Classic French chef's knife? Sabatier?

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deskjockey

deskjockey

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Benuser's 23cm Robert Herder 1922 knife sent me down a rabbit hole, especially with my search on Messer Forum (for better or worse). A lot of history there on this particular line. The new K-series seems to be styled after the Japanese options for the European market so, to me have drifted away from what I think of as a traditional German or French Chef's knife.

I want something with a finger guard, preferably not all the way down to the cutting edge or at least not super thick down that low so sharpening later in life isn't too difficult. I also don't really want some super hard "super steel".

I have used the common Henckels and Wusthoff forged knives over the years and generally like them but, the high tip chef knife with its rather large belly isn't the best for how I naturally cut things with a chef knife. These two issues sent me down the Gyuto rabbit hole.

Sabatier and other "French" Chef knives seem to offer a lot of what I am looking for today. The lower tip for board contact cutting, durability and heft for tougher cutting and large jobs, and a forgiving durable edge when I am really bearing down on tough squash or hard sweet potatoes. No, I don't work with frozen things, generally, but boned meats are pretty common. Being able to cut smaller chicken bones or cut through a joint without worrying about the edge would be nice.

This gets me to Sabatier! Which I suspect is a bit like saying General Motors for a car. Are we talking Holden, Opal, Cadilac, etc?

I see a lot of Sabatier ~8" chef knives on various websites in the EU for ~60€. I see both stainless steel and carbon steel along with very few handle scale types.

I generally like Walnut but, would consider Olivewood. Are there other common handle types I should consider for something with a good figure (burl) that is generally on the darker side? How much difference is there in the Stainless Steel and Carbon Steel versions beyond the common rusting and patina concern? Do I need to worry about any of these being a high tip profile, wanting something more like what the Gyuto tip position is? And, regarding finger guards, are there any differences in them I should be aware of?

Finally, should I be looking at any brand names other than Sabatier? I want to stay in the EU, preferably in France but, I would go somewhere else in the EU if they offer a knife like I am looking for. The ~60€ price is really good and ~200€ isn't going to happen anytime soon unless my finances find some good fortune I don't see right now with inflation picking up around me. I am in the USA so, any vendors that have above average shipping to my part of the world would have an advantage.

My dreams of traveling to France, or Europe in general, are on hold right now with local COVID craziness (USA side) and unpredictable exchange rates. I will see "E Dehillerinin" in Paris someday even if it has to be a dying wish "bucket list trip".

TIA,
Sid
 
A lot of the 'present day Sabatiers' are nothing like the old ones. So much higher tip (Germanesque), thicker grinds, same German steel, etc.
And like you said Sabatier (like Laguoiole) isn't a protected term so under that name you can find almost everything these days, running from Chinese bottom-tier trash through boring Germanesque stuff to some half-decent stuff. But I'm struggling to come up with anything that's really all that much like an old Sabatier. All the modern Sabatiers I've had in my hands weren't a very different cutting experience from your average Wüsthof.
Arguably the most interesting 'Sabatier' knife in recent times is the Sabatier 200 series, but while good knives they're also pretty far from the 'old' Sabatiers in a lot of ways. They also don't have finger guards. They're almost to old Sabatiers what the Herder K series is to old German knives.

Just based on looks and profiles some gyutos are close to old Sabatiers than most of the modern French stuff, but you won't find fingerguards on the Japanese knives.
 
My vintage K-sab has the same basic profile as current K-Sabs, and the tip is pretty high. If you can track down a vintage rosewood without much mileage on it, I'd suggest going that route over buying new.
 
btbyrd said:
My vintage K-sab has the same basic profile as current K-Sabs, and the tip is pretty high. If you can track down a vintage rosewood without much mileage on it, I'd suggest going that route over buying new.
Click to expand...

Yes, I did a quick eBay search for older French knives and most of them were totally trashed along with leaving their lives on aggressive sharpening sessions (obvious oversharpening in the middle of the blade leading to an arced edge). There were also some chef's knives that looked like slicers they were so slim.
 
Jovidah said:
A lot of the 'present day Sabatiers' are nothing like the old ones. So much higher tip (Germanesque), thicker grinds, same German steel, etc.
And like you said Sabatier (like Laguoiole) isn't a protected term so under that name you can find almost everything these days, running from Chinese bottom-tier trash through boring Germanesque stuff to some half-decent stuff. But I'm struggling to come up with anything that's really all that much like an old Sabatier. All the modern Sabatiers I've had in my hands weren't a very different cutting experience from your average Wüsthof.
Arguably the most interesting 'Sabatier' knife in recent times is the Sabatier 200 series, but while good knives they're also pretty far from the 'old' Sabatiers in a lot of ways. They also don't have finger guards. They're almost to old Sabatiers what the Herder K series is to old German knives.

Just based on looks and profiles some gyutos are close to old Sabatiers than most of the modern French stuff, but you won't find fingerguards on the Japanese knives.
Click to expand...

Part of the Sabatier curiosity is a trip through history. The old thin guard Chef knives look really sharp.

Your "Germanesque" term is spot on!

The current "French" chef knife trend looks like a near clone of the popular German options assuming you skip the cheap imported stuff when comparing the "Forged" lines.

It sounds like I need to get over the finger guard and just stick to a WorkHorse Gyuto.
 
I got mine here off of B/S/T. Might be worth posting a WTB for. The distal taper is much better on the vintage ones, the bolster is thinner (but they're all going to extend to the edge), and they have a classier feel overall.
 
deskjockey said:
Yes, I did a quick eBay search for older French knives and most of them were totally trashed along with leaving their lives on aggressive sharpening sessions (obvious oversharpening in the middle of the blade leading to an arced edge). There were also some chef's knives that looked like slicers they were so slim.
Click to expand...
There are plenty of good examples on ebay--they've just become craaaaaaazy expensive over the past decade. Same is true for the good old Solingen makers (on par with the old Sabs, just slightly different profile). In fact some of the old solingen stuff is even pricier because there's especially good demand among collectors in Argentina.
If you're patient you can find some good deals--usually nogents or 4-star/elephants--on eBay, but it takes time.

We need to get some of the French and German makers to go on some flea-market missions and help us out!
 
Here’s some. Cheers.👍
028A2352-F8FA-4F27-9C1D-C0BED0613CCE.jpeg
 
McMan said:
Ralph... used car salesman prose and drastically overpriced. He does list some good knives though.
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He spread the story of modern steel being recycled, while old steel was supposed to be 'pure', whatever that might mean. After grazing all flea markets of France and Navarre, of course.
 
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