn't stellar or that its grind could be chonky. However...this may also be a technique issue. (If I bought the greatest golf clubs ever made, I still couldn't score in the 70s because my technique is abysmal).

From reading what you wrote above, you may be too timid when it comes to cutting. Once you get more comfortable with your Japanese knife (whichever you end up with), practice and get comfortable with the knife I bet you'll enjoy it a lot more.

As for me, I'll be at the driving range working on my swing!

Timid as I’m not slicing fast enough? Would it help to upload a video?

 

[MrHiggins]

Timid as I’m not slicing fast enough? Would it help to upload a video?

Couldn't hurt (unless you cut yourself in the process).

I used the word timid because I think a lot of times people who first use Japanese knives are scared of 1) cutting themselves and 2) breaking the knife. It's rational because both things could happen, but it leads to hesitancy. Quick and confident moves (done correctly) will result in easier cuts. It's all about learning and practicing.

 

[Sas]

Couldn't hurt (unless you cut yourself in the process).

I used the word timid because I think a lot of times people who first use Japanese knives are scared of 1) cutting themselves and 2) breaking the knife. It's rational because both things could happen, but it leads to hesitancy. Quick and confident moves (done correctly) will result in easier cuts. It's all about learning and practicing.

I doubt that was the problem since I am quite experienced (have worked many years professionally) but I will definitely have it in mind on my next carrots

 

[MrHiggins]

I doubt that was the problem since I am quite experienced (have worked many years professionally) but I will definitely have it in mind on my next carrots

Fair enough! I stand by my comments that technique matters, but that may not be your problem based on your experience. Sounds like you got a chonky grind problem.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Timid as I’m not slicing fast enough? Would it help to upload a video?

Yes a video would be good.

I've had two Tsunehisa, still have one of them. They aren't stellar but not terrible either. They're a touch thick by our standards but a definite improvement over German fare. Some cracking sound when cutting carrots isn't the end of the world. It really does matter how bad it is.

Personally, I think you're going about this wrong. The less money you have, the more important sharpening becomes. You want the ability and tools to make most anything work for you. There's cheap carbons out there that you could keep tuned for a long time. Geometry cuts, but they have to be sharp to get it started. You could spend $1000 on a knife that whispers through everything it sees, but sooner or later it will need to be sharpened.

I'm not saying you have to tolerate an ill performing knife if that is indeed what you have, but again, there's a lot you can do as well.

These places will have inexpensive offerings that cut well and you can learn on:

https://withknives.com/

https://knifejapan.com/

But I'd only advocate doing that, after you have a couple good stones or save up for a guided system.

Did you try knocking the shoulders off your other knives like you asked about in another thread?

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Have a read here:

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/what-started-the-workhorse-craze.70762/post-1091626


https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/what-started-the-workhorse-craze.70762/post-1092347

 

[Delat]

I see. The problem is I am completely new to sharpening and on a low budget. Therefore I prefer to have a knife that cuts very well ootb, since I don’t have the skills or stones to improve one yet myself.
For example, what does m1k3 mean when he says to convex the bevel? Is that the are behind the edge?
Also, any thoughts on the cutting performance of the munetoshi vs the knife I posted?

Convexing the bevel typically means rounding off the shoulder where your edge bevel meets the rest of the blade. The degree to which you round that shoulder area is where the term can blend into thinning or creating a back bevel.

Here’s a knife where I did some easing of the shoulder, but a little bit aggressively so it was more of a very mild thinning BTE. Compare the shiny edge in the first photo, to the shiny edge in the 2nd photo and you’ll see where I worked the shoulder and smoothed the transition up into the blade road. This tiny change made a significant improvement in performance, although possibly with a slight hit to toughness.

The original edge bevel was greater than 15 dps. I cut a fresh bevel at around 12 dps, then laid the knife nearly flat to hit behind the edge lightly at around 5 dps; not enough to form a new edge, just enough to remove a bit of metal BTE. This is probably considered more of a back bevel as I kept my angle constant. If I rocked the spine of the blade up and down while thinning to blend into apex with some curvature, that would be more in line with the term “convexing the bevel”.

I’d recommend giving something like this a try - it’s maybe 10-15 minutes work on a coarse stone and it’s an easy entree into thinning. Do a little and if the knife seems better, then do a little more. And before you know it you’ll be comfortable with thinning to your personal preference.

 

[Delat]

Sorry I missed the part where you have the option to return the knife. If I were in your shoes with this being my first j-knife ever and no sharpening experience then I’d probably return it.

If you go that route, create another post with the questionnaire and we’ll guide you towards a laser or whatever specific characteristics you’re looking for.

And oh yeah, check this one out. I’ve never tried Knot Handcrafted but based on his reputation here, I’d swap a Tsunehisa for this in a heartbeat.

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/52100-240mm-laser-gyuto.70796/#post-1092283

 

[M1k3]

I see. The problem is I am completely new to sharpening and on a low budget. Therefore I prefer to have a knife that cuts very well ootb, since I don’t have the skills or stones to improve one yet myself.
For example, what does m1k3 mean when he says to convex the bevel? Is that the are behind the edge?
Also, any thoughts on the cutting performance of the munetoshi vs the knife I posted?

On my example, the bevels had a very slight concave part above the cutting edge. Directly behind the edge was slightly thick. The combination created a slight suction effect, causing an increase in cutting force and mediocre food release. It wasn't a crappy or very poor performing knife. Just one that needed a little work to really shine.

On the other hand, my Munetoshi cut great without any work. Just needed to smooth some slightly sharp/uncomfortable edges.

 

[Benuser]

For example, what does m1k3 mean when he says to convex the bevel? Is that the are behind the edge?
Also, any thoughts on the cutting performance of the munetoshi vs the knife I posted?

