Looks pretty sweet. The major disadvantage of buying used cleavers and fixing them up is I never get to use them brand new. Look forward to hearing your thoughts on it.
Been a while since we had a Cleaver chat.
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I think my thoughts are probably pretty similar to what you've posted previously. Hopefully people can make sense of my ramblings below...
Pros: The steel! It is decently hard, easy to sharpen and actually holds a good edge for shirogami in my opinion. I've also been pretty rough and gone straight for pumpkins and generally thwacked it into the board when I've gotten a bit enthusiastic and it's held up fine. I've been sharpening more to play around and get a feel for how it sharpens but it really hasn't needed it. The steel and cladding are reactive but nothing unusual for an iron clad knife.
The overall geometry is pretty nice. Only some wedging on the proper dense stuff like pumpkins and hard sweet potato. Seems like it has some very slight convex on the primary bevel. Food sticks a bit especially when slicing and dicing finer but I think that's pretty par for the course with a cleaver.
The height and weight are positives too and feel more natural than I would've thought. I like bigger nakiris and this feels familiar enough. I'm still learning to let the weight do the work but I don't find it a workout using it as a home cook. The edge has a very slight curve which allows for a slight rock even when push cutting which is fairly natural movement for me. The height of the blade is also awesome for the ability to just scoop up everything and transfer. Having a proper tip/corner is nice too.
Cons: There is only one major con imo and that is with the fit and finish. I'm not talking super rough f+f and there are no glaring faults or anything that really degrades the performance but for the price I feel it should be better. No rounded choil or spine and even some small stray bits of metal on the front end. Easy to fix with some sandpaper but def could be better (still need to do more work here). The edge itself is also very slightly curved. When cutting it's not not noticeable and I only realised when I was scooping something off a very warped board with the edge and board combined making a gap in the centre.
Just some random thoughts to add on here. I think the taped fake shinogi looked very average and have used some sandpaper to blend it into the rest of the blade. The real bevel actually starts lower down and at some stage I will probably thin and raise it up to give some better performance when cutting dense veg. I've also dirtied the handle through use and sharpening. This was probably inevitable over time but the light wood looked pretty nice when new and clean. Should probably give it a bit of an oil too. Feels like it has some texture now and really good in hand though.
Overall though the steel and shape/geo are the main selling points and I hate how much I like this. I've barely touched my big gyutos since owning it. It feels solid in a good way and I can use it easily on a smaller board as it's shorter than a 240 gyuto. Again I love it but at rrp it doesn't get full marks. I've seen the Sakai Kikumori Gokujyo cleaver which looks to have better fit and finish from online pics. If the steel and geometry are as good as this then it may be a better buy for a higher end Japanese cleaver for the price.
Yup, grind and steel is pretty nice, could use a little thinning higher up the grind at the “shoulder” to make cutting through really big dense product a little smoother.
The fit and finish on all these cleavers is usually pretty meh, even the pricier ones. Migoto cleavers look good and Konosuke cleavers probably have nice f&f, but even then, I wouldn’t expect it to be on the level of one of their gyutos.
I also like the look of the wood used for the handle, but it does get dirty pretty easily, like ho wood. I’ve found oil doesn’t actually help much, might need a layer of varnish or lacquer to really seal it.
@anko, how’s this Gokujyo cleaver been holding up? Looks like a nice cutter after thinning.
I think if you used a hardening oil, like Tung (tru-oil, etc.), that you'd see a significant improvement in it's ability to stay clean.
Is it an improvement over just regular mineral oil?
tostadas
Hobbyist / Craftsman
Tru oil or lacquer will seal it but can feel plasticky. Tung oil is a nice option, or my personal favorite is hardwax oil, both of which will give protection but also retain the texture of the wood
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tostadas
Hobbyist / Craftsman
Yes if you're looking for a drying oil. Mineral oil never really dries
As said above: yes it's a significant improvement; I use tung to finish all of mine at the moment.
Love to see a well used cleaver. Nice cladding line
Interesting since the wa-handled version appears to address most of these things. Check out the choil! Tempting…
Jville
I used to work in a Mexican restaurant
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The F&F on my wa handled migoto is stellar.
