Are two sujihikis better than one?

[nickw_]

I am wanting to buy a sujihiki. I have done a self assessment of my needs, and read literally dozens of threads on length. So I'm not looking to turn this into a 240 vs 270 vs 300 debate. Nor a "please recommend a knife" post.

I am considering buying both a 240mm and a 300mm. My hope is to bounce this off everyone, and see if most people think it's a good idea.

___
Here's what I am thinking:
Based on how we eat (more small, European portion sizes) a 240mm sujihiki will likely suffice for 90-95%+ of our needs. I can really only see a need for a 270-300mm perhaps 15-20 times a year.

As a home cook, for day to day, my 210mm gyuto is usually long enough for slicing single portions of protien. However, there are enough times where I have thought a little extra length would be nice; typically for things like beef tenderloin, smaller roasts, turkey breasts, etc... But by and large, I think a 240mm would cover the vast majority of things. As a side, it's worth noting two things:
- 1) I tend to favour small, more precise and nimble knives.
- 2) We do eat lots of sushi and I will add a yanagiba at some point, to alleviate the need for the sujihiki to assume this role.

However, I do occasional make large roasts (prime rib, brisket, leg of ham, etc), or breakdown larger cuts into steaks, so I think a 300mm would be nice. Perhaps even 330mm, so I can still have 310-320mm of actual cutting edge. Again, I wouldn't use this often, but sometimes a long knife is the right tool for the job.

Thus my thinking is:
To get a very high quality 240mm sujihiki for my daily needs, and more affordable 300mm for times when something longer is needed. Rather than getting a single 270mm; which I see as a compromise on both ends: too long for most things, too short for some, but the goldilocks length if you need to pick just one. A single 300mm would do everything, but far larger than I am wanting daily knife.

So are two sujihiki's (240mm and 300mm) better than one? What do you think about this approach?

Thanks,
Nick

 

[nickw_]

Edit: Please read:

For those who would say, a 240 sujihiki overlaps to much with a gyuto….

Or For those who would say, buy a 240 gyuto instead.

The particular 240mm sujihiki I am looking at is approaching gyuhiki territory.

So I think it could (and would) replace my 210mm gyuto, while also serving as my primary slicer.

 

[Ruso]

.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

So to me, needing/wanting a 300mm 15-20 times a year is quite a lot. That's more or less one to two times a month. Bounce that off of you saying your 210 gyuto can handle most of your tasks, then for me, I'd question the need for a 240 at all.

I'd probably buy a work-oriented 300 and see how it panned out before investing in two, especially a higher end 240.

Something like this:
https://bernalcutlery.com/collectio...-kikumori-300mm-sujihiki-nihonkou-carbon-stee

 

[blokey]

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Just thinking:
For those who would say, buy a 240 gyuto instead.

The piticualr 240mm sujihiki I am looking at is approaching gyuhiki territory. It’s convex in profile, has a thicker spine, is about 230-235mm in edge length, and does have a slightly taller height.

So I think it could (and would) replace my 210mm (or 240) gyuoto, while also serving as my primary slicer.

A gyuto can easily be your primary slicer. I would not sacrifice the greater versatility of a dedicated gyuto for a "close-to" suji just to gain slicing.

 

[ian]

Obviously just buy both. You have thought about this a lot already, and in this thread you are looking for us to sign off on your purchase. We sign off, happily!

 

[MowgFace]

Obviously just buy both. You have thought about this a lot already, and in this thread you are looking for us to sign off on your purchase. We sign off, happily!

+1

 

[pjheff]

So are two sujihiki's (240mm and 300mm) better than one? What do you think about this approach?

I subscribe to a two sujihiki approach, though both of mine are the same length (275mm). One is more of a workhorse in AEBL from Del Ealy, while the other is more of a laser in wrought iron clad 26c3 from Tobias Heldqvist.

 

[nickw_]

So to me, needing/wanting a 300mm 15-20 times a year is quite a lot. That's more or less one to two times a month. Bounce that off of you saying your 210 gyuto can handle most of your tasks, then for me, I'd question the need for a 240 at all.

I'd probably buy a work-oriented 300 and see how it panned out before investing in two, especially a higher end 240.

This is above and beyond a 240mm. Out of the 15-20 times a year, if I had a 270mm, I would only need/want a 300mm maybe 4-6 times. That’s a guess, but something along that order.

A gyuto can easily be your primary slicer. I would not sacrifice the greater versatility of a dedicated gyuto for a "close-to" suji just to gain slicing.

Thank you for offering another point of view. This is exactly what I wanted, to challenge my conclusion.