Make sure the face and bevel flush. Yes, for that you'll will ease the shoulder, i.e. where bevel and face meet.

Increase the angle of the last part of the bevel, and you have a convex one.
Ask Maksim to give it an initial stone sharpening — I believe he already does.

 

[Sas]

Yes a video would be good.

I've had two Tsunehisa, still have one of them. They aren't stellar but not terrible either. They're a touch thick by our standards but a definite improvement over German fare. Some cracking sound when cutting carrots isn't the end of the world. It really does matter how bad it is.

Personally, I think you're going about this wrong. The less money you have, the more important sharpening becomes. You want the ability and tools to make most anything work for you. There's cheap carbons out there that you could keep tuned for a long time. Geometry cuts, but they have to be sharp to get it started. You could spend $1000 on a knife that whispers through everything it sees, but sooner or later it will need to be sharpened.

I'm not saying you have to tolerate an ill performing knife if that is indeed what you have, but again, there's a lot you can do as well.

These places will have inexpensive offerings that cut well and you can learn on:

https://withknives.com/

https://knifejapan.com/

But I'd only advocate doing that, after you have a couple good stones or save up for a guided system.

Did you try knocking the shoulders off your other knives like you asked about in another thread?

I I’m in the process of thinning one of them

Yes a video would be good.

I've had two Tsunehisa, still have one of them. They aren't stellar but not terrible either. They're a touch thick by our standards but a definite improvement over German fare. Some cracking sound when cutting carrots isn't the end of the world. It really does matter how bad it is.

Personally, I think you're going about this wrong. The less money you have, the more important sharpening becomes. You want the ability and tools to make most anything work for you. There's cheap carbons out there that you could keep tuned for a long time. Geometry cuts, but they have to be sharp to get it started. You could spend $1000 on a knife that whispers through everything it sees, but sooner or later it will need to be sharpened.

I'm not saying you have to tolerate an ill performing knife if that is indeed what you have, but again, there's a lot you can do as well.

These places will have inexpensive offerings that cut well and you can learn on:

https://withknives.com/

https://knifejapan.com/

But I'd only advocate doing that, after you have a couple good stones or save up for a guided system.

Did you try knocking the shoulders off your other knives like you asked about in another thread?

Yeah I really don’t care about any sound, but the knife kind of gets stuck in the carrot.

Yeah I used some cheap diamond plates to thin one of them quite a bit, and put a new edge on it and cuts a lot a lot better, not too far off from the j knife which to me was pretty damning on the tsunehisa, like if I, a complete novice, could improve a knife to get close to that tsu, then I cannot cut very well lol. although I thing my angle of the edge was too low so after a day it lost a lot of sharpness/bite, but it still cuts well. I wonder if I should put a small microbevel at a higher angle or if my entire edge should just be a higher angle.

 

[Benuser]

Perhaps the poor edge retention has more to do with a remaining burr.

 

[Sas]

Perhaps the poor edge retention has more to do with a remaining burr.

Very very possible, I very likely did not fully remove it

 

[Sas]

Have a read here:

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/what-started-the-workhorse-craze.70762/post-1091626


https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/what-started-the-workhorse-craze.70762/post-1092347

I was reading this thread today anyways and makes me feel like I don’t want a laser, and that I would like a nicely tapered blade.
Do y’all think I could basically reprofile a German knife with just stones to have more distal taper and be thin bte or is that really a belt grinder job

 

[Sas]

Sorry I missed the part where you have the option to return the knife. If I were in your shoes with this being my first j-knife ever and no sharpening experience then I’d probably return it.

If you go that route, create another post with the questionnaire and we’ll guide you towards a laser or whatever specific characteristics you’re looking for.

And oh yeah, check this one out. I’ve never tried Knot Handcrafted but based on his reputation here, I’d swap a Tsunehisa for this in a heartbeat.

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/52100-240mm-laser-gyuto.70796/#post-1092283

With taxes and shipping this is still a bit over budged but thanks for the rec though

I did create a new post with the questionnaire!

 

[Sas]

Make sure the face and bevel flush. Yes, for that you'll will ease the shoulder, i.e. where bevel and face meet.View attachment 308785
Increase the angle of the last part of the bevel, and you have a convex one.
Ask Maksim to give it an initial stone sharpening — I believe he already does.

Who is maksim? I bought the knife at meesterslijpers

 

[Sas]

Who is maksim? I bought the knife at meesterslijpers

A reason I’m returning it is also the smell of the handle

 

[bill_zeng]

200 US dollars or euros is a very good price. You can buy a sufficiently good quality kitchen knife.If you care a lot about the feel when cutting carrots.I suggest buying a thin kitchen knife.Thickness within 1.8mm or less. takamura SG2 gyuto It's a great choice because it's thin enough.
Many handmade knives have thicker blades.There might be a cracking sound while cutting carrots.You can thin the blade yourself by sharpening it, or you can directly buy a thin knife to solve the problem.

 

[Sas]

200 US dollars or euros is a very good price. You can buy a sufficiently good quality kitchen knife.If you care a lot about the feel when cutting carrots.I suggest buying a thin kitchen knife.Thickness within 1.8mm or less. takamura SG2 gyuto It's a great choice because it's thin enough.
Many handmade knives have thicker blades.There might be a cracking sound while cutting carrots.You can thin the blade yourself by sharpening it, or you can directly buy a thin knife to solve the problem.View attachment 311271View attachment 311272

I don’t care about cracking I just don’t want the knife to get stuck, I have returned one that’s a laser but got stuck

 

[Sas]

I don’t care about cracking I just don’t want the knife to get stuck, I have returned one that’s a laser but got stuck

I like the idea of a workhorse