A few newbie questions to steer my first purchases

[jamiewakeham]

Hi all

I've been lurking here a little while, trying to soak up some knowledge. I'm a keen home cook, with six quite modern (ie post millenium) Sabatier knives. Two events have reminded me that I always wanted to look into knives and knife work more closely - one was an utterly amazing meal at Le Manoir for my wife's recent birthday, and the other (shamefully) was watching The Bear...

I've got a fairly low end sharpening kit with a few different grit stones, and I'm learning that skill on my Sabs. But I think I'd like to pick up a few Japanese knives to play with as well. I think I have four questions at the moment.

Firstly, on my current knives: I know there's a lot of respect for older Sabatier knives, and I often see people specifically talking about carbon Sabs. Mine are all 15-20 years old, of two brands, P Sabatier by Stellar and what I think is R Sabatier:

Are these likely to be carbon steel, or stainless (I get that all stainless is carbon, but you know what I mean). I've not taken the best care of them and they've spent some significant time wet, so I suspect they must be stainless of some variety. And just how sharp could I reasonably aim to get these? I've done my best to sharpen them to 20 degrees, on a 1000 and then 3000 grit stone. I see videos of people bringing carbon steel knives to a sharpness where they glide effortlessly through newspaper. I can't get that - they will push cut through paper reasonably smoothly, but it needs quite a pronounced sawing motion. Am I limited by blade material, or my own inept technique, or a bit of both..?

Secondly, on a tangent from that - I reckon I could do with attending a sharpening course. Any recommendations in the south of the UK? I see several in London, which would be easy to get to.

Thirdly, on the possibility of new knives: look, I know how this is going to go. I'm going to get one or two, and then another few, and then I'll sell some because I just need that other one, and and and... I have a rather addictive personality when it comes to this sort of thing. My vague interest in cameras lead to a pair of Leicas and a medium format rig; my poor attempts at guitar took me to a custom built Telecaster. You get the idea.

But, let's pretend that I am going to stick to the idea of just adding two or three knives! I'm thinking that a nakiri, a petty and an all rounder (either gyuto or santoku) would cover most bases. Does that sound reasonable? Even my longest Sab is only 195mm long and even my heaviest is only 145g, so I suspect I will favour shorter and lighter knives because that's what I'm used to. I tend to do a lot of drawing and rocking cuts, less push cutting and chopping. But I intend to try to make myself use different cutting actions anyway.

I'm right handed and would prefer japanese handles. I think I probably want stainless clad, for ease of maintenance, but I think I want to see what the fuss about carbon steel is. I suspect that the differences between aogami and shirogami will be lost on me, at least at first, so I should go for whatever comes up. Budget wise let's say around £100 per knife, with bonus points for a little cheaper. At this level I'm perfectly happy to go with pre owned ones from the classifieds!

I have to admit I'm overwhelmed with the plethora of names that are coming up. I've noted a Yoshikane nakiri that's in the EU, that might be a good starting point, but I'm happy to be steered.

And lastly, I'm in the UK and importing just about anything has become somewhat troublesome since brexit. When sellers say they're happy to sell in the EU, do they generally mean that to include the UK? And do knives usually get through customs without attracting enormous markups? I'm assuming that at the sort of price point I'm looking at, transatlantic shipping is going to be so significant that it's not really worth considering?

Cheers
Jamie

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Howdy Jamie and welcome.

All of what follows will strictly be my opinions and others will differ but here goes...

I don't know what your Sabs are, someone will, but keep in mind that not all carbon steels are the same. Some are quite resilient. One immediate issue with sharpening them is the heavy finger guard aka full bolster. That makes it near impossible to get the tail end of your edge and it will just get back there. Have you been using the bottom one one a steel?

As to not being able to cut newspaper, that's you. Two things cut: 1) a sharp edge and 2) geometry. Those knives probably will have a wider angled edge and likely are thicker overall than many Japanese knives but they should still be completely capable of slicing newspaper.

Spend time researching beginning sharpening threads here on the forum and if need be, ask for help.

As to what knives to get, keep in mind that most nakiri are push-cut oriented. You can certainly rick chop with many of them but it isn't their many design intent. I love nakiri so in no way am I discouraging them just making sure you're considering that aspect. I also tend to like shorter knives so while many will no doubt suggest you go larger, just know that it is indeed personal preference.

