At what price point do diminishing returns start to kick in?

[Gongoozler]

I’m looking to get myself a really, really, really nice knife. I’m willing to spend up to $500 USD, but I don’t want to pass the point of diminishing returns.

Im a home cook, cooking 7 days a week, 2-3 meals most days. Cooking for a party of 8 every Sunday.

This knife would be a gyuto (240mm preferred), a k-tip gyuto, or a bunka.

Is there a general price point that’s typically a sweet spot?

 

[MSicardCutlery]

Probably around $300-$500 in most cases. Beyond that you're likely going to be paying mostly for aesthetics. There are some exceptions though, like the fully stone finished PM steel knives made by @Blank Blades.

 

[Just a DK]

What he said.

*going do a small edit that most special grinds (s-grinds, fullers, ladder, etc etc) that specifically deal with food release often get higher then that. with a very few exceptions.

 

[Rangen]

I’m looking to get myself a really, really, really nice knife. I’m willing to spend up to $500 USD, but I don’t want to pass the point of diminishing returns.

That's a great price range in which to give yourself a large number of wonderful options.

Once you start measuring diminishing returns by the size of your smile when you use the knife, though, things can get really expensive.

 

[azn_knives_4l]

I think it depends on if the user is trained or not? Kinda like how only audiophiles can tell the difference between really nice gear.

 

[refcast]

Max value of a gyuto is a japanese monosteel with convexing, probably Seki made, $100-200. Then another curve with slightly lower rate of quality/price increase up to $300-500 as said before. After that it's mostly aesthetic or exotic wear resistant steels, or other high labor process. Sweet spot is whatever you make it, some weird people like me buy old knives -- my sweet spot is usually $50-$100 very old japanese knives, often old japanese monosteel gyuto for this 240mm gyuto case. But in general, regular new retail or maker stuff, yeah the above.

 

[Just a DK]

I think it depends on if the user is trained or not? Kinda like how only audiophiles can tell the difference between really nice gear.

I mean there are people here who claim a honyaki feels different on the board... I think similar to audiophiles... money has a noise of its own...

 

[unnamed]

I mean there are people here who claim a honyaki feels different on the board... I think similar to audiophiles... money has a noise of its own...

I have been trying out different honyaki yannigibas and I still feel like my 200 $ non honyaki Tsukuji Masamoto out performs the Tatsuo Ikeda, Genkai masakuni, kenichi shiraki, masamoto sonhoten honyaki knives that I bought... . Only took a few thousand dollars to realize that the only real difference is the hamon lines

 

[Just a DK]

I have been trying out different honyaki yannigibas and I still feel like my 200 $ non honyaki Tsukuji Masamoto out performs the Tatsuo Ikeda, Genkai masakuni, kenichi shiraki, masamoto sonhoten honyaki knives that I bought... . Only took a few thousand dollars to realize that the only real difference is the hamon lines

Well, I mean, I can't say that the only thing about a knife should be performance.

Its nice to have a tool that is beautiful / has a great story behind it.

 

[unnamed]

Well, I mean, I can't say that the only thing about a knife should be performance.

Its nice to have a tool that is beautiful / has a great story behind it.

That's true, I do like to stare at them a lot haha

 

[nhb22]

I'd say it really depends on what you are looking for in a knife. There isn't an universal sweet spot. I have made this recommendation to people before many times - if you are a home cook looking for great cutting performance and low maintenance and you don't LOVE sharpening all the time, I don't see many knives in the market that would beat this at this price point:

https://www.cleancut.eu/butik/knifebrands/sukenari/gyuto_sukenari-sanmai-1-detail

If you want something that's easier to sharpen (but you need to sharpen more often), Kagekiyo ginsan is very very hard to beat if you can find one $300 or less somewhere.

 

[KasumiJLA]

I think you're going to have a very good choice available to you with this price range. It's gonna be fun!

I would say that the priority will be to find the geometry that suits you best. I have a $130 knife from Knife Japan that performs as well as a $600+ knife. On the other hand, the appearance is rustic and it is not what I would describe as visually pleasing. BUT I love using it and the geometry is really to my liking.

A beautiful knife doesn't mean it will perform well, and vice versa. But there is a very rewarding aspect of being able to use a tool that is totally to our taste visually too. I believe that with your budget you will be able to find the best of both worlds without problem!

 

[esoo]

The question of diminishing returns really comes down to a question of value.

How much value to you put into the work done to the knife?

A mirror polished honyaki will take more labour that some other wabi-sabi finished knife. It may not cut better but the aesthetics make it more expensive.

If you only consider makers from Japan that makes the numbers simpler. If you consider western makers it becomes harder to compare value as western makers have different costs that they must consider, which get factored into the labour hours out into a knife.

When you get upto the $500 range, pretty much every knife will be a performer and most every maker will perform differently. The only person that can decide if that has passed the point of diminishing returns is you.

 

[gentiscid]

Mazaki kurouchi 240 mm White steel #2 Gyuto.