To respond, I have thought about this. I want to gain a little more slicing length, but I wouldn’t want most 240mm gyutos. They would be to heavy.

I probably should have mentioned, I’ve used my 210mm gyuto almost exclusively for 8 years. Overall, a 210mm gyuto is the perfect one knife solution/compromise for me, blending my needs and preferences.

That said, over that time I’ve often found myself wanting something a little smaller (a petty) a little taller for vegetables (a nakiri) or a little longer for slicing (a 240mm sujihiki).

So the 240mm sujihiki would work in conjunction with those to (potentially) replace the need for a 210 gyuto. That said I wouldn’t let my 210 gyuto go right away. I’d make sure I’m happy with the 3 knife alternative set first.

Sound reasonable?

Thanks.
Nick

 

[nickw_]

View attachment 192978

A picture is worth a thousand words.

And I am picking up what your putting down

/end thread?

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

This is above and beyond a 240mm. Out of the 15-20 times a year, if I had a 270mm, I would only need/want a 300mm maybe 4-6 times. That’s a guess, but something along that order.

Thanks for offering another point of view. This is exactly what I wanted, to challenge my conclusion.

To respond, I have thought about this, I wouldn’t want most 240mm gyuto’s. I like smaller, lighter, more nimble knives.

I probably should have mentioned, I’ve used my 210mm gyuto almost exclusively for 8 years. A 210mm gyuoto is the perfect one knife solution and compromise for me, blending my needs and preferences.

That said, over that time I’ve often found myself wanting something a little smaller (a petty) a little taller for vegetables (a nakiri) or a little longer for slicing (a 240mm sujihiki).

So a 240 sujihiki would work in conjunction with those to (potentially) replace the need for a 210 gyuto.

That said I wouldn’t let my 210 gyuto go right away. I’d make sure I’m happy with the 3 knife alternative first.

Sound reasonable?

Thanks.
Nick

My premise was to stick with your 210 gyuto and just buy the 300 suji.

I too like smaller knives and have used 180's a lot so the primary thing the suji brings to me, is length for those task-specific times when it is nice to have.

I wouldn't opt for a bulky 240 suji over a 210 gyuto, especially if the gytuo is already fulfilling the bulk of your needs.

Or, just do like @blokey and @ian suggest and buy both.

 

[nickw_]

Obviously just buy both. You have thought about this a lot already, and in this thread you are looking for us to sign off on your purchase. We sign off, happily!

It’s true, I do want to buy both. I was hoping for some validation/push in that direction.

But I also wanted confirm I’m overlooking something obvious. So I do appriciate @HumbleHomeCook pushing back with another point of view.

My premise was to stick with your 210 gyuto and just buy the 300 suji.

I too like smaller knives and have used 180's a lot so the primary thing the suji brings to me, is length for those task-specific times when it is nice to have.

I wouldn't opt for a bulky 240 suji over a 210 gyuto, especially if the gytuo is already fulfilling the bulk of your needs.

Or, just do like @blokey and @ian suggest and buy both.

I hear what your saying about bulk in a daily knife. I have wondered about this as well. Thank you for bringing it up.

I did consider a 210mm utility/suji for this reason. But most loose a little length as they tend to measure about 200-205 from heel to tip, and I didn’t want to go backwards there.

The 240mm sujihiki I am looking at measures about 230mm and is 25 grams lighter than my 210 gyuto. So perhaps it will be okay?

But in truth, I am guessing, and I have a clear and obvious bias right now, based on my desire for it to be true. Thus I appreciate the sober second opinion.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

It’s true, I do want to buy both. I was hoping for some validation/push in that direction.

But I also wanted confirm I’m overlooking something obvious. So I do appriciate @HumbleHomeCook pushing back with another point of view.


I hear what your saying about bulk in a daily knife. I have wondered about this as well. Thank you for bringing it up.

I did consider a 210mm utility/suji for this reason. But most loose a little length as they tend to measure about 200-205 from heel to tip, and I didn’t want to go backwards there.

The 240mm sujihiki I am looking at measures about 230mm and is 25 grams lighter than my 210 gyuto. So perhaps it will be okay?

But in truth, I am guessing, and I have a clear and obvious bias right now, based on my desire for it to be true. Thus I appreciate the sober second opinion.

For me, the suji vs. gyuto decision would be far more height based than length.

I'd still go with the 300 (or a 270) and your current 210 and see how you like the pairing. Those 240 suji's ain't going anywhere. You might find out that what you want is a higher end, longer suji and not the higher 240 at all.

I love my suji and am glad to have one. It' a 240. I don't use it a ton but love having the option of it now that I have one and it does see probably weekly use. If my kitchen space was larger, I would go with a 270 to give me more length separation from my 180/210 gyutos.

