Yanagi Microbevel - Advice needed

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Klieuless

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Hi all,
Looking for some advice/tips in sharpening my yanagi. Have referenced JKI's YT videos for a lot of my sharpening but still have some trouble getting a sharp edge on this knife.

I currently own a Masamoto KS yanagi. It was shipped to me with a factory microbevel. I have tried my best to maintain that factory edge/ bevel (Maybe not the smartest choice), but didn't realize how dull my knife was, until I used a coworkers yanagi. I mainly use the knife for cutting fish.

I feel that I have to strop and/or sharpen with excessive pressure at an extreme angle (45°+) just to get a slight burr, and the final edge isnt really sharp (edge doesn't catch on my thumbnail). Feels like it dulls rather quickly as well; doesn't last an entire shift.
I have utilized the sharpie method, but I can't touch the cutting edge/microbevel, unless I hold the knife at at extreme angle as referenced above.

I currently have access to the following stones:
#400 cerax
#1000 king deluxe
#5000 suehiro Rika
#6000 king (?)

How should I approach this? Should the cutting edge be ground down on a coarse stone, to shave off enough metal so that I can reach a zero ground bevel via hamaguri sharpening? I'd like to maintain the blade geometry as much as possible.
Any tips/advice would be greatly appreciated.

20210114_023535.jpg20210114_023436.jpg
 
In this pictures I can't see any microbevel. They look as normal cutting edges, not even that small.

What I might think, but this is also a test if I'm thinking right,
You dont sharpen at the angle of your microbevel. You put a new one on when you are done sharpening your normal first bevel.
If you go for a burr on your first bevel (zero grind the first bevel, aka remove the old microbevel, and later put a new microbevel on), or if you quit before you reach the apex, knowing youve done enough to start working on the microbevel, is probably experience/skill. Personally, I would zero grind and then do the microbevel, because i'm not consistent/skilled enough to know otherwise Im ready for it.

When you sharpen your very hairthin microbevel, you will remove way too much metal (due to the high angle) fast and get a blunt edge at a way to high angle.
A microbevel should make it easy to grap into feed (next to making the knive more sturdy), not determine your geometry while cutting. If it gets too big, it will.


Shoot at me guys, Im also cheking my own knowledge here..
 
I've never sharpened a yanagi so take this for what it's worth. But I have sharpened a lot of knives and based on what I'm seeing and your description, I think the problem lies in your definition of a micro bevel.

A true micro bevel should be barley, if at all, visible. It should only take a couple swipes to form and should be at the very apex.

What I advise people who want a micro bevel is to get the knife sharp and deburred first. Make sure you are apexing! Then raise the angle a few degrees and make one or two very light edge-leading strokes on each side and call it good.

If you're stropping with pressure at 45 degrees I have to think you're just rounding the edge.

Again, I know yanagi's/single bevels have unique geometry so I may be completely off base but that's my thoughts. Look forward to reading the more experienced comments.
 
From your photos, the microbevel is no longer micro. Quite wide up the bevel, and probably not very acute.

It'll be a long process to get it back to a zero grind, trust me I've learned this the hard way. So my advice based on my very limited experience would be to try and work on the primary bevel, possibly with some form of hamaguri. Then at the very very end, try to lightly work on the microbevel, and then clean off the slight burr (it'll be very slight) by working on the ura.

Given time, you should be able to get back to a zero grind and proper micro bevel so it stays sharp over the entire shift.
 
Kawa said:
In this pictures I can't see any microbevel. They look as normal cutting edges, not even that small.

What I might think, but this is also a test if I'm thinking right,
You dont sharpen at the angle of your microbevel. You put a new one on when you are done sharpening your normal first bevel.
Click to expand...

This was my exact thought, the 'microbevel' isn't really a microbevel, and became the new cutting edge. The knife was shipped to me this way and I ran with it for a while, I realized I had made a mistake when the knife was getting harder and harder to burr, and I found myself naturally increasing sharpening angle to hit the apex. This was my mistake.

HumbleHomeCook said:
What I advise people who want a micro bevel is to get the knife sharp and deburred first. Make sure you are apexing! Then raise the angle a few degrees and make one or two very light edge-leading strokes on each side and call it good.

If you're stropping with pressure at 45 degrees I have to think you're just rounding the edge.
Click to expand...

I believe the edge to be probably extremely blunt now, which probably explains why the knife feels/actually is dull. With that being said, when I first received the knife, I actually tried hamaguri sharpening to reach a zero-ground bevel and/or hit the apex-- Receiving the knife with a factory 'micro' bevel contributed to my decision to continue building off of said 'bevel'. Front side hamaguri sharpening no longer hits the cutting edge, even with my coarsest stone.

I know you mentioned you've never sharpened a yanagi, but I figured I'd ask anyway; for proper micro-beveling, is lightly stropping ura (back flat side) after doing a few light passes on new microbevel (after apexing/deburr) recommended to remove micro burr?