Which brings me to my next point, personal preference. A lot of this is just that and you have to figure it out for yourself. For a lot of us that was and continues to be a process of experimentation. I like less-refined but performance focused knives in general so it' fairly easy for me to target lesser expensive knives to try out. Knife Japan can be a great resource for this. My preference has always been to focus on more affordable knives of different sizes, shapes and steels so I can explore and see what I like and don't. Some folks will say just to go for it because you can always sell your knives for minimal loss on the BST sub-forum but I would caution that is not always true so give it some thought.

 

[Qapla']

And lastly, I'm in the UK and importing just about anything has become somewhat troublesome since brexit.

Then have you contacted any UK'ish makers?

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/greetings-from-the-uk.54107/#post-823290
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/hello-im-paul-a-british-knifemaker.43005/

 

[NickMinton]

Howdy and welcome to the forums!

In regards to your question / comment about sharpening, I’ll thrown in my own history of learning to sharpen

Really read up on learning to create a burr and what they are as well as how to get rid of them

I used to just sharpen (many years ago) on a 1000 stone until I thought I was done for some reason and would jump to a 6000 stone (aka king 1000/6000 combo)

My knives ended up like what you are describing, mostly sharp but overall frustrating when seeing videos of what the knives could be at their full potential.

Knowing what I know today and having sharpened a lot more, I realize that foundational bevel setting is really the key to a really sharp knife and subsequently great cutting experience. This is usually done on a 200-600grit stone and then refined on higher stones (800, 1000, 2000 etc)

 

[jamiewakeham]

Thanks for replies, all.

I don't know what your Sabs are, someone will, but keep in mind that not all carbon steels are the same. Some are quite resilient. One immediate issue with sharpening them is the heavy finger guard aka full bolster. That makes it near impossible to get the tail end of your edge and it will just get back there.

You're quite right, that bolster is a pain. I did my best but have accepted that I won't do a very good job on the final cm or so.

Have you been using the bottom one one a steel?

I have a ceramic rod that I use to touch them up after every use.

As to not being able to cut newspaper, that's you. Two things cut: 1) a sharp edge and 2) geometry. Those knives probably will have a wider angled edge and likely are thicker overall than many Japanese knives but they should still be completely capable of slicing newspaper.

Right, fine - that's what I expected! I've set them at 20 degrees, but clearly that should still be capable of geting a much better result than I'm currently achieving. Possibly my cheap no-name stones are a bottleneck, but honestly it's probably my technique.

As to what knives to get, keep in mind that most nakiri are push-cut oriented. You can certainly rick chop with many of them but it isn't their many design intent. I love nakiri so in no way am I discouraging them just making sure you're considering that aspect.

Yep, understood. I'm really keen to try a nakiri because I know it will push me to learn new ways to work. I have a feeling my tendency to draw cut is linked to not having very sharp knives in the first place.

Which brings me to my next point, personal preference. A lot of this is just that and you have to figure it out for yourself. For a lot of us that was and continues to be a process of experimentation.

That makes a lot of sense. I'm happy to come in at the low end of the market and buy and sell a bit - I just see any losses on buying and selling as rental, really!

Then have you contacted any UK'ish makers?

I haven't, but you're right, that's certainly something I should look into. Was hoping to mostly go used at first, but seeing just how rubbish the import rules are now, buying UK based and new starts to look less expensive...

Really read up on learning to create a burr and what they are as well as how to get rid of them

Yep, I think this is where I'm falling down. I was pulling back as soon as I thought I might have detected it, and I suspect I needed to go further.

I used to just sharpen (many years ago) on a 1000 stone until I thought I was done for some reason and would jump to a 6000 stone (aka king 1000/6000 combo)
My knives ended up like what you are describing, mostly sharp but overall frustrating when seeing videos of what the knives could be at their full potential.

That feels quite familiar.

Knowing what I know today and having sharpened a lot more, I realize that foundational bevel setting is really the key to a really sharp knife and subsequently great cutting experience. This is usually done on a 200-600grit stone and then refined on higher stones (800, 1000, 2000 etc)

I think my first upgrade stone might need to be a decent 400-ish.

Cheers
Jamie

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

To start out, I suggest getting a nice big burr you can feel along the entire edge and have confidence in. These beginning efforts are more about you learning and obtaining feedback than edge quality. Once you feel it and "get it" then you can be more conscious of raising smaller burrs.

If you haven't already, use a marker to paint the edge and it will help inform you as to what is happening.

Japanese Knife Imports, Korin and Peter Nowlan are popular, trusted recommendations for sharpening tutorial videos.