 

[superworrier]

I'm in the 2 sujis with one laser one workhorse camp. Of course, my workhorse suji is not here yet, but I'm basing this on how my yanagi handles (which is on the heavier side, as many are).

 

[M1k3]

The obvious answer is yes, buy all the ones you're thinking about. Use them. Sell for a small loss. Rinse and repeat until you may just happen to eventually not maybe find your "holy grail".

 

[MowgFace]

I also like me a thicker heavier Suji. 240 is what I usually need. 270 would have made it so I didn’t need a 240.

Then I’d get another of your favorite size Gyutos. Or an undersized Sakai thin and light. Even if you only use it half the time switching with your other, it’s gonna get way more use than a dedicated slicer.

BUT you’re looking at a Gyuji, so… perfect?

 

[nickw_]

For me, the suji vs. gyuto decision would be far more height based than length.

I'd still go with the 300 (or a 270) and your current 210 and see how you like the pairing. Those 240 suji's ain't going anywhere. You might find out that what you want is a higher end, longer suji and not the higher 240 at all.

I love my suji and am glad to have one. It' a 240. I don't use it a ton but love having the option of it now that I have one and it does see probably weekly use. If my kitchen space was larger, I would go with a 270 to give me more length separation from my 180/210 gyutos.

Thanks. Height wise the suji I am looking at is 38mm, and it has enough front curve to allow for some rock chopping. Which is why I said it’s moving towards gyuhiki range.

I will still get the 300mm I want. It’s just out of stock, and it looks like I’ll be waiting 3-6months for it.

The obvious answer is yes, buy all the ones you're thinking about. Use them. Sell for a small loss. Rinse and repeat until you may just happen to eventually not maybe find your "holy grail".

I also like me a thicker heavier Suji. 240 is what I usually need. 270 would have made it so I didn’t need a 240.

Then I’d get another of your favorite size Gyutos. Or an undersized Sakai thin and light. Even if you only use it half the time switching with your other, it’s gonna get way more use than a dedicated slicer.

BUT you’re looking at a Gyuji, so… perfect?

At this point I should probably just buy it and try it. You guys are right. It does take some experimenting to find your grail. Height wise, it might be just perfect.

It’s just expensive and I was just trying to minimize the flipping. But at this point I’ve wasted so much time thinking about it….

Yeah… I should just buy it and try it.

 

[labor of love]

___
Here's what I am thinking:
Based on how we eat (more small, European portion sizes) a 240mm sujihiki will likely suffice for 90%+ of our needs. I can really only see a need for a 270-300mm perhaps 15-20 times a year.

If you’re only using the 300mm suji for roasts a few times a year it would make sense to blow most of your budget on a very nice 240mm suji and pick up a much cheaper 300mm slicer like vintage sabatier or something like this
https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/minamoto-no-masakane-sujihiki-300mm-no-bulster/

 

[M1k3]

If you’re only using the 300mm suji for roasts a few times a year it would make sense to blow most of your budget on a very nice 240mm suji and pick up a much cheaper 300mm slicer like vintage sabatier or something like this
https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/minamoto-no-masakane-sujihiki-300mm-no-bulster/

Agreed, whichever you're using more often, go nicer.

 

[daveb]

I''m a bit suji stupid, I think there are about 8 running around here to include a 210 for charcuterie, a 240 for portioning the easy stuff, a few 270's and two custom 285s that I use in professional applications. The longer ones include some laser, some workhorse, some short, some tall. Like you've alluded too, the 240 is the most used at home.

I'll suggest that a 270 will meet your needs for the larger roasts and agree with above that you drop more coin on the 240 than the longer knife. I've had one 300mm that I used primarily for wedding cakes and would discourage it and anything anything longer for your application..

You specifically didn't ask for recs, but will offer that you would be well served with Wat Pro's in both lengths. Make sure you include weight as a charactristic in the longer knife. A 270 should go at least 165g for larger roasts, my favorites are +200g.

Another night at the office:

 

[Barmoley]

240 suji is a very specific tool. Obviously buy 2 if you want, but I doubt you will ever use one of them after the initial honeymoon period. Longer sujis make a lot more sense for home users than 240 sujis unless you are limited in space a lot. 240s have their use, but most home users don't need them.

 

[Luftmensch]

What do you think about this approach?

The problem with this question is that everybody will answer according to their preferences! You don't need permission to do what you want to do!

It is all terribly personal but for what it is worth... i agree with @HumbleHomeCook, @Barmoley. If you have the space buy (only) the longer suji. The 240mm is rather specialised for a home cook.

