Why honing rods DON'T WORK - a video

[captaincaed]

Now that you've clicked my clickbait...

edit: why honing rods don't work in some situations.

Honing rods are good for some softer steels or edges with a thicker geometry, but can be totally useless in restoring fine edges with very hard steel.

Here's a vid for people who are new to Japanese knives, hard steel, and fine edges. Video proof, as they say.

Credit to the knifemaker. Poorly heat-treated steel would not stand up to what I'm doing in this video, it would chip and break. The fact that it deflects without breaking is a testament to good understanding of the heat treat. I used a fine edge for a hard task, which is why the edge rolled. I should have chosen a knife with a more robust edge.

 

[captaincaed]

Don Nguyen said it best - watch the first 15 seconds

 

[stringer]

I will have to watch this again in the morning with sound but so far your argument is unconvincing.

 

[captaincaed]

I would love to get a conversation going.

Sometimes the best way to learn something on the internet is lead by saying something wrong, and I may have done that.

 

[Eloh]

Another newsflash: honing rods don't work to repair chips either

 

[captaincaed]

Another newsflash: honing rods don't work to repair chips either

Stop, now you're just making things up

 

[Jason183]

So far I only found the honing Rod works better for knives under 60HRC( Misono UX10 and Fujiwara FKM that I sold) Especially on those chip resistance steel.

I’m kinda curious to find out if it works good on 61 HRC AEB-L or no

 

[stringer]

I would love to get a conversation going.

Sometimes the best way to learn something on the internet is lead by saying something wrong, and I may have done that.

I'm not really joking about the sound. I'll have to watch it in the morning. Everybody's asleep. So I have zero idea what you said lol. I'll check it out in the morning. Here's my thoughts on the subject from a few years ago. Apologies if you've already seen it

 

[captaincaed]

Of everyone on this forum, I trust 2, maybe 3 people when it comes to sharpening, and you're one of them. For the work you're talking about, I agree 100%. Ceramic is hard enough to cut most kitchen knife steel, and leave a good working edge.

I think the main reason they're discouraged in regular use is due to creating the "Wusthof frown" near the heel. For touch ups, they're brilliant.

Many retailers and makers I've spoken with discourage steels, and even ceramic hones, but never really say why. I wanted to present a specific case where it really does you no good.

Can't wait to hear what you have to say when you can have audio.

 

[Eloh]

Honing rods obviously do work successfully for millions of people everyday...
They work better and longer the tougher/softer the steel. The more brittle the steel the more likely you will damage the edge, when you are not careful.
Rule of thumb is below 60hrc works well with a honing rod for extended periods of time. It also works as a touch up for harder steels but depending on the steel either not nearly as long or with a risk of damaging your edge. I refresh the edge of a 63hrc aebl knife and a 62hrc 52100 with a dick micro wich works pretty well,. From my experience your typical ht Shirogami at that hardness tends to be more brittle for example


Edit: You also have to differentiate between different types of honing rods and how, when and in combination with wich stone you want to use one etc

 

[panda]

I've been using Mac black ceramic on every one of my knives, even honyaki. it's all about technique.

I've gone a month without sharpening miz ks with use of it.

 

[Marek07]

Haven't tried an Idahone but I have an Ikea ceramic as well as the MAC Black. My favourite non-stone method of restoring a working edge remains the Sieger Long-life sintered ruby. I don't work in a kitchen so my viewpoint is skewed but a gentle touch up on the Sieger does the trick without having to pull out stones. Extra benefit - they are quite good at finding faults with your edge too... which only stone/s will fix.

 

[Carl Kotte]

I hone therefore I cut.

 

[ModRQC]

Own the hone or it will own you.

If ever at me a Wusthof frowns, it's hone, baby!

Don't have anything pertinent to say though. Used a Victo smooth rod on Ginsan and AEB-L a few times without problems - or should I rather say, with good effect. My friend who bought my former VG-10 and White #1 knives uses ceramic rods on them - seems content to avoid stones any chance he gets. But since I'm mostly looking for reasons to bring the stones out any chance I get... I've not established any permanent system with hones.

 

[stringer]

A ceramic honing rod is just a cylindrical shaped whetstone. They make really coarse ones up to about 2k. After years of use they get further burnished if you let them and then they don't cut as fast, but they are very gentle on edges. Of course a nice flat rectangular sized whetstone is preferable. But it's not always practical. And in the hands of someone with a lot of practice the results are undeniable. I've got knives up to about 64 HRC. Feather touch on a very thin behind the edge you can create a new micro bevel with minimal burr in literally seconds with a ceramic hone.


The primary reason knife retailers don't recommend it is that in the time it takes you to practice and get good you can mess up your knife. But this is the same for any sharpening technique.
The second reason is because ceramic hones are like an emergency tracheotomy. The first one will help keep you breathing for a bit. But more than once will quickly lead to diminishing returns.