 

[BrunofromBrazil]

Hey Jamie, how are you?

Same as before, this is my opinion, not all of this are facts, but my interpretation of them haha

First in regards to the sharpening process, I've started with some quite no good stones, not really the ones I would recommend, boker. I didn't reallly know how to sharpen and started seeing a lot of youtube videos on this and learned a ton! After a while I discovered some other knife enthusiasts and learned a nother ton from them. Then I started going to meatings, did some forging and knifemaking courses and finally got a awesome class from a Hamono Togishi (The dude that puts a edge on knife, polishes them, can do maintenance, first edge directly from a blacksmith...) a professional. All those classes, videos and courses helped me a lot to understand and love even more knives haha But back to what you are saying, one of the best guys, who actually work on the UK (London) is Rodrigo from togidai.uk (his instagram), a awesome guy that understands a LOT about this knife world!

In regards to the knife I'd say there are a lot of awesome starter knives at that price point! I don't really recall to be quite honest, but there are tons of good makers, but a lot would be semi industrial, if I were you I'd look a bit to find artisanal knives, or at least semi industrial. If you need anything or just need to talk about this overwelming worl of knives just reach out to me or any other member in here, a lot of awesome guys in here!

Good luck on your journey,

Bruno

 

[Jovidah]

My 2 cents:
If I had to guess your original 2 knives are probably stainless; if they were carbon you'd know by now (you'd see either some rust or patina).
They look like they're somewhat on the short side (15 or 18 cm?) and at least the bottom one looks like it was mostly maintained with a sharpening steel, or sharpened without adjusting the bolster.
How sharp depends on a combination of your technique, the steel, your stones.... but usually the main limitation is your technique. I also wouldn't stress too much about reaching 'peak sharpness' for kitchen knives like hanging hair test since that's not necessarily functional.

No clue about where to go for sharpening lessons but there's a ton of good (and some bad) tutorials on youtube. I've learned most of what I know from Japanese Knife Imports and Murray Carter but there's plenty of others. The only one I'd really recommend against is Burrfection.

Now when it comes to upgrading:
I think 'just sticking to a few good knives' is actually viable... but what to buy depends a lot on your preferences... which is hard to determine when your experience so far has been limited. My rule of thumb is that if you're going for the 'as few as possible approach' I'd always want it to be a (semi)stainless knife, just for convenience.
Personally I don't really care for nakiris... other people love them, but that makes it a bit hard to say whether it's something you'd like without trying it. The knife questionaire might help; your preferred cutting technique can help in determining what you may like.
But if you like rockchopping then a nakiri is just about the worst knife imaginable for that.

However, if you rockchop... longer tends to be better, and you might also find that a lot of the more affordable knives that tick all your boxes are the ones with western handles. But they're not necessarily on the light side. Whether that's a problem is hard to say without you being able to handle a knife.

I will say this tho... a petty is more of a niche knife that's not absolutely mandatory, and a nakiri doesn't do anything you cannot do with a gyuto. You might be better off buying 1 good gyuto, and maybe a more affordable petty on the side, than trying to squeeze all 3 into the budget and getting subpar examples of each.

 

[blokey]

Welcome! Plenty of good advices already, if you decide to upgrade your knife, @Knot Handcrafted is also UK based and his work is clean and very reasonably priced

 

[Jovidah]

I have a ceramic rod that I use to touch them up after every use.

I wouldn't necessarily recommend this... especially since a lot of cheapish ceramic rods are fairly low grit. So you can take your edge fresh off a 6000 grit stone and basically reduce the finish by pulling it over a ceramic rod that's only 1500 grit.
In general it's fairly easy to screw up knives with rods unless you're technique is really good.

Right, fine - that's what I expected! I've set them at 20 degrees, but clearly that should still be capable of geting a much better result than I'm currently achieving. Possibly my cheap no-name stones are a bottleneck, but honestly it's probably my technique.

If it's the cheap Chinese stones then it's entirely possible and I'd very much recommend getting at least some half decent Japanese stones.

Yep, understood. I'm really keen to try a nakiri because I know it will push me to learn new ways to work. I have a feeling my tendency to draw cut is linked to not having very sharp knives in the first place.

Actually draw cuts are not necessarily bad. They also prevent stickage on stuff like potatoes. My guess is the main reason you use them is simply because your knives are short.

That makes a lot of sense. I'm happy to come in at the low end of the market and buy and sell a bit - I just see any losses on buying and selling as rental, really!