Pick one with a nice handle, not the one in magnolia wood and ugly walnut ferrule! And you save half of the budget and have a great knife at your service.

Unpopular opinion: Mazaki should be the new Tojiro starter knife!

 

[aporigine]

I mean there are people here who claim a honyaki feels different on the board... I think similar to audiophiles... money has a noise of its own...

As a recovering audiophile, I can say that I can hear differences in audio components, but that the difference was almost never large. (The exception that blew me away was a system at a store in Berkeley that ran Audio Physic Medea speakers, an odd flagship design that used unusual drivers and sold for north if $50k.)

Even so, I found myself chasing minute perceived improvements to a pretty steep point of the value curve.

With knives (though not swords), perceptible value increases can be had for cheaper. For me personally, the inflection point is around $300 for full-sized knives and $150-200 for petties.

 

[Delat]

It really depends on what’s important to you, but in general I agree that under $500 will get you a pretty great knife.

I could’ve (should’ve) just stopped with Yoshikane which I think is around $300. I also could’ve just stopped with Myojin, around $350. Also could’ve just stopped with Birgersson around $400. Or Wakui for around $300.

If my house was robbed tomorrow and I could only afford to buy one replacement knife in that price range, I’d probably try to grab a drop from Eddworks who’s generally in the <$400 range for his regular stuff.

But yeah, when I’m feeling all special I grab the Kamon or Newham and cooking chicken fried rice on a Tuesday feels like a freaking event.

 

[timebard]

There are a bunch of inflection points in the price/performance curve. I would argue the first one is around $100-$130, where you can get a CCK slicer or Kyohei Shindo. Not beautiful, not super solid feel in hand or amazing ergonomics, and CCK steel is not great, but cutting performance on both of those is excellent.

If you want to try some definitive laser, midweight, or workhorse gyutos as well as having a little more choice of construction and steel, you can get some excellent examples in the $250ish range - Ashi, Yoshikane (on sale from Phil), or Okubo would fit those three buckets really well.

Then around $350-500 you get some of the better value western makers with really impressive cutting performance and also considerably more refined craftsmanship - Eddworks, Knot, Spåre, Herde, Birgersson - and also more accessible Myojin stuff.

There are makers/knives past that point that I think are great, but pretty firmly into the severely diminishing returns territory. Kippington and Shihan monosteels are maybe exceptions? But if you're patient or not massively picky I think you can get 99% of the way there for quite a bit less than they charge.

 

[sumis]

totally depends on the parameters considered. if the question is, when will food on the plate, the cooking result, start to suffer, i'd say at 40$. but if it is sashimi on the plate, i'd say at 150$. if it is prepping mirepoix for 4 hrs, i'd say at 80$. if i'ts breaking down fish … etc …

.

 

[Jovidah]

The biggest challenge is figuring out your preferences. There's plenty of awesome stuff to be had under 500, the trick is to find the one that works best for you. Figuring that out is often a bit costlier...

 

[Benuser]

The biggest challenge is figuring out your preferences. There's plenty of awesome stuff to be had under 500, the trick is to find the one that works best for you. Figuring that out is often s bit costlier...

Exactly. There are so many options you may want to explore before spending a relatively high amount. Profile, geometry, weight, balance, length, width, steel type, hardness, handle type. With every new knife it takes some time to get used to it. A slightly different balance of what you're used to, a just slightly higher or lower tip, all may feel uncomfortable with the first use, all factors you get used to within a few days of home use, perhaps by slightly adjusting your technique. But it were a shame if you spend a serious amount of money on a great knife that just doesn't suit you.
On the other hand, you may recuperate a large part by selling here on the BST section.

 

[dehory]

Kippington and Shihan

This is where I’d locate the sweet spot beyond which you’re starting to pay extra for intangibles and frills. I’d also put in that category Harbeer, Dalman, and a few others...

 

[MrHiggins]

To the OP: what knives have you tried? What aspects of those knives have you liked and where did you think performance and/or aesthetics and/or comfort could have been improved?

To your question, after churning through dozens of knives, from pretty cheap to pretty expensive, I think (for me) the returns begin to diminish at around $350 for Japanese knives and $500 for western makers.

But discovering your preferences is a prerequisite to determining where the inflection point is for you. You may determine that a hamon line is your most sought after trait in a knife, then your diminishing return number will be in the thousands.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

First things first, do you sharpen your knives and if so how and if not, what is your plan for that?

For what you describe as use-case, I'd say very good candidates for starting out are:

https://japanesechefsknife.com/collections/jck-original-kagayaki

https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/kaeru-kasumi-stainless-gyuto-240mm/

https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/munetoshi-kurouchi-gyuto-240mm/

Of course there are lots of others but these three recommendations are solid starters.