I know you wanted to steer the conversation away from gyutos... But unless your meals are continually dominated by preparation where the height of a gyuto would be cumbersome (or the length of a long suji).... wouldn't switching knives be more cumbersome? Each to their own... I'd rather be occasionally mildly inconvenienced by a small amount of extra height than change knives. Switching knives is more cleaning and faffing around. None of which are terribly costly but they aren't necessary either - so clearly I am lazy...

Just throwing it out there... but maaaaybe you'd have more fun per dollar spent by experimenting with different daily drivers**??



** Edit: by daily drivers I mean general prep: chef knives, gyutos, santokus, nakiris and chinese cleavers.

A single 300mm would do everything, but far larger than I am wanting daily knife.

Those who use Sujis as a daily driver are likely in a minority! I imagine more people use petties as a daily...

 

[nickw_]

I''m a bit suji stupid, I think there are about 8 running around here to include a 210 for charcuterie, a 240 for portioning the easy stuff, a few 270's and two custom 285s that I use in professional applications. The longer ones include some laser, some workhorse, some short, some tall. Like you've alluded too, the 240 is the most used at home.

I'll suggest that a 270 will meet your needs for the larger roasts and agree with above that you drop more coin on the 240 than the longer knife. I've had one 300mm that I used primarily for wedding cakes and would discourage it and anything anything longer for your application..

You specifically didn't ask for recs, but will offer that you would be well served with Wat Pro's in both lengths. Make sure you include weight as a charactristic in the longer knife. A 270 should go at least 165g for larger roasts, my favorites are +200g.

Another night at the office:

Eight Sujihiki’s. I like your style!

Sujihiki’s don’t seem to get much love around here, especially the short ones. As you say, the 240mm is an uber useful length.

There seems to be two groups of people emerging here. Those who like short sujihiki’s and see their use (or at least understand the desire for one).

And those that think them a waste, redundant with a gyuto, or an oddball that won’t be used much.

Different strokes for different folks I guess. That is okay though, I’m happy people are responding with their honest thoughts. It’s specifically what I asked for.

As for a 270mm being able to handle all my tasks. I had figured with some of the larger cuts a 300mm would be nice to have, if trying to slice in a single pull. Almost all the sujihiki’s I’m looking at are from Sakai, so most end up around 285-290mm edge length anyways.

I do like Watanabe’s, I am getting a nakiri from him (and maybe a custom chuka bocho), So I may pass on others. I like having some variety in the collection.

240 suji is a very specific tool. Obviously buy 2 if you want, but I doubt you will ever use one of them after the initial honeymoon period. Longer sujis make a lot more sense for home users than 240 sujis unless you are limited in space a lot. 240s have their use, but most home users don't need them.

I hear you with the honeymoon period. Time will tell, but at this point I think I’d end up using a 240mm sujihiki for around 95% if my slicing tasks.

Also note, the sujihiki I’m looking at is close to being a gyuhiki.

The problem with this question is that everybody will answer according to their preferences! You don't need permission to do what you want to do!

It is all terribly personal but for what it is worth... i agree with @HumbleHomeCook, @Barmoley. If you have the space buy (only) the longer suji. The 240mm is rather specialised for a home cook.

I know you wanted to steer the conversation away from gyutos... But unless your meals are continually dominated by preparation where the height of a gyuto would be cumbersome (or the length of a long suji).... wouldn't switching knives be more cumbersome? Each to their own... I'd rather be occasionally mildly inconvenienced by a small amount of extra height than change knives. Switching knives is more cleaning and faffing around. None of which are terribly costly but they aren't necessary either - so clearly I am lazy...

Just throwing it out there... but maaaaybe you'd have more fun per dollar spent by experimenting with different daily drivers**??



** Edit: by daily drivers I mean general prep: chef knives, gyutos, santokus, nakiris and chinese cleavers.



Those who use Sujis as a daily driver are likely in a minority! I imagine more people use petties as a daily...

Yes, everyone does have their preferences, and I did ask for them.

As I’ve mention (although it’s getting buried in the thread now), the sujihiki I’m looking at is darn near a gyuhiki. I’m not sure if this will sway peoples opinion. But I also don’t want this to turn into a gyuto vs sujihiki vs gyuhiki thread. I was trying to keep it focused on the idea of having two different lengths of the same type of knife.

Many people seem to have multiple gyutos. Even many of the same length. So having two different length sujihiki’s doesn’t seem that crazy to me.

At this point, I think I just need to order the knife and hold it in my hands. Then I can decide for myself I like the size.