DHunter86 said:
From your photos, the microbevel is no longer micro. Quite wide up the bevel, and probably not very acute.

It'll be a long process to get it back to a zero grind, trust me I've learned this the hard way. So my advice based on my very limited experience would be to try and work on the primary bevel, possibly with some form of hamaguri. Then at the very very end, try to lightly work on the microbevel, and then clean off the slight burr (it'll be very slight) by working on the ura.

Given time, you should be able to get back to a zero grind and proper micro bevel so it stays sharp over the entire shift.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I've actually been trying to use this approach. I believe the angle of the 'microbevel' on my knife is so steep that I'm having a lot of trouble hitting the apex. I simply can no longer get a burr, unless I use steep angles.

Looking for a suggestion to fix this in the least painful and amount of time required, if possible, lol.

Thanks for your responses, guys.
 
All of my yanagibas came with a dull micro bevel. I recommend getting a gesshin 220 and do a hamaguri sharpening until you get a burr and then move through your progression and then out on a hairline thin microbevel with your finest stone, just as Jon instructs in his videos. Just make sure you use your finest stone on the ura so you dont waste it.
 
Masamoto factory edge micro bevel quite big,suggest you start from coarse stone do a full sharpening, don’t jump to higher stone too early, sharpen hamaguri edge like jon video, before jumping stone check scratch & burr.

Sharpening single bevel is like 90/10. 90 front & 10 uraoshi, only use finest stone for uraoshi sharpening. Masamoto well known for the concave urasuki than the others.
When doing micro bevel, don’t use pressure, only raise angle, but no pressure at all, otherwise you’ll dull your edge again. Micro bevel should be liked a hairline only.

When you go jump to next stone, must be reduce pressure also.

I like to strop on newspaper after finish sharpening.

Yanagiba should be easily to get pop hair sharpness.
 
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adam92 said:
Masamoto factory edge micro bevel quite big,suggest you start from coarse stone do a full sharpening, don’t jump to higher stone too early, sharpen hamaguri edge like jon video, before jumping stone check scratch & burr.

Sharpening single bevel is like 90/10. 90 front & 10 uraoshi, only usefine stone for uraoshi sharpening. When doing micro bevel, don’t use pressure, only raise angle, but no pressure at all, otherwise you’ll dull your edge again. Micro bevel shouls be liked a hairline only.

As you go higher & higher, must reduce pressure also.
Click to expand...
I am sushi chef also, touch up my yanagiba every night on the finest stone to keep razor sharp, single bevel is very easy to sharpen, when doing uraoshi, make sure your thumb putting close to edge.
 
What I (think I) notice is that in the vid above, the micro bevel is almost only a super light deburring stroke, compared to Jon's micro bevel technique in the JKI video where some real (but still minor) grinding is done.

Not sure whether this is really a different technique, or just a different execution because of different steel and single bevel.
 
Klieuless said:
Hi all,
Looking for some advice/tips in sharpening my yanagi. Have referenced JKI's YT videos for a lot of my sharpening but still have some trouble getting a sharp edge on this knife.

I currently own a Masamoto KS yanagi. It was shipped to me with a factory microbevel. I have tried my best to maintain that factory edge/ bevel (Maybe not the smartest choice), but didn't realize how dull my knife was, until I used a coworkers yanagi. I mainly use the knife for cutting fish.

I feel that I have to strop and/or sharpen with excessive pressure at an extreme angle (45°+) just to get a slight burr, and the final edge isnt really sharp (edge doesn't catch on my thumbnail). Feels like it dulls rather quickly as well; doesn't last an entire shift.
I have utilized the sharpie method, but I can't touch the cutting edge/microbevel, unless I hold the knife at at extreme angle as referenced above.

I currently have access to the following stones:
#400 cerax
#1000 king deluxe
#5000 suehiro Rika
#6000 king (?)

How should I approach this? Should the cutting edge be ground down on a coarse stone, to shave off enough metal so that I can reach a zero ground bevel via hamaguri sharpening? I'd like to maintain the blade geometry as much as possible.
Any tips/advice would be greatly appreciated.

View attachment 110027View attachment 110028
Click to expand...
Do you perform Uraoshi Sharpening when you receive the knife??
I think John from JKI explained it perfectly on his single bevel Sharpening videos.

You can achieve 2 type of edge on single bevel which is:
• Hamaguri edge ( clamshell edge, slightly convex) great food release and less brittle.
• Beta Togi edge (flat edge) flat from shinogi line to the cutting edge. Me I put some micro bevel on beta togi edge for longer edge retention and less brittle. I can achieve sharper edge with Beta Togi edge.
 
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I’m going to echo what people have said above - bite the bullet and take it down to a nearly zero bevel on a coarse stone. Ideally coarser than 400, but if that’s what you have, then that’s what it is.