The JCK Kagayaki gives you a western (yo) handle option and you can get it in either stainless or carbon. Both options are mono construction. If your frame of reference is German-style knives, these knives will blow your mind. They are very, very slicey. Overall the fit and finish is very good with the exception of sharp corners on the spine and choil. Very common under $300 and nothing that a few minutes with sandpaper can't resolve. The one downside I would see to extended prep is the spine is a little thin and that might make for a sore index finger. No issue at all for regular meal prep but might be noticeable doing your Sunday gig but really no different than most Wusthof, Henkles, etc.

The Kaeru is another stainless option and a forum favorite. I don't have firsthand experience with them but they are often recommended. I would caution that I have heard these are somewhat thick in the grind.

The Munetoshi is another strong forum, and personal, favorite. Knives from the Sanjo region tend to have thicker spines and good taper. This makes them comfortable, robust feeling, but still very slicey. This is an all carbon knife (core and iron cladding) so care must be taken although it really isn't a big deal. These too will need attention on the spine and choil to relieve the sharp edges but the width of the spine at the handle makes long prep much nicer.

You can get a LOT of performance without dropping a ton of money. This allows you to find what you like as so many others have already mentioned.

I'd advise avoiding k-tips for starting out. I know they look cool when you're first getting going, I felt the same way. But k-tip gyutos tend to be much flatter and that combined with the distinct tip means limited rock chopping. The tip also tends to be fragile.

 

[esoo]

Here's an example of deciding on personal diminishing returns.

Same smith, same sharpener, different handle, different finish. These two knives would perform pretty much identically, but some would choose the ebony/mirror finish and some the teak handle. It would come down to what you value in a knife.

 

[esoo]

And to the OP: are you a righty or lefty? If you're a lefty, you need to work with a good shop to get a knife that will suit you. Many shops will list knives as ambidextrous (which is true) but the knife will perform vastly different for the left handed.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

OP, just for reference, I have six knives on my main-user rack right now and all of them were under $200.

 

[concernedparent]

I’m looking to get myself a really, really, really nice knife. I’m willing to spend up to $500 USD, but I don’t want to pass the point of diminishing returns.

Im a home cook, cooking 7 days a week, 2-3 meals most days. Cooking for a party of 8 every Sunday.

This knife would be a gyuto (240mm preferred), a k-tip gyuto, or a bunka.

Is there a general price point that’s typically a sweet spot?

I don't own any $500 knives but have some in the $300 range that many knife nerds consider the point of diminishing returns (Yoshikane, Wakui, mid-level Yoshikazu Tanaka). For me, I feel like the point for performance is much lower; my $125 Shiro Kamo or $150 Moritaka is about 90% of the way there. The biggest difference is the fit and finish. My mid range knives are basically flawless and a joy to look at, feel, and handle. It feels like functional art. Then you pick up the cheaper knives and it's like, oh it's a tool.

 

[aporigine]

To the OP: what knives have you tried? What aspects of those knives have you liked and where did you think performance and/or aesthetics and/or comfort could have been improved?

To your question, after churning through dozens of knives, from pretty cheap to pretty expensive, I think (for me) the returns begin to diminish at around $350 for Japanese knives and $500 for western makers.

But discovering your preferences is a prerequisite to determining where the inflection point is for you. You may determine that a hamon line is your most sought after trait in a knife, then your diminishing return number will be in the thousands.

This. Knives have so many tiny things about them that in one price range there is a sometimes bewildering variety of the overall package.

As a metaphor, some Porsche owners look down on Corvettes, and vice versa. (And then there are the Aston crowd, who have their own emotions about the above cars … and vice versa.) (And folks who happily drive a Shindo GT86. Or a Victorinox F250

This is one of the few hobbies where one can try all the hot rides for perhaps a thousand dollars, most of that being depreciation on BST. I’m about to get the culinary equivalent of a Gallardo in the mail … filling my tank with onions, mushrooms and the odd carrot at this time.

The Huayras and Veyrons of the handmade knife world are beyond me, but for now I’ll look at the Shig honyaki and Xerxes products with controlled envy and the knowledge that, as my technique on the stones improves, I can be 98% there.

 

[esoo]

To counterpoint what some others have said, most active knives are in the $450-$650 range. This is where I feel you get to the right balance of fit/finish/performance.

Every knife I've had at sub $200 was either badly defective out of the box (warped or overgrinds or both) or needed so much work that I'd have to spend so much on it to get it up to my standards it wasn't worth it.

 

[Delat]

I don't own any $500 knives but have some in the $300 range that many knife nerds consider the point of diminishing returns (Yoshikane, Wakui, mid-level Yoshikazu Tanaka). For me, I feel like the point for performance is much lower; my $125 Shiro Kamo or $150 Moritaka is about 90% of the way there. The biggest difference is the fit and finish. My mid range knives are basically flawless and a joy to look at, feel, and handle. It feels like functional art. Then you pick up the cheaper knives and it's like, oh it's a tool.

The nice thing about having knives that are well below your budget is that you don’t feel guilt or apprehension (or at least much less) when tuning/thinning to your personal preferences. There’s much less worrying about “omg I’ll never be able to sell this on BST after thinning it”.