Lately UK knives haven't really sold that well (not being in the UK really problematizes things) so I'd be a bit hesitant with this.

I think my first upgrade stone might need to be a decent 400-ish.

If you currently have the cheap Chinese junk than I'd actually go for something like a proper 1k grit stone.

 

[jamiewakeham]

To start out, I suggest getting a nice big burr you can feel along the entire edge and have confidence in. These beginning efforts are more about you learning and obtaining feedback than edge quality. Once you feel it and "get it" then you can be more conscious of raising smaller burrs.

I'm not convinced I have yet felt the burr... which makes me think I'm underdoing it.

one of the best guys, who actually work on the UK (London) is Rodrigo from togidai.uk (his instagram), a awesome guy that understands a LOT about this knife world!

It looks like he only takes sharpening work, rather than teaching it, but I'll keep him in mind!

My 2 cents:
If I had to guess your original 2 knives are probably stainless; if they were carbon you'd know by now (you'd see either some rust or patina).

I think you're right.

They look like they're somewhat on the short side (15 or 18 cm?) and at least the bottom one looks like it was mostly maintained with a sharpening steel, or sharpened without adjusting the bolster.

Indeed, the longer one's about 17cm. They've been sharpened once many years ago by someone with a mechanical spinning grinder, and since then they've been sharpened by me, with a ceramic rod and most recently they suffered my fledgling attempts with the whetstones.

I think 'just sticking to a few good knives' is actually viable... but what to buy depends a lot on your preferences... which is hard to determine when your experience so far has been limited.

It has been limited. I will keep the Sabs, of course, so the 'few' new knives are additions rather than replacements.

Welcome! Plenty of good advices already, if you decide to upgrade your knife, @Knot Handcrafted is also UK based and his work is clean and very reasonably priced

Once I have a better idea of what I really like, I may well go to him!

I wouldn't necessarily recommend this... especially since a lot of cheapish ceramic rods are fairly low grit. So you can take your edge fresh off a 6000 grit stone and basically reduce the finish by pulling it over a ceramic rod that's only 1500 grit.

Oh - that's surprising to me. It's also Sabatier branded (although I get that's not particularly a guarantee).

Lately UK knives haven't really sold that well (not being in the UK really problematizes things) so I'd be a bit hesitant with this.

Bloody brexit..!

If you currently have the cheap Chinese junk than I'd actually go for something like a proper 1k grit stone.

It's the same set as is sometimes advertised with 'Rockingham Forge' branding. Certainly budget but I hope not complete junk? But I take your point - my Sabs do still have the basic geometry in shape, I think, so perhaps a 1000 grit to keep them that way might be the best upgrade.

I think I have a working plan. I'm trying to score a cheap Nakiri from the classifieds, to satisfy my immediate urge for new toys. I'm going to book a decent sharpening class, to which I will take the new knife plus a couple of my sabs. I'll also take one of the whetstones and the ceramic rod, to ask if they are worth persevering with or if they are doing more harm than good! And whilst I'm there I can play with lots of possible knives and get a much better feel for what I really want to use.

Cheers, all!

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I'm not convinced I have yet felt the burr... which makes me think I'm underdoing it.


It looks like he only takes sharpening work, rather than teaching it, but I'll keep him in mind!


I think you're right.


Indeed, the longer one's about 17cm. They've been sharpened once many years ago by someone with a mechanical spinning grinder, and since then they've been sharpened by me, with a ceramic rod and most recently they suffered my fledgling attempts with the whetstones.


It has been limited. I will keep the Sabs, of course, so the 'few' new knives are additions rather than replacements.


Once I have a better idea of what I really like, I may well go to him!


Oh - that's surprising to me. It's also Sabatier branded (although I get that's not particularly a guarantee).


Bloody brexit..!


It's the same set as is sometimes advertised with 'Rockingham Forge' branding. Certainly budget but I hope not complete junk? But I take your point - my Sabs do still have the basic geometry in shape, I think, so perhaps a 1000 grit to keep them that way might be the best upgrade.

I think I have a working plan. I'm trying to score a cheap Nakiri from the classifieds, to satisfy my immediate urge for new toys. I'm going to book a decent sharpening class, to which I will take the new knife plus a couple of my sabs. I'll also take one of the whetstones and the ceramic rod, to ask if they are worth persevering with or if they are doing more harm than good! And whilst I'm there I can play with lots of possible knives and get a much better feel for what I really want to use.