Hypothetically, after your first touch up with the rod you get back to 60 percent of your normal working sharpness. And your edge is slightly less stable and slightly thicker. Work for a few more hours, do it again. You only get back to 45 percent sharpness and your edge is further destabilized, but that might be enough to get you to the end of the shift. But if you do this everyday for months and rely on it like a crutch then you will develop heel frown and thickness behind the edge and in extreme cases a bunch of microchips and a wavy apex and all sorts of other bad stuff.

For home users, I don't think it's really necessary to use ceramic hones. For me at home I have moved past the ceramic hone. I keep a little block of soft arkansas in my knife drawer. I do in hand touchups with it. But they definitely have their purpose and you should be under no delusions that what you are doing with a ceramic hone is "straighening" the edge. You are abrading steel in a highly focused place to get you that little bit of sharpness you need to finish the project at hand.

And one last thought. If your knife isn't already well maintained then the ceramic hone would really be of very little benefit to you one way or the other.

 

[ModRQC]

A ceramic honing rod is just a cylindrical shaped whetstone. They make really coarse ones up to about 2k. After years of use they get further burnished if you let them and then they don't cut as fast, but they are very gentle on edges. Of course a nice flat rectangular sized whetstone is preferable. But it's not practical. And in the hands of someone with a lot of practice the results are undeniable. I've got knives up to about 64 HRC. Feather touch on a very thin behind the edge you can create a new micro bevel with minimal burr in literally seconds with a ceramic hone.


The primary reason knife retailers don't recommend it is that in the time it takes you to practice and get good you can mess up your knife. But this is the same for any sharpening technique.
The second reason is because ceramic hones are like an emergency tracheotomy. The first one will help keep you breathing for a bit. But more than once will quickly lead to diminishing returns.

Hypothetically, after your first touch up with the rod you get back to 60 percent of your normal working sharpness. And your edge is slightly less stable and slightly thicker. Work for a few more hours, do it again. You only get back to 45 percent sharpness and your edge is further destabilized, but that might be enough to get you to the end of the shift. But if you do this everyday for months and rely on it like a crutch then you will develop heel frown and thickness behind the edge and in extreme cases a bunch of microchips and a wavy apex and all sorts of other bad stuff.

For home users, I don't think it's really necessary to use ceramic hones. For me at home I have moved past the ceramic hone. I keep a little block of soft arkansas in my knife drawer. I do in hand touchups with it. But they definitely have their purpose and you should be under no delusions that what you are doing with a ceramic hone is "straighening" the edge. You are abrading steel in a highly focused place to get you that little bit of sharpness you need to finish the project at hand.

And one last thought. If your knife isn't already well maintained then the ceramic hone would really be of very little benefit to you one way or the other.

And that's basically why I never set up any system using them regularly. The ceramic rods my friend uses are actually mine - lent to him when he bought the knives and told him to use them until he would be sure if he wanted to buy one. If he does, hell I'll sell both to him for the price of one and keep my smooth rod. It's all I need really for little use I make of these - softer steels, mostly looking to align and burnish the apex some of knives not really fun to sharpen as to delay the inevitable - say Victo fibrox petty.

 

[ian]

But they definitely have their purpose and you should be under no delusions that what you are doing with a ceramic hone is "straighening" the edge.

 

[stringer]

I'm not as familiar with the sintered ruby and fancier ones. And for softer steels I actually prefer something more aggressive than ceramic like one of those diamond coated ones and then a smooth metal one.

At my old job when we had huge banquets with a bunch of carving stations I would refresh everyone's carving knives with this method. Cut a quick and dirty new apex on each knife with the diamond coated steel. Then hit a ceramic/metal steel to diminish the burr raised by the diamond steel. Then a couple of quick strops on pasted leather. Give each carver a regular old fashioned smooth steel and they can keep their carving knife very sharp all night long.

 

[captaincaed]

I feel like many people read the title, didn't watch the video, then reaction posted.

I did like these comments though.

The second reason is because ceramic hones are like an emergency tracheotomy.

This is a dark metaphor. I love it.

you should be under no delusions that what you are doing with a ceramic hone is "straighening" the edge. You are abrading steel in a highly focused place to get you that little bit of sharpness you need to finish the project at hand.

This is what I was getting at.

I will still argue that for the edge the maker intended, the hone is not a good option here. It would put a slightly different type of edge on. And that may be what the user needs. Enough to make it through service if that's what you need, but it's not "restoring" or "straightening", which are words commonly used in marketing. You really are cutting a new edge, and you're not aligning it super well either. The stone is better at keeping your edge in a straight line (although good technique with a hone means your edge is still very good).

 

[captaincaed]

Also if I had done edge leading strokes, I'm pretty sure I would have pinched that rolled edge over, making the situation worse. Maybe I'd have abraded through it, but I would have had a dull section regardless.

 

[stringer]

Also if I had done edge leading strokes, I'm pretty sure I would have pinched that rolled edge over, making the situation worse. Maybe I'd have abraded through it, but I would have had a dull section regardless.

This is exactly right. If a j-knife or other 60+ hard steel "rolls" you can't just "straighten it out" like a Wusthof. If you try to bend it back it most likely will tear off leaving a jagged edge. Smooth steel won't do much at all leaving the dull folded edge. Ceramic rod will abrade the rolled edge and you could abrade all the way through it but it's not a very good tool for the job. It's best for just cleaning an apex and creating a new micro bevel in between sharpening sessions when an edge just needs a little pick me up.

 

[captaincaed]

For the record I adopted your soft ark trick. Love it.

 

[DavidPF]

@captaincaed (and everyone else):

You've done some serious magic here... Far too many threads (not just on KKF, anywhere) sound like they're going to be great, and then are filled with BS. This time, just like you said in the OP, I took the bait and clicked on your title thinking it sounded misguided - and found out a bunch of stuff I had always wanted to know, and an ultra-ultra-low BS ratio. Thanks!

 

[cotedupy]

^ What @DavidPF said.

Interesting thread on something I know nothing about, and doesn't often get talked about here.

And wouldn't just the whole internet (world) be a better place if we all always took this approach to listening to other people's opinions!

"Sometimes the best way to learn something on the internet is lead by saying something wrong, and I may have done that."

 

[captaincaed]

Hey thank you both for the kind words. Thanks also to Stringer for playing along. I definitely perk up my ears whenever he takes time to write.

I love what I've learned here! Hope there is still more to do.

 

[demirtasem]

This is exactly right. If a j-knife or other 60+ hard steel "rolls" you can't just "straighten it out" like a Wusthof. If you try to bend it back it most likely will tear off leaving a jagged edge. Smooth steel won't do much at all leaving the dull folded edge. Ceramic rod will abrade the rolled edge and you could abrade all the way through it but it's not a very good tool for the job. It's best for just cleaning an apex and creating a new micro bevel in between sharpening sessions when an edge just needs a little pick me up.

What about stropping on leather strop? (with or without compound) Would it be a better substitute of rod? Or carrying/stropping on a whetstone is the ultimate solution for honing?

Edit: I’m asking for pro kitchen usage.

 

[tgfencer]

What about stropping on leather strop? (with or without compound) Would it be a better substitute of rod? Or carrying/stropping on a whetstone is the ultimate solution for honing?

Edit: I’m asking for pro kitchen usage.

Depends on what you do in the kitchen and what kind of time you have to sharpen/hone.

For instance, I'm a butcher and I use steels when my knife is covered in blood and fat because, while I keep some stones/various strops at work, I'd have to 1) wash my knife/hands, 2) sharpen my knife, 3) wash my hands, knife, and work surface, 4) go back to cutting. It's just not practical to do mid-shift. But, if my edge is dull at the start of a shift, I'll bust out stones and get dirty so that I have a fresh edge for the upcoming day's work.

Everything has it's place and time, you just need to figure out how your preferred sharpening mediums fit into your schedule and/or how you can orient your schedule in order to use what works best for you. There's no one-fits-all solution.

 

[ian]

What about stropping on leather strop? (with or without compound) Would it be a better substitute of rod? Or carrying a whetstone is the ultimate solution for honing?

Strops can help you keep your edge fresh, but for the most part I think they refine your edge too much for kitchen work. I do strop on cereal box cardboard once in a while, which is coarser, but mostly I just use that for deburring after stones. I only cook at home, though, so there’s no time pressure like tgfencer is describing.

 

[stringer]

What about stropping on leather strop? (with or without compound) Would it be a better substitute of rod? Or carrying/stropping on a whetstone is the ultimate solution for honing?

Edit: I’m asking for pro kitchen usage.

Is there an all of the above? I like different stuff for different situations and it depends on whether you are just caring for your own stuff or you have to deal with other people's less than stellarly maintained knives.

Here's my work kit:
Dished out 500 Shapton Glass on last legs
Shapton Pro 1000
Naniwa Superstone 2K
Cheap Diamond Card (like the ones you can get for less than $20 on Amazon)

Paddle strop with bare leather on one side and pasted leather on the other
Small coticule or soft ark for in-hand touchups
Ceramic Rod
Diamond Coated Steel Rod
Smooth Steel Rod

But if I didn't have a good way to store that much crap securely I would go with the soft ark (edit: or ceramic rod) over the leather. I like leather after finishing a sharpening progression but not so much for touchups. I feel it rounds the apex, especially loaded leather. The rod leaves it more jagged and toothy which I find better for keeping a not freshly sharpened knife getting through tomato skins and such.

 

[Nagakin]

Your own rituals will change from place to place too. My most recent kitchen didn't stress about the clock too much and I touched up on a 4000 every morning just to get into "kitchen mode". Some places are so perpetually frantic that a Mac Black is your only option.

I don't use strops much for the reasons mentioned above, but they do have their place. For me, they're essential when I'm presenting large amounts of fruit that might not be eaten right away (or at all...), but needs to stay glossy. Or topping off a stupid amount of dessert. In these cases I will finish on my finest stone and refresh on bare raw equine, my favorite leather for knives.