One of the big things to watch for here is that you’re probably going to need to flatten your stone during the process. Yanagi have quite delicate geometry, and the bevel needs to be perfect for it to work.

Also - don’t touch the ura until you’ve either got there, or very nearly. Depending on how much material you remove from the main bevel you may want to touch up the ura on a coarser stone, otherwise you can wait until finer grit sharpening stones. Don’t wait until the very end though; you will have likely raised some kind of coarse burr on it when flattening the other side. It should be removed and refined out with light pressure on a few stones, not just the final one.
 
Yup, flat stone is very important on single bevel Sharpening. Especially when you need to do Uraoshi Sharpening for the first time to get that flat Uraoshi and doesn't scratches the urasuki/ concave side on the back.
 
cotedupy said:
I’m going to echo what people have said above - bite the bullet and take it down to a nearly zero bevel on a coarse stone. Ideally coarser than 400, but if that’s what you have, then that’s what it is.
Click to expand...
OP, keep in mind that getting to near 0 grind on 400 grit might literally take hours and substancial amount of stone. Obviously, depends on how bad the initial grind is.
 
Since you have a 400 grit cerax then you can use it. Or buy a coarse sandpaper and put them flat on your flattest stone and start grinding.

make sure your knife's uraoshi is flat or you will have a hard time getting the sharpness you are looking for
 
Boynutman said:
What I (think I) notice is that in the vid above, the micro bevel is almost only a super light deburring stroke, compared to Jon's micro bevel technique in the JKI video where some real (but still minor) grinding is done.

Not sure whether this is really a different technique, or just a different execution because of different steel and single bevel.
Click to expand...

The way I’ve seen the term microbevel commonly used here is both a high-angle edge-leading deburring stroke which leaves a microscopic bevel, and a true secondary bevel on the main edge bevel.

I sharpen my knives at 15dps which creates a microbevel since all my knives have come with an edge bevel that’s lower. Here’s a zoomed-in shot of the microbevel on a Yu Kurosaki gyuto - the microbevel is the darker line at the very edge, sitting on top of the original (shinier) edge bevel. This was after one or two sharpenings, and could probably go a few more before I chewed up all of the original edge bevel at which point I’d need to drop down to a coarse stone and cut in a new low-angle bevel (with some thinning) and start all over with a fresh microbevel on top of that.

Not sure if any of this applies to a Yanagi since I don’t own one, just answering the specific microbevel question.

F1BCE972-ECA7-4234-A04C-D6FF45797BD8.jpeg


Here’s a zoomed-out photo, you can see the bevel is quite small due to how thin the knife is behind the edge.
0049B459-CEAA-40EC-8152-822EFE101C12.jpeg
 
Bevel created at 15dps would be considered a secondary bevel and a tiny higher angled bevel on top of the secondary bevel will be a microbevel. Technically, you can have a microbevel on your primary bevel as long as its a "0 grind". The main point of a microbevel is to give stability to your very thin cutting edge and be almost non-visible with naked eye, hence its a microbevel.
People who use microbevel to discribe a secondary bevel are doing it wrong, IMHO.
 
Ruso said:
Bevel created at 15dps would be considered a secondary bevel and a tiny higher angled bevel on top of the secondary bevel will be a microbevel. Technically, you can have a microbevel on your primary bevel as long as its a "0 grind". The main point of a microbevel is to give stability to your very thin cutting edge and be almost non-visible with naked eye, hence its a microbevel.
People who use microbevel to discribe a secondary bevel are doing it wrong, IMHO.
Click to expand...

I don’t understand the distinction you’re making. Are you saying 15 dps is too low to meet your definition of a microbevel?

Or are you saying that any secondary bevel not visible to the naked eye is a microbevel? In the photo I have above, the secondary bevel is not visible to the naked eye - that’s an extremely zoomed in photo, and it’s quite difficult to discern even under 10x magnification.
 
Delat said:
I don’t understand the distinction you’re making. Are you saying 15 dps is too low to meet your definition of a microbevel?

Or are you saying that any secondary bevel not visible to the naked eye is a microbevel? In the photo I have above, the secondary bevel is not visible to the naked eye - that’s an extremely zoomed in photo, and it’s quite difficult to discern even under 10x magnification.
Click to expand...
I can clearly see a secondary bevel running all the way alongside your blade till it becomes out of focus around the heel area. Also, it could be just a light reflection thing, however the curve seems to be sharpened at lower angle.