Cheers, all!

Cheap is a relative term but if you're looking for an inexpensive but still well made nakiri, Michael at Knife Japan has you covered.

https://knifejapan.com/knife-types/nakiri/

 

[jamiewakeham]

Cheap is a relative term but if you're looking for an inexpensive but still well made nakiri, Michael at Knife Japan has you covered.

Thanks - yes, I've spent a while looking at the thread on Knife Japan. If this one in the classifieds falls through, then I was thinking of perhaps the Ikenami Hamono 160mm.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Thanks - yes, I've spent a while looking at the thread on Knife Japan. If this one in the classifieds falls through, then I was thinking of perhaps the Ikenami Hamono 160mm.

If I remember right, that's what Michael and his wife use at home. I don't have one but it is on my short list.

I'm a big fan of the Homi offering.

 

[Jovidah]

'Sabatier' branded is rather meaningless since it's not a protected brand. As a result there's a whole variety of different Sabatier brands with quality all over the place. Then on top of that you have cheap garbage that simply uses the name because they can.

I'm really not 100% sure about this but the 'Rockingham Forge' stuff just looks like another fake-brand to sell Chinese garbage... and I'm getting the same impression from the stones.
But it's hard to say without being able to compare them in person to a proper stone.

Part of the problem with the Sabs is that you can see the frown from long-term maintenance on just a rod. That's... not impossible, but quite some work to restore.

 

[jamiewakeham]

If I remember right, that's what Michael and his wife use at home. I don't have one but it is on my short list.

That's a reasonable endorsement!

I'm a big fan of the Homi offering.

Cool - I shall keep that in mind.

'Sabatier' branded is rather meaningless since it's not a protected brand. As a result there's a whole variety of different Sabatier brands with quality all over the place. Then on top of that you have cheap garbage that simply uses the name because they can.

Yep, understood. I think these are in the OK-ish category - they were sold by relatively high end UK shops, and despite 20 years of my abuse they're not in terrible shape.

I'm really not 100% sure about this but the 'Rockingham Forge' stuff just looks like another fake-brand to sell Chinese garbage... and I'm getting the same impression from the stones. But it's hard to say without being able to compare them in person to a proper stone.

It's not impossible. I'll take them along to the class and see how hard they laugh...

Part of the problem with the Sabs is that you can see the frown from long-term maintenance on just a rod. That's... not impossible, but quite some work to restore.

Right, I see. Well, they'll give me something to work on then! Presumably I am going to have to work hard with a low grit stone to bring the bevel back into alignment?

 

[xsmx13]

https://cuttingedgeknives.co.uk/collections/all-knives?page=2
Here's a UK retailer where you might have less challenges with import and shipping fees. Depending on if you want carbon or stainless, the Kyohei Shindo and Masutani knives offer some nice value as gateway Japanese knives.

 

[stringer]

Right, I see. Well, they'll give me something to work on then! Presumably I am going to have to work hard with a low grit stone to bring the bevel back into alignment?

You are going to have to relieve the finger guard by the heel.

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/beginner-questions.42446/post-626337

 

[jamiewakeham]

Here's a UK retailer where you might have less challenges with import and shipping fees. Depending on if you want carbon or stainless, the Kyohei Shindo and Masutani knives offer some nice value as gateway Japanese knives.

Thanks - I'll take a look. It's very hard to know if it's better value to buy from somewhere like this, where they've already taken the import hit, or to do it yourself.

You are going to have to relieve the finger guard by the heel.
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/beginner-questions.42446/post-626337

Aha - I see what you mean.

 

[Noodle Soup]

I'm a heavy user of nakiri and have been for many years. i disagree about them being best suit to push cuts. They were originally the all purpose home cooking knife of Japanese country folks with a heavy to vegatables diet. I push, pull, mince, dice and slice as needed with them. My latest is a 170mm Ohkubo Kajiya from KnifeJapan that I'm very happy with. It's been slicing (draw cut) a lot of garden tomatoes from the garden for the last few weeks.

 

[xsmx13]

Thanks - I'll take a look. It's very hard to know if it's better value to buy from somewhere like this, where they've already taken the import hit, or to do it yourself.

In this case their prices look to be around ~15£ higher than purchasing from the US vendors though there is some variation. I'm not sure how this would compare to direct shipping from Japan, but I'm guessing the shipping cost savings would make up for it.

