Been a while since we had a Cleaver chat.

[Jville]

I have both and Sugimoto is nothing like a CCK slicer. In general, Japanese cleavers are much thicker and have more belly. Or they have awful full tang handles that completely ruin the balance. For whatever reason every Japanese maker (that I know of) is missing one or more crucial element that makes the CCK slicer so magical. I'd much rather live with the mediocre steel and sharpen it twice as often than compromise on geometry and balance, especially for five times the price.

Both of my Fujiyama cleavers are quite flat. My white #2 is even thinner BTE then my full CCK carbon. And eventhough my Takeda cleavers have sone curve I’m a huge fan. I use the small Takeda classic one a lot. One of my favorite knives. I have honestly really not used my large CCK. It’s just been kind of chilling in the drawer, but it is kind of newer, I guess. Just haven’t gotten around to using it much. I have a small stainless CCK one that I’ve owned much longer and it’s seen a lot more use. CCKs are great, but there are some really nice Chukas out there imho.

 

[spaceconvoy]

A visual demonstration of why this is a bad thing. And my cleaver only has a 3mm difference between tip and heel, half as much as @kot_blini's

 

[chefwp]

Any Chinese cleaver that could not smash garlic like that should be rendered down to its fundamental atoms, which can be used for another purpose, since they would have clearly failed at that one.

Seriously, what's depicted is utterly routine business for a Chinese cleaver.

btw, this was the answer I was hoping for. I used to nostalgically reach for my ancient Wusthof to rock chop with impunity whenever I needed to mince a **** ton (metric) of garlic, but the new(ish) cleaver has fully taken over as my tool of choice for doing that.

 

[stringer]

View attachment 150319
A visual demonstration of why this is a bad thing. And my cleaver only has a 3mm difference between tip and heel, half as much as @kot_blini's

The profile might not be ideal for your technique or whatever. But I doubt that the manufacturer or retailer would consider that cleaver defective based on a "short heel". I doubt that there tolerances are that tight. If OP is unhappy then they should see if the retailer would swap it for a different one. It's just not something I would consider a true defect.

 

[spaceconvoy]

The profile might not be ideal for your technique or whatever. But I doubt that the manufacturer or retailer would consider that cleaver defective based on a "short heel". I doubt that there tolerances are that tight. If OP is unhappy then they should see if the retailer would swap it for a different one. It's just not something I would consider a true defect.

That's like finding eight pellets of rat feces in a 2lb bag of flour and saying it's not a real problem because it falls within FDA guidelines. I'm sure the manufacturer doesn't consider this to be a defect, which is why they're being sold. I have no interest in the technical definition, but rather what should be acceptable or unacceptable to me as a user.

 

[stringer]

That's like finding eight pellets of rat feces in a 2lb bag of flour and saying it's not a real problem because it falls within FDA guidelines. I'm sure the manufacturer doesn't consider this to be a defect, which is why they're being sold. I have no interest in the technical definition, but rather what should be acceptable or unacceptable to me as a user.

I think your analogy is quite the stretch. Whether or not a knife suits you personally is not the same thing as a manufacturing defect. If the OP doesn't like the knife then they should try and return it or buy something else. But I wouldn't advise them to buy another CCK blind and expect any different outcome which seems to be partially what they were asking.

 

[tgfencer]

I flattened out the edge profile of a colleague's cleaver for him on a 120 SG. Took less than an hour or so. For sub-$150 cleavers, I would expect to have to do some adjustments to get something to my preference.

 

[tostadas]

I usually dont use the very heel of the blade, so having a slight relieve curve at that location helps for me. I think as long as the portions of the edge that you actually use (tip, mid, etc) are adequate, I wouldnt stress much.

 

[kot_blini]

I think your analogy is quite the stretch. Whether or not a knife suits you personally is not the same thing as a manufacturing defect. If the OP doesn't like the knife then they should try and return it or buy something else. But I wouldn't advise them to buy another CCK blind and expect any different outcome which seems to be partially what they were asking.

Yes, this is pretty much what I was asking. Partially for the benefit of people in a similar position as I was, seeking out info on what they’d expect from a CCK 1302, but also to see whether I should contact Action Sales (maybe worth a try, but they sold the product they meant to sell). I’m a pretty green sharpener (I've just been practicing edges with a King 1200 I bought a couple weeks ago) so having a relatively standard profile to build off of is likely more of a boon to me than most others here.

While there’s disagreement on whether it should be acceptable, the consensus is that it isn’t unusual. People can come to their own conclusions about how much it matters to them, maybe it will even suit them! But they should be prepared to do more than mess with the fit and finish and put on a basic fresh edge.

For my use case, if I’d been aware of this beforehand I would have saved some cash and picked up a dexter russell with the understanding that I'd need to thin it. Or something from the wok shop if I wanted it to be taller, with the understanding I’d likely have more inconsistency in the blade. But I wouldn't have paid extra for a CCK in hopes of a flatter/more consistent blade. As things stand, I think the high heel will continue to feel awkward for me so I'll need to raise the front edge. I’ll probably be fine, I just bit off a little more than I anticipated

At the very least, my mistaken assumptions have been cleared up. So thank you everyone!

 

[hmh]

I bought my CCK 1302 at the CCK shop in Toronto a few months ago. Mine has the same curve at the heel. The 3 or 4 other 1302s I handled at the shop all had the high heel too. Could it be done on purpose or definitely botched grinding?

 

[stringer]

I bought my CCK 1302 at the CCK shop in Toronto a few months ago. Mine has the same curve at the heel. The 3 or 4 other 1302s I handled at the shop all had the high heel too. Could it be done on purpose or definitely botched grinding?

I don't think it's botched. I haven't had a CCK that I know of. But I've bought a lot of Chinese cleavers on eBay, in various Chinatowns, and at Flea markets. There's a lot of variability in the profiles. The OPs is definitely in the tolerances of what I would call "normal" for a Chinese cleaver. I only have one example right now because I usually just clean them up a little and then gift them to people. And of course the one example I have now is the opposite with a skinny toe and fat heel. My nakiri has a high heel though. And I have no problems rock chopping with it. Sometimes if chopping is making my wrist hurt I find that I can adjust the height of the cutting board to relieve the pain.

 

[dyungim]

Daovua: 200x95mm, 330g
CCK: 210x86mm, 253g
as seen here I was wrong: the CCK is way thinner. But the DV cuts like it is. I tried to get a sense of the geometry with a reference straight and it seems to be asymmetrically convex. Also it seems lighter than it is; maybe the weird shaped handle gives it better balance? The stainless Yang Jiang is only 30g heavier but feels like much more.

How heavy is the Yang Jiang? And you are talking about this one, correct?: “Yang Jiang” Cleaver | The Wok Shop

 

[GorillaGrunt]

I think that’s the one yes, 366g

 

[kpham12]

I've had the Sugimoto standard #6 and stainless 4030, wanted to like them for their steels but never loved them. Can't stand the belly, and too blade heavy for my taste. Currently happy with my stainless CCK 1912. The thinness and balance are perfect, and I love the handle, surprisingly.

Still halfheartedly on the lookout for a fancy custom thin slicer. Watanabe has a really nice looking one in the Specials section of his site. Problem is most makers slap two slabs of wood on a full tang handle, but the balance never feels right to me.

Finding the King Neo 800 has made me more content to settle with the CCK. No longer a pain to sharpen, and has the perfect amount of tooth for its mediocre stainless. Sometimes you just need the right stone for a particular steel. Easier than wishing for a knife that doesn't exist.

Do you still have the stainless Sugimoto? Can you tell me how the the Sugimoto cm4030 stainless holds up in terms of edge retention? The steel is just described as “chromium molybdenum” and I was wondering if it’s similar to entry level Japanese stainless like a Mac or Misono or if it’s a bit harder? I have a couple VG-10 cleavers with good retention, but I’ve been meaning to try a different stainless.

 

[spaceconvoy]

Do you still have the stainless Sugimoto? Can you tell me how the the Sugimoto cm4030 stainless holds up in terms of edge retention? The steel is just described as “chromium molybdenum” and I was wondering if it’s similar to entry level Japanese stainless like a Mac or Misono or if it’s a bit harder? I have a couple VG-10 cleavers with good retention, but I’ve been meaning to try a different stainless.

I couldn't tell you. I haven't used it enough to comment on edge retention, and don't really intend to. I can say it seems to sharpen more easily than my Misono moly, for what it's worth.

 

[blokey]

I think there is a misunderstanding about cleavers here, the difference between most Japanese made cleaver and Chinese made cleaver is not their thickness or their belly, it lies in their grind. The CCK 1302/1303 and KF1912 that's popular among a lot of people is a style of cleaver called Sang Dao/桑刀, it is mostly used in Cantonese cuisine but gained popularity nation wide. The characters of Sang Daos are their thin grind and narrower rectangular shape with a flatter edge than most. Since the early Chinese immigrants to west has been overwhelmingly Cantonese and Honkongese, they bring their cuisine and their knives, it become the standard Chinese cleaver, the Dexter cleaver thats popular in North Americas is based on the Cantonese Shape.

In contrast, while there are Cantonese immigrants to Japan, Chinese cuisine regained popularity in Japan after WW 2 after many Japanese soldiers and settlers returned from Northern China, brought with them things like Gyoza. One of the people who reshaped Chuka Ryori (Japanese Chinese cuisine) is Chen kenmin and his son Chen Kenichi, both of them specialized in Sichuanese cuisine and use Sichuanese style cleaver subsequently.

Now back to the Japanese made cleavers, most of them are modeled after a more workhorse styled knife called Pian Dao/片刀, which is used in most regional Chinese cuisine, some have more belly some does not, some has rounded head or heel depends on the region. The popularity of Northern and Sichuanese Chinese cuisine made Pian Dao much more popular in professional kitchen, most of Japanese produced Chinese cleavers are made in this style. The main difference is that high end Japanese cleavers will usually have a convex grind at the edge like Sugimoto and Ginga, whereas traditional Chinese Cleavers will have a full V flat grind.

There is also a cleaver that's more ubitiqous in China, Zhan Qie Dao /斩切刀 or Wen Wu Dao/文武刀, those are truly all purpose cleaver with different angle at front and the back for veggies and small bones. However like most things all purpose they excel at neither.

Here's some pictures
Typical Sang Dao

A sub variation of Sang Dao that's specialized for slicing beef

Sichuanese Pian Dao by Deng Jia with some belly

A Beijinese Zhan Qie Dao by Wang Ma Zi

A Shanghaiese Pian Dao with rounded head

Traditional Chinese grind

 

[blokey]

BTW here's some of my cleavers, the Misono and Dengjia might be up for sale soon

 

[tostadas]

It's been about 2 weeks using this Tanaka cleaver in blue#1, and it looks like it's going to be putting some of my favorite gyutos out of a home soon.

 

[Rangen]

When you have excellent Chinese cleavers, gyutos are only for pure slicing, when the help that weight brings is not important.

 

[btbyrd]

Can someone who knows Chinese contact CCK and tell them to take that f**king QR code off their blade and to go back to the old stamps?

 

[tostadas]

Can someone who knows Chinese contact CCK and tell them to take that f**king QR code off their blade and to go back to the old stamps?

Is it screened on? How difficult would it be to sand off?

 

[btbyrd]

Looks like it's pretty difficult to remove and that you'll have to **** up the KU to get it off of there.

 

[Rangen]

Looks like it's pretty difficult to remove and that you'll have to **** up the KU to get it off of there.

Yeah, this is just how I feel about cars with a screen in the dashboard. I don't think sanding those off works either.

 

[blokey]

Can someone who knows Chinese contact CCK and tell them to take that f**king QR code off their blade and to go back to the old stamps?

I doubt they would care anyway, they are always more of a restraunt supply store than dedicated workshop.

 

[M1k3]

Looks like it's pretty difficult to remove and that you'll have to **** up the KU to get it off of there.

Use a sharpie?

 

[Jville]

It's been about 2 weeks using this Tanaka cleaver in blue#1, and it looks like it's going to be putting some of my favorite gyutos out of a home soon.
View attachment 163558

When you have excellent Chinese cleavers, gyutos are only for pure slicing, when the help that weight brings is not important.

This is where I’m at. I find myself just feeling like I have almost no use for gyutos. But the “problem” is I have some nice gyutos and they are somewhat of a distraction. I am way more drawn to using cleavers like almost exclusively. I have already sold a lot of my gyutos, but I have the urge to basically sell them all but say maybe 2 or 3. For example, I recently got the Kamon massdrop and I got a small used sugimoto carbon cleaver after that. I’ve used the sugimoto more and have barely touched the Kamon. The Kamon would be one that I would keep if I were to just keep a couple, but I’m just saying I find that now I have a cleaver for pretty much anything and just want to use cleavers. It was a process for me it didn’t happen overnight and I still use gyutos quite a bit, but I’ve definitely found that I just prefer cleavers.

 

[M1k3]

This is where I’m at. I find myself just feeling like I have almost no use for gyutos. But the “problem” is I have some nice gyutos and they are somewhat of a distraction. I am way more drawn to using cleavers like almost exclusively. I have already sold a lot of my gyutos, but I have the urge to basically sell them all but say maybe 2 or 3. For example, I recently got the Kamon massdrop and I got a small used sugimoto carbon cleaver after that. I’ve used the sugimoto more and have barely touched the Kamon. The Kamon would be one that I would keep if I were to just keep a couple, but I’m just saying I find that now I have a cleaver for pretty much anything and just want to use cleavers. It was a process for me it didn’t happen overnight and I still use gyutos quite a bit, but I’ve definitely found that I just prefer cleavers.

BLASPHEMOUS!!

 

[kpham12]

It's been about 2 weeks using this Tanaka cleaver in blue#1, and it looks like it's going to be putting some of my favorite gyutos out of a home soon.
View attachment 163558

What are the dimensions/weight on this thing? Looks crazy nice!

 

[tostadas]

What are the dimensions/weight on this thing? Looks crazy nice!

215 x 93mm, 420g
3.3mm spine out of the handle and tapering
Here's the photo before any patina

 

[stringer]

This is where I’m at. I find myself just feeling like I have almost no use for gyutos. But the “problem” is I have some nice gyutos and they are somewhat of a distraction. I am way more drawn to using cleavers like almost exclusively. I have already sold a lot of my gyutos, but I have the urge to basically sell them all but say maybe 2 or 3. For example, I recently got the Kamon massdrop and I got a small used sugimoto carbon cleaver after that. I’ve used the sugimoto more and have barely touched the Kamon. The Kamon would be one that I would keep if I were to just keep a couple, but I’m just saying I find that now I have a cleaver for pretty much anything and just want to use cleavers. It was a process for me it didn’t happen overnight and I still use gyutos quite a bit, but I’ve definitely found that I just prefer cleavers.

I bought about 20 eBay/flea market cleavers in the 5 years BC (before COVID). I fixed them up and gave them away as gifts. I hadn't bought any since then. But a few months ago I saw one at an antique store. And then the other day I pulled the trigger on an eBay one. Here we go again!