- Do you like Chinese cleavers?
- Why yes, this *is* the cleaver thread isn't it?
- Touche. But what of the handles? Do you admire their stark functionality?
- I do!
- But despair of their plain and ugly looks?
- Yes, that's me!!
- And don't want to faff around trying to make your own?
- NO. HARD WORK. BOOO!!!
- Well then, buckle in. For I am here to help...
I've made quite a few handles for Cai dao before; it isn't desperately difficult to knock the old one off, snap a bit of the tang off, and make a new handle in whatever shape or style you want. Here's a nice one on a 1302:
But not everybody will have the kit or inclination to do that. And I only do it on slicing cleavers, as bone cleavers might exert too much shock force on a hidden tang handle like that. So things like my Kau kong still have their boring light wood handles, in the picture below I've given it a quick coarse sanding:
What I'm about to do that isn't new or revolutionary in any way - people do it to wood all the time, including I'm sure many people here. But this is the first time I've tried it, and I think it's worked quite well for very little effort. I'm going to 'ebonize' it; which is a reaction between iron acetate and tannin, turning it darker, you can actually make it almost black depending on the type of wood and its tannin content.
To make iron acetate we're going to use these things which everybody has a packet of under the sink, but never uses because they're nasty and little bits of metal get everywhere:
I kinda pulled a couple apart to get rid of the pink soap bit, which probably wouldn't help, and then cover in white vinegar, leave for a few days or a week, and chemistry happens. You can speed chemistry up by heating stuff - if you simmered them together it'd probably only take a couple of hours, but the smell of boiling vinegar isn't very nice:
Then you just brush it on your wood really, but there are a number of ways you can increase the effect beforehand if you want. Tannins are in a lot of natural products; leaves, wood, and the skins of fruit in particular, it's the stuff that makes your mouth go dry when drinking heavy red wine, or strong tea. So if we do something like this:
Then we can soak some of the tea tannins into the handle first, before applying the vinegar x steel wool iron acetate solution. Bit of banana skin or walnut shell in that cup of tea would probably ramp it up further. Red wine would work too, and doesn't make the handle red.
Anyhow, at the end of it... nothing happened. So I concluded I'd done something wrong, threw away my vinegar and steel wool mixture (stupidly), and went off to watch the rugby. Coming back to it at half time though - it had actually worked, and I think quite well. It certainly looks better than before, and the fact that a chinese cleaver handle is round means that the grain on the wood gives you kinda cool wavy-circular patterns too:
So that's how to ebonize stuff. And I'm sure if anyone else tries they'll probably get far better results than my first effort here. But I quite like it, and will be doing again soon I think.
- Why yes, this *is* the cleaver thread isn't it?
- Touche. But what of the handles? Do you admire their stark functionality?
- I do!
- But despair of their plain and ugly looks?
- Yes, that's me!!
- And don't want to faff around trying to make your own?
- NO. HARD WORK. BOOO!!!
- Well then, buckle in. For I am here to help...
I've made quite a few handles for Cai dao before; it isn't desperately difficult to knock the old one off, snap a bit of the tang off, and make a new handle in whatever shape or style you want. Here's a nice one on a 1302:
But not everybody will have the kit or inclination to do that. And I only do it on slicing cleavers, as bone cleavers might exert too much shock force on a hidden tang handle like that. So things like my Kau kong still have their boring light wood handles, in the picture below I've given it a quick coarse sanding:
What I'm about to do that isn't new or revolutionary in any way - people do it to wood all the time, including I'm sure many people here. But this is the first time I've tried it, and I think it's worked quite well for very little effort. I'm going to 'ebonize' it; which is a reaction between iron acetate and tannin, turning it darker, you can actually make it almost black depending on the type of wood and its tannin content.