In terms of those who use sujihiki’s as their daily drivers, apparently this is becoming popular amoungs chefs in European Michelin star restaurants. From what I’m reading, many are only bringing two knives to work: a petty/utility knife in the 130-180mm range, and a short sujihiki in the 210-240mm range. Many seem to be liking the precision the sujihiki’s bring.

P.S. Nice avatar

 

[Luftmensch]

As I’ve mention (although it’s getting buried in the thread now), the sujihiki I’m looking at is darn near a gyuhiki. I’m not sure if this will sway peoples opinion.

The only person's opinion you need to sway is yours!

Many people seem to have multiple gyutos. Even many of the same length. So having two different length sujihiki’s doesn’t seem that crazy to me.

This is a forum for gearheads. We're all here because we like knives. That interest far exceeds necessity - which is, frankly, pretty low! By the standards of this forum, multiple knifes of the same length is pretty normal. People are exploring different makers, steels, grinds... profiles... You'll even find people with multiple of the same knife!! None of this is 'crazy' if it interests you... yet, most times it isnt necessary or practical either...

Do what makes you happy! Or what you want to do... We can't tell you what that is. And our opinions don't matter much in that context either.

 

[deltaplex]

I''m a bit suji stupid, I think there are about 8 running around here to include a 210 for charcuterie, a 240 for portioning the easy stuff, a few 270's and two custom 285s that I use in professional applications. The longer ones include some laser, some workhorse, some short, some tall. Like you've alluded too, the 240 is the most used at home.

I'll suggest that a 270 will meet your needs for the larger roasts and agree with above that you drop more coin on the 240 than the longer knife. I've had one 300mm that I used primarily for wedding cakes and would discourage it and anything anything longer for your application..

You specifically didn't ask for recs, but will offer that you would be well served with Wat Pro's in both lengths. Make sure you include weight as a charactristic in the longer knife. A 270 should go at least 165g for larger roasts, my favorites are +200g.

Another night at the office:View attachment 193025

I think something's pretty wrong with that salmon...

 

[mengwong]

View attachment 192978

 

[fimbulvetr]

Seven sujihiki here and two yanagiba. I work as a butcher, so I can almost justify many of these. I like the three 210mm sujis for precise cuts and for slicing a thick strip (sirloin in EU) steak or duck magret for two. For a picanha or rib steak or pork roast, I likely reach for a 240mm. For the twice a year I cook a pork shoulder, rib roast, etc, I break out one of the 270mm from my work roll. I leave the 285mm at work because it’s bulletproof-but-sharp. I use the laser 300mm and the 300 yangai for fish.

The 180mm yanagiba is a trimming & dicing beast, especially with a < 5,000 grit edge on it.

If I had to have just the one, I’d go with a heavy 270mm, but i could see a 240mm and 300mm combo working, so long as the 300mm isn’t too whippy. I like a laser for crusty proteins, but not so much with thick or tall ones. For something like a rib roast, I want a more assertive knife. As always, your mileage may vary.

 

[chefwp]

Interesting thread. I had similar train of thought when I started with a 270 and then added a 210. If I had it to do all over I think of stay with the 210 but wish I had gotten a 300. The 270 handles flank steak, turkey breasts and other large roasts, the 200 comed out for pork tenderloins, duck, and other smaller cuts.

This also made me curious about the actual lengths from heel to tip, turns out they are 261 and 200.

 

[nickw_]

but

Seven sujihiki here and two yanagiba. I work as a butcher, so I can almost justify many of these. I like the three 210mm sujis for precise cuts and for slicing a thick strip (sirloin in EU) steak or duck magret for two. For a picanha or rib steak or pork roast, I likely reach for a 240mm. For the twice a year I cook a pork shoulder, rib roast, etc, I break out one of the 270mm from my work roll. I leave the 285mm at work because it’s bulletproof-but-sharp. I use the laser 300mm and the 300 yangai for fish.

The 180mm yanagiba is a trimming & dicing beast, especially with a < 5,000 grit edge on it.

If I had to have just the one, I’d go with a heavy 270mm, but i could see a 240mm and 300mm combo working, so long as the 300mm isn’t too whippy. I like a laser for crusty proteins, but not so much with thick or tall ones. For something like a rib roast, I want a more assertive knife. As always, your mileage may vary.

Thank you for sharing your experience with practical examples.

To be honest, I have wavered on getting a single 270mm, or the 240mm/300mm combo. As for the price of two knife knives I can get one honyaki 270mm, and that certainly is appealing!

However, I have near made up my mind, I want a 240mm & 300mm. Best of both worlds. 240mm gyuhiki for daily work, 300mm for when I need every inch I can get.