 

[Yoshi]

https://cuttingedgeknives.co.uk/collections/all-knives?page=2
Here's a UK retailer where you might have less challenges with import and shipping fees. Depending on if you want carbon or stainless, the Kyohei Shindo and Masutani knives offer some nice value as gateway Japanese knives.

I love my Shindo nakiri, it outcuts a few of my knives that cost 3x its price

 

[cotedupy]

Secondly, on a tangent from that - I reckon I could do with attending a sharpening course. Any recommendations in the south of the UK? I see several in London, which would be easy to get to.

Cheers for coming along this evening Jamie!

I'm not just saying this, but in the five or so months I've been teaching the sharpening at Blenheim I think you've probably been the best 'student' I've had. As I said a few times (before I knew you were of this parish) - your sharpening level, and particularly your deburring, was clearly quite good to begin with. So probably the 'Intro to Sharpening’ course didn't teach you anything you didn't already know, but always nice to know you're on the right path eh!

If, as you said, you weren't getting those kind of results previously - I think that's more to do with the fact we were using a reasonably good stone (King 800), as opposed to the cheapy ones you have already. I actually did a review a while back of the kind of no-name, Chinese made waterstones that I think you might have. They are useable, but they're not easy to get great results from, even if you're very good at sharpening:

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/no-name-amazon-stones-review.55923/

Are these likely to be carbon steel, or stainless

I'm fairly certain the one you brought along this evening (bottom knife in your pic above?) was stainless.

When sellers say they're happy to sell in the EU, do they generally mean that to include the UK? And do knives usually get through customs without attracting enormous markups?

Most sellers outside of Japan will ship to the UK. Some Japanese sellers are a bit funny about it.

Whether you get a customs charge is slightly pot luck, and depends on the seller and shipping company. FWIW I've never had a customs charge on anything bought from Maxim at JNS. I've never asked him to under-declare or do anything that skirts with the law, but just the way in which he sends stuff - via a very quick DHL service - seems to get through without attracting unwanted HMRC attention.

 

[Delat]

You’ve already gotten some great suggestions on knives above, just adding the Takamura in vg10 or SG2/R2 for you to consider in your price range for stainless. Although a carbon-core actually would be easier to learn and practice on, tbh, but I don’t personally know of any stainless-clad for less than 100 pounds. If you’re ok with non-stainless cladding, then in that price range Kyohei Shindo mentioned previously has a good rep, as does Shiro Kamo.

For stones I would highly recommend a shapton glass 500 and some kind of flattening stone - atoma 140 is a very common and popular recommendation. There’s cheaper options to the atoma, but the SG500 is highly recommended.

When you’re unsure of your sharpening skills, especially raising a burr, getting fast and consistent results is hard to understate. And the SG500 will get you there. And knowing that it’s properly flattened and the top surface scuffed/refreshed with the atoma will both help and also eliminate a bit of uncertainty.

 

[jamiewakeham]

Cheers for coming along this evening Jamie!

Thanks - it was really instructive! The single most important thing for me was to understand how subtle the burr is, especially on stainless - I'd been looking for something quite a bit more obvious. I fear I may have been working away long past where I needed to.

I'm not just saying this, but in the five or so months I've been teaching the sharpening at Blenheim I think you've probably been the best 'student' I've had. As I said a few times (before I knew you were of this parish) - your sharpening level, and particularly your deburring, was clearly quite good to begin with. So probably the 'Intro to Sharpening’ course didn't teach you anything you didn't already know, but always nice to know you're on the right path eh!

Well, it's very good of you to say so! I'm reasonably capable with my hands, and I'd been trying for a while already - I get the impression that most people on that course have never actually used a whetstone before.

But whilst I probably didn't learn anything I didn't know in the first 15 minutes or so, it was incredibly valuable to be able to hand you a knife and to get immediate feedback, and confirmation that this was indeed the right path. That reassurance is what I was hoping for.

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/no-name-amazon-stones-review.55923/

Oh. Bugger. That is precisely the kit I have...

I'm going to have another go with it this weekend, but now I know what it's meant to feel like I suspect I might be in the market for a new stone or two.

FWIW I've never had a customs charge on anything bought from Maxim at JNS. I've never asked him to under-declare or do anything that skirts with the law, but just the way in which he sends stuff - via a very quick DHL service - seems to get through without attracting unwanted HMRC attention.

That's useful to know - thanks. I picked up that nakiri from a seller in the Netherlands, and that sailed through with no charge.