If you like Roman's videos, check out Big Brown Bear (KKF member @Deadboxhero ) and Michael Christy's channels as well.
Mind numbing cost for the steel.I've been wanting to try vancron sc for a while, but it is very expensive and few people use it.
Yeah, sucks it is so expensive. Should have wear resistance of k390, vanadis 8 class, but higher toughness, smaller carbonitrides and with the hardness you and Roman are getting edge stability should be amazing.Mind numbing cost for the steel.
The added Nitriding of the powder before HIP sky rockets the cost but is the way to get past the nitrogen limit and also get the ultra fine Vanadium Carbonitrides.
It unfortunately will always be a rare steel for knives.
I am not sure if you refer to the 5 nanometer edge or Vancron Superclean as a steel- but I think you made an universally true statement that applies to every well heat treated, high quality steel knife. In fact, it is a proven statement - in the following video, a fine edge was compared to the coarse edge showed in the first video I linked. It did so much better:On the downside, Without super accurate sharpening the benefit is really not that big though.
Either a guided system or very very good sharpening skills, yes. On a good day, I can get the same edge retention with freehand sharpening like I can with my Wicked Edge. But it took me 7 years of very frequent practice to get there. Definitely not for everyone. So it's great that nowadays, decent guided sharpening systems can be bought for less than 100Euros or USD/Swiss Francs. (This doesn't apply to scandi to zero edges of course.)It was more of a general statement, yes.
In the German kitchen knife community there has been a lot of quantitative testing with different sharpening methods and different steels. The conclusion was the same as yours.
To really exploit the full potential of these steels a good guided system is almost mandatory.
Was it ever determined what the mechanism behind these claims is? Once the correct abrasive is used and if the edge is formed and is fully deburred, what else comes into play when we talk about precision and noticeable differences among steels? Guided systems allow better angle control and possibly better pressure control, is there anything else that prevents free hand sharpening from exploiting high wear resistance steels? It seems reasonable that if the same person sharpened two steels that were very different in the edge holding potential in the same way, assuming good sharpening in both cases (correct abrasives, no wire edge, etc) that there would be a significant difference between these two steels. In other words, it sounds like there is a difference in how you get there not just the final result.It was more of a general statement, yes.
In the German kitchen knife community there has been a lot of quantitative testing with different sharpening methods and different steels. The conclusion was the same as yours.
To really exploit the full potential of these steels a good guided system is almost mandatory.
noGuided systems allow better angle control and possibly better pressure control, is there anything else that prevents free hand sharpening from exploiting high wear resistance steels?
that there would be a significant difference between these two steels
no
Sure, but the difference increases significantly with a stable angle (and pressure control).
imo with a highly wear resistant steel you need way more 'strokes' to polish the edge. the more strokes you need the more potential to f up your edge.
Also edge retention increases on high wear resistant steels significantly with a higher grit finish, compared to simple carbon steels. That will increase the amount of sharpening even further with more potential for error. jus tmy 'hypothesis' to explain the observations being made though.
About factor 12-15xNice thread! How much more expensive is the Vancorn Superclean compared to M390 for example?
Before I answer your question regarding the the edge width: remember that the carbides need to be cut by the sharpening medium-because we need to keep in mind that the vast majority of steels has carbides well over 3-5 microns in size. They wouldn't get sharp at all if our sharpening stones wouldn't be able to cut straight through them. And in fact, high hardness carbides such as Vanadium carbides cannot be cut by non diamond or cbn stones - which is the reason many people have problems sharpening high vanadium content steels or sometimes even chromium (stainless) steels, because they just tear out the carbides. Refer to this document by Böhler Uddeholm (pages 4 and 5) for a very brief overview/source of what I just laid out: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIAxAC&usg=AOvVaw1TnRYOYFdHpirb9TIR3wFHSo the 5 nanometers refers to the abrasive size used to finish the edge and not the edge width? I could not imagine a .005 µm edge width with 1 µm carbides.
I would need you to be more specific. Because "semi stainless steel" can be anything from CPM 3V which is still good to sharpen with silicon carbide all the way up to S390 Microclean which features a lot of Vanadium carbides which require either diamond or cbn. (Page 4 and 5 of this link will shed some light on this: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIAxAC&usg=AOvVaw1TnRYOYFdHpirb9TIR3wFH)@Roman - A bit off, topic, but now that I have such a capacity here: What would be your favourite stone and strop/compound progression (free hand) for 62-65 hcr - say blue, white or semi-stainless steel - for use in the kitchen for cutting tomatoes, onions, carrots etc? Grit and brand?
Im just curious what your personal research has concluded when it comes to fx japanese knives for the kitchen and vegetables.
One good way to get around this when freehanding is to use very aggressive sharpening stones - the most aggressive type I know are CBN ones. Unfortunately the most expensive type - right next to vitrified Diamond. But it helps a lot!OK, thanks. The potential to mess up the edge due to more difficulties in sharpening and especially if going to higher grit and more passes makes sense.
Thank you Roman. I've been suspecting and saying for a while that one of the reasons people don't notice differences in low and high wear resistance steels in kitchen knives, and often prefer edges of simple steels, is at least partially due to the use of "incorrect" stones/abrasives when sharpening high wear resistance steels.One good way to get around this when freehanding is to use very aggressive sharpening stones - the most aggressive type I know are CBN ones. Unfortunately the most expensive type - right next to vitrified Diamond. But it helps a lot!
I use his vitrified diamond stones. Do you prefer CBN metallic bonded "stones" when sharpening high wear resistant steels?(Admins, if this post violates the forum rules of this forum just remove.)
I get my sharpening stones from this place - the best I know!:
https://www.practicalsharpening.com/benchstones1
I absolutely think that this is the reason. When the abrasive cannot cut the carbides, you might even end up with LESS edge retention than a classic high carbon steel at high hardness. Now there is nothing wrong with classic high carbon steels. But once/If people realize that they just have to use either diamond or cbn stones for these "super steels", the super steels will give the classic high carbon steels a run for their money I think. Personally, I also like old school Steel but definitely prefer modern PM "super steels". Because when it comes to edge retention, even more so when going for a fine, "scary sharp" polished edge finish like on that Vancron Superclean knife the OP posted, super steels are the clear winner. Yet no hamon on those and only very few jnats can cut them. (Yes, some jnats can actually sharpen high vanadium PM steels I found out! Made a video on it ages ago on my Instagram.)Thank you Roman. I've been suspecting and saying for a while that one of the reasons people don't notice differences in low and high wear resistance steels in kitchen knives, and often prefer edges of simple steels, is at least partially due to the use of "incorrect" stones/abrasives when sharpening high wear resistance steels.
Actually, I still cannot decide what I like better and I use both. Cannot go wrong with either of them imo. The metallic ones are easier to dress tho with this little trick I came up with - but then again they wear much faster than the vitrified ones so myeah:I use his vitrified diamond stones. Do you prefer CBN metallic bonded "stones" when sharpening high wear resistant steels?
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