Couple questions about sharpening

[Neutri]

Hello,
I just started recently getting into knives and sharpening. I bought (i didn't know they were better stones than others) a combo stone 1000/6000 from Kotai (If anyone has any experience with their stone, I'd like to discuss things) and watched a looooot of tutorial videos.

I've used that stone for a few sharpening sessions over the past month. It did get my training knives sharper, but clearly not as sharp as in the videos. Clearly I'm not any good yet but I had a few questions because the stone is not exactly behaving like in the videos. What happens is that I have the feeling that the stone loads up on metal very fast (it becomes grey and it's really hard to wash off) and then the knives kinda just glides on it without removing much metal; there is no slur forming. The sound feedback is also different from the videos, it's doesn't sound like it's "scratching" or just very faintly and just as the touch feedback, that the knife is just gliding on the stone.

Do you have any tips on cleaning the stone?
And is the stone loading up because the stone is bad? Or am I doing something wrong? Is it possible that I put too much water on it while sharpening, or too little? Or maybe the knives I use aren't suited for this stone?
I used a cheap european knife I took from my parents' and I have no idea the steel it's made of and I also used a 5Cr15MoV (equivalent of german X50 CrMov15 apparently) steel knives at first. When sharpening the latter, it did produce a slur at first and the sound feedback is more normal, but at some point it just does what I described earlier. Or maybe, and most likely, I'm just doing something wrong. If you have any idea/hypothesis or need more details, please say it
Thank you very much in advance!

 

[Jovidah]

While stones are not the be all and end all, having mediocre stones can make your life significantly harder - especially when you're still a beginner working on your technique. This is also why most here will stick to 'known stones' for recommendations. There's plenty of Chinese knockoffs floating around that are quite mediocre in their performance (loading up fast, not abrading properly, being too soft, etc).

A good stone shouldn't need constant cleaning. Hard to say whether the knife or the stone is the limitation consideirng how there's also plenty of garbage cheap stainless around that will struggle to take a decent edge no matter what you do, but ever since I switched from cheap Chinese knockoff to Naniwa Pro stones I never had any issues with a stone loading up, not cutting properly, being so soft I'd cut into it, or failing to sharpen.
'Equivalent' stones & steel often aren't...

 

[Neutri]

I see. Thank you for your insight. I saw one review saying that the stone was high quality but that's only one review and it was on the 400/1000 stone. Haven't found any other. Kotai is a french brand doing japanese stuff. And the equivalent knife is a cheap sabatier so it shouldn't be too bad I think?

Your advice would be for be to switch to known stones? I read some threads and there are so many choices, I'm kinda lost aha ^^"

 

[Jovidah]

I see. Thank you for your insight. I saw one review saying that the stone was high quality but that's only one review and it was on the 400/1000 stone. Haven't found any other. Kotai is a french brand doing japanese stuff.

No they're not doing Japanese stuff. They're doing Chinese knock-offs made to look like Japanese stuff. Just because they print a picture of a Japanese mountain on the box doesn't make it Japanese, it just makes it deceptive marketing.

And the equivalent knife is a cheap sabatier so it shouldn't be too bad I think?

Is it though? My experience with Chinese knockoffs has been dissapointing to say the least; wide inconsistencies and variance, and there's plenty of stories around about stuff not being up to spec or for example heat treatments being far off (most famous example being Misen). Just because the marketing says its equivalent doesn't mean it is.
Some of it might be good, some of it might not be, but it's basically a crapshoot. Although honestly in this case it's hard to say given how these stones look like they came out of the same factory as mine and those would struggle regardless of how good the steel was.

Your advice would be for be to switch to known stones? I read some threads and there are so many choices, I'm kinda lost aha ^^"

Yeah but there's plenty of forum favorites. Shapton, Suehiro, Naniwa.... most of the bigger Japanese brands will work fine. Plenty of people have good experiences with some of the affordable Japanese OEM combo stones as well, but you want to really make sure what you're exactly buying.

 

[Neutri]

No they're not doing Japanese stuff. They're doing Chinese knock-offs made to look like Japanese stuff. Just because they print a picture of a Japanese mountain on the box doesn't make it Japanese, it just makes it deceptive marketing.

Oh I didn't know, that's how they advertized it, didn't look at if it was chinese made.

Is it though? My experience with Chinese knockoffs has been dissapointing to say the least; wide inconsistencies and variance, and there's plenty of stories around about stuff not being up to spec or for example heat treatments being far off (most famous example being Misen). Just because the marketing says its equivalent doesn't mean it is.
Some of it might be good, some of it might not be, but it's basically a crapshoot. Although honestly in this case it's hard to say given how these stones look like they came out of the same factory as mine and those would struggle regardless of how good the steel was.

the knife, the internet says this steel is about 54 HRC

Yeah but there's plenty of forum favorites. Shapton, Suehiro, Naniwa.... most of the bigger Japanese brands will work fine. Plenty of people have good experiences with some of the affordable Japanese OEM combo stones as well, but you want to really make sure what you're exactly buying.

OEM?
Is King 1000 Deluxe not good anymore?

 

[Jovidah]

My list wasn't meant to be exhaustive; I haven't tried all the stones either, so I wouldn't be able to tell you which one to get over the other. I've been quite happy with my Naniwa Pro and never looked back, but so have most other people who went for Shapton, Suehiro, Sigma, etc.
I've never used the King stone it but from what I gather if you're on a tight budget it's fine...what it mostly struggles with is that it dishes fast and doesn't cut as well on some of the more exotic / alloyed steels. I think the main reason it doesn't get that much attention is that it doesn't save you all THAT much money compared to the others. Stones are a bit of a long-term investment IMO.

Researching stones isn't easy; there's very little comparative testing on the internet and very few people actually tried enough of the different stones & brands to make fair and sensible comparisons.

 

[Neutri]

My list wasn't meant to be exhaustive; I haven't tried all the stones either, so I wouldn't be able to tell you which one to get over the other. I've been quite happy with my Naniwa Pro and never looked back, but so have most other people who went for Shapton, Suehiro, Sigma, etc.
I've never used the King stone it but from what I gather if you're on a tight budget it's fine...what it mostly struggles with is that it dishes fast and doesn't cut as well on some of the more exotic / alloyed steels. I think the main reason it doesn't get that much attention is that it doesn't save you all THAT much money compared to the others. Stones are a bit of a long-term investment IMO.

Researching stones isn't easy; there's very little comparative testing on the internet and very few people actually tried enough of the different stones & brands to make fair and sensible comparisons.

What grits would you recommend? For most kind of steel, such as european stainless, whte, blue and chromax?

 

[stringer]

What grits would you recommend? For most kind of steel, such as european stainless, whte, blue and chromax?

I would recommend a Shapton Pro 1000 to start. But the best thing to do might be a Google search of the site. Because there is a wealth of info on this topic. Just append "site:kitchenknifeforums.com" to your search terms. I am sure others will pitch in too, but you will probably find that the more you read and the more videos you watch, the more questions you will have for awhile.

"which start stone site:kitchenknifeforums.com"

https://www.google.com/search?q=whi...which start stone site:kitchenknifeforums.com

 

[Jovidah]

Yeah what stringer said; this topic has been covered a lot already, and you should be able to find a wealth of pre-existing discussion on this. The general standard recommendation is to start with a 1k stone and learn how to master that. I'm not going to give a specific recommendation but if you dive into it you'll see a lot of names continue to pop up again and again in the older threads.
Beyond that people differ a lot on finishing grits; some will take European stainless only to 800-1000, others to 2000, 3000. Some still take carbons like white and blue only to 3000 or 4000, others to 8000. I think the one thing all agree on is that there's a limit to what makes sense, there's diminishing returns from going to higher grits, and that you have to master your mid-grit stone first. If you can't get it proper sharp off your 1k stone, a higher grit stone isn't really going to fix that for you.

 

[Neutri]

Alright, thank you! I'd have preferred not to spend anymore money but I guess it can't be helped aha

 

[KingShapton]

Is King 1000 Deluxe not good anymore?

King deluxe 1000 is still a very good stone - if treated properly.

With the well-known brands and their high-quality stones, it is ultimately a matter of nuances, based on personal preferences and the personal feelings of the respective user.

From my point of view, I would advise you to start by focusing on a medium stone (1000) of known brands and practice with it until you get a knife really sharp and get the burr completely removed.

In the immortal words of Ken Schwartz: Master the 1000!

 

[TB_London]

Some pictures would help.

If the stone is glazing then worth trying with more water.
You could also try raising a slurry first with something and seeing if that helps.

54hrc is very soft so is more likely to feel a bit gummy on the stone, but should stil sharpen ok. I wouldn’t go above 1k grit though.

Magic marker on the bevel, check you’re removing it evenly along the length of the knife, keep going til you get a burr, do the other side, then strop it on something

 

[Neutri]

Some pictures would help.

If the stone is glazing then worth trying with more water.
You could also try raising a slurry first with something and seeing if that helps.

54hrc is very soft so is more likely to feel a bit gummy on the stone, but should stil sharpen ok. I wouldn’t go above 1k grit though.

Magic marker on the bevel, check you’re removing it evenly along the length of the knife, keep going til you get a