To make iron acetate we're going to use these things which everybody has a packet of under the sink, but never uses because they're nasty and little bits of metal get everywhere:
I kinda pulled a couple apart to get rid of the pink soap bit, which probably wouldn't help, and then cover in white vinegar, leave for a few days or a week, and chemistry happens. You can speed chemistry up by heating stuff - if you simmered them together it'd probably only take a couple of hours, but the smell of boiling vinegar isn't very nice:
Then you just brush it on your wood really, but there are a number of ways you can increase the effect beforehand if you want. Tannins are in a lot of natural products; leaves, wood, and the skins of fruit in particular, it's the stuff that makes your mouth go dry when drinking heavy red wine, or strong tea. So if we do something like this:
Then we can soak some of the tea tannins into the handle first, before applying the vinegar x steel wool iron acetate solution. Bit of banana skin or walnut shell in that cup of tea would probably ramp it up further. Red wine would work too, and doesn't make the handle red.
Anyhow, at the end of it... nothing happened. So I concluded I'd done something wrong, threw away my vinegar and steel wool mixture (stupidly), and went off to watch the rugby. Coming back to it at half time though - it had actually worked, and I think quite well. It certainly looks better than before, and the fact that a chinese cleaver handle is round means that the grain on the wood gives you kinda cool wavy-circular patterns too:
So that's how to ebonize stuff. And I'm sure if anyone else tries they'll probably get far better results than my first effort here. But I quite like it, and will be doing again soon I think.
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After my ebonizing victory above I've been doing a little bit of work on that knife. Because a Kau Kong I think, has the potential to be pretty much perfect: The cleaver in the mind of god. But first it needs tweaking because god, as you can imagine, has very exacting standards...
The spine is 'only' 7mm or so going out of the handle:
With little distal taper, and height from about 10cm at the heel up to around 12cm at the end/tip, which makes it very forward balanced. The grind was a proper thick bone cleaver grind, which is all I've used it for to date, and it didn't get particularly sharp. But the height means it could potentially be held with an extended pinch grip in the way that you would a slicing cleaver. I'm not going to try to make it a true slicer; I still want it going through bones as a chopper, just a bit more general purpose, like you see in Chinese restaurant kitchens.
So I'm going to thin it differentially, only slightly at the heel, and moreso as it goes down to the tip. We've got; Norton Crystolon Coarse n Fine, Shapton Pro 220, Glass 500, and a Washita:
The SP220 btw is a really superb stone, I picked it up off BST recently because someone was selling some atoma sheets I wanted and had that as well. I'm surprised they don't get more love, I actually ended up using that more than the Crystolon.
The thinning revealed something interesting, to me anyway:
Whether they're thicker for bones, or thinner for slicing; in my experience most Chinese cleavers do not have this kind of complex grind. They basically go straight down to an edge, whereas this has a noticeable proper bevel.
As I say - I'm not trying to make it hyper thin, just knock some of the fatness out as it approaches the tip. The heel I've touched up a bit:
Tapering down to this at the end:
That's off the 220 stone. I'll do a little more on the 500, tidy it up with some sandpaper, and then put a Washita edge on it. If it all works out I shall post some pics, and possibly a video of the results...
The spine is 'only' 7mm or so going out of the handle:
With little distal taper, and height from about 10cm at the heel up to around 12cm at the end/tip, which makes it very forward balanced. The grind was a proper thick bone cleaver grind, which is all I've used it for to date, and it didn't get particularly sharp. But the height means it could potentially be held with an extended pinch grip in the way that you would a slicing cleaver. I'm not going to try to make it a true slicer; I still want it going through bones as a chopper, just a bit more general purpose, like you see in Chinese restaurant kitchens.
So I'm going to thin it differentially, only slightly at the heel, and moreso as it goes down to the tip. We've got; Norton Crystolon Coarse n Fine, Shapton Pro 220, Glass 500, and a Washita:
The SP220 btw is a really superb stone, I picked it up off BST recently because someone was selling some atoma sheets I wanted and had that as well. I'm surprised they don't get more love, I actually ended up using that more than the Crystolon.
The thinning revealed something interesting, to me anyway:
Whether they're thicker for bones, or thinner for slicing; in my experience most Chinese cleavers do not have this kind of complex grind. They basically go straight down to an edge, whereas this has a noticeable proper bevel.
As I say - I'm not trying to make it hyper thin, just knock some of the fatness out as it approaches the tip. The heel I've touched up a bit:
Tapering down to this at the end:
That's off the 220 stone. I'll do a little more on the 500, tidy it up with some sandpaper, and then put a Washita edge on it. If it all works out I shall post some pics, and possibly a video of the results...
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Tried putting a quick edge on God's Own Cleaver, for a run out at dinner.
This Washita is a strong candidate for the best whetstone I've ever used, it's frighteningly good. So while I'm pretty happy with the garlic, ginger and veg prep slicing performance, I'm not necessarily surprised.
This Washita is a strong candidate for the best whetstone I've ever used, it's frighteningly good. So while I'm pretty happy with the garlic, ginger and veg prep slicing performance, I'm not necessarily surprised.
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Xunzi
Well-Known Member
I need to buy more bone so I can justify a cleaver...
Here's my end result then, and it's worked out pretty much exactly as I hoped it would. Hopefully you can see in the vid above that the front half of the knife is happily fine enough for slicing prep. Whereas down at the heel I didn't do too much work, so should still be fine for poultry and pork bones. I can see myself using this knife a fair bit, I was quite impressed with its performance last night.
This is my final front end choil shot:
And here with the CCK Rhino which I also ebonized the handle of yesterday. Slightly dreary weather here today, but they look quite cool in person:
This is my final front end choil shot:
And here with the CCK Rhino which I also ebonized the handle of yesterday. Slightly dreary weather here today, but they look quite cool in person:
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Is the top knife Viet?
Yeah, how do you find that leaf spring chopper in use?
It is yep, good eye! Someone here got in Vietnam about 20 years ago, and gave it to me recently, which was very nice of him
.Err... kinda like a small machete! Takes a pretty reasonable edge, We mostly use it for hacking up pork bones n stuff - it's about the thickness of the Kau Kong before I thinned the front.
So that’s a leaf spring is it...?
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I have several in different weights I bought in Ho Chi Min a few years ago but I have never really used them for much.It is yep, good eye! Someone here got in Vietnam about 20 years ago, and gave it to me recently, which was very nice of him
Err... kinda like a small machete! Takes a pretty reasonable edge, We mostly use it for hacking up pork bones n stuff - it's about the thickness of the Kau Kong before I thinned the front.
So that’s a leaf spring is it...?
I have one of these too. I'll have to see if I can find it. A buddy who was really into knives had to give it up to start breeding and gave me a bunch of random stuff including one of these Asian machete things. I've never done anything with it.It is yep, good eye! Someone here got in Vietnam about 20 years ago, and gave it to me recently, which was very nice of him
Err... kinda like a small machete! Takes a pretty reasonable edge, We mostly use it for hacking up pork bones n stuff - it's about the thickness of the Kau Kong before I thinned the front.
So that’s a leaf spring is it...?
https://www.kitchen-knife.jp/special/cleaver.htm
Something a bit different from Watanabe. A few new white #1 cleavers up on his site. I haven't seen them (or any knives) from him in this steel before.
Something a bit different from Watanabe. A few new white #1 cleavers up on his site. I haven't seen them (or any knives) from him in this steel before.
tostadas
Hobbyist / Craftsman
I really want to try a watanabe cleaver, but those handles eww
spaceconvoy
Senior Member
hand forged perfect rectangles all the exact same thickness 
hand forged perfect rectangles all the exact same thickness
Why yes! One can’t turn a pneumatic hammer and angle grinder on or off without one’s hands
Luftmensch
Senior Member
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Nice post!
By-the-by... the leather crafting community call this dye "vinegaroon"....
I like that word... Kind of makes me think of the wild west. That might not be a good thing, given I am probably thinking about spittoons... Though... I imagine those would also contain some hellava nasty 'natural' brown staining liquids
wabi
Well-Known Member
Of those Watanabe cleavers..handles be dammed, if i had not just taken delivery of a Sugimoto cleaver, I would be on it like a frog on a june bug. Watanabe's work is just wonderful...and if the nakiri is anything like his cleaver...it will be a joy to cut with.