About microbevel, how I see it, and how I saw it referenced in the past. In any case; you are free to your own interpretation. Some ppl see black when others see white.
Microbevel is tiny, high angled bevel. It can be present on both or just one side. Micro bevel is kind of a fix to a problem, if you can avoid it - you should. If you know that your knife can support 15dps per side, but at 13dps you start seeing a chipping, stick to 14-15dps and not 13dps+30-45d microbevel.
When creating a secondary bevel, you should blend both bevels for optimal performance, no need for this with microbevels.
Common use of microbevel is in conjunction with "0-grind". It is one of the few times I see this working well, but again, at this point one can argue that it's a secondary bevel :D. Remember, it wont be 15dps though, more like 30+dps in this scenario. And I think this is the main differential point.
On a freshly sharpened knife, just couple of edge trailing strokes on fine grit stone should suffice to create a microbevel.
 
Delat said:
The way I’ve seen the term microbevel commonly used here is both a high-angle edge-leading deburring stroke which leaves a microscopic bevel, and a true secondary bevel on the main edge bevel.

I sharpen my knives at 15dps which creates a microbevel since all my knives have come with an edge bevel that’s lower. Here’s a zoomed-in shot of the microbevel on a Yu Kurosaki gyuto - the microbevel is the darker line at the very edge, sitting on top of the original (shinier) edge bevel. This was after one or two sharpenings, and could probably go a few more before I chewed up all of the original edge bevel at which point I’d need to drop down to a coarse stone and cut in a new low-angle bevel (with some thinning) and start all over with a fresh microbevel on top of that.

Not sure if any of this applies to a Yanagi since I don’t own one, just answering the specific microbevel question.

View attachment 187050

Here’s a zoomed-out photo, you can see the bevel is quite small due to how thin the knife is behind the edge.
View attachment 187052
Click to expand...

Delat I'm just curious, do you freehand or use a jig system? No judgement in that question at all.
 
HumbleHomeCook said:
Delat I'm just curious, do you freehand or use a jig system? No judgement in that question at all.
Click to expand...
I use an angle measurement tool that magnetically attaches to the blade to show me what angle the blade is at, but otherwise I’m freehanding. I was quite wobbly when I when first started sharpening, but now you can see from that magnified photo I’ve gotten fairly consistent. It makes touchups a lot easier as I just grab my finest stone and hit the exact same angle every time.

I’m hoping at some point, maybe in a few years, the angle will be sufficiently ingrained that I can stop using the gizmo. I only sharpen every 2-3 months so there’s no way I’m getting enough practice to build muscle memory otherwise.
 
Ruso said:
Bevel created at 15dps would be considered a secondary bevel and a tiny higher angled bevel on top of the secondary bevel will be a microbevel. Technically, you can have a microbevel on your primary bevel as long as its a "0 grind". The main point of a microbevel is to give stability to your very thin cutting edge and be almost non-visible with naked eye, hence its a microbevel.
People who use microbevel to discribe a secondary bevel are doing it wrong, IMHO.
Click to expand...
I'd tend to agree. The whole idea of a microbevel is indeed adding stability, while keeping the original geometry.
 
Nemo said:
A question for those who use yanagiba a lot-

Do you maintain the edge with a microbevel or a zero grind (which I guess would be about 15 degrees inclusive)?
Click to expand...
I use yanagiba quite a lot, I said around 500 pieces sashimi plus sushi & nigiri, I maintain the edge with microlevel on my finest stone, just few strop & deburr. probably 1/2 week after I drop grit to 2k/4k depend how the conditions & start sharpening the main bevel.
 
Nemo said:
A question for those who use yanagiba a lot-

Do you maintain the edge with a microbevel or a zero grind (which I guess would be about 15 degrees inclusive)?
Click to expand...


I tend to do Jon's form of hamaguri sharpening, but I don't freehand a microbevel unless I'm having trouble deburring. If I did what he calls 'beta togi', then I would probably microbevel I think.

Though note - while I have quite a few of them, I don't use my yanagi that much, so edge retention is less of consideration for me.
 
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adam92 said:
I use yanagiba quite a lot, I said around 500 pieces sashimi plus sushi & nigiri, I maintain the edge with microlevel on my finest stone, just few strop & deburr. probably 1/2 week after I drop grit to 2k/4k depend how the conditions & start sharpening the main bevel.
Click to expand...
I like this approach. Microbevel around 8k and 40°?
 
Delat said:
The way I’ve seen the term microbevel commonly used here is both a high-angle edge-leading deburring stroke which leaves a microscopic bevel, and a true secondary bevel on the main edge bevel.
Click to expand...
Ruso said:
People who use microbevel to discribe a secondary bevel are doing it wrong, IMHO.
Click to expand...

KKF has been here before 😋

There is confusion about the way it is defined... I think some of that could stem from the difference between single grinds and double grinds?


I wonder if the oft used wisdom that a microbevel 'provides edge stability' is really what is being observed? The action of putting on a microbevel is not dissimilar from some methods of deburring. Could it be that by using microbevels, the user is more likely to remove burrs and foil edges... thus making the edge more 'stable'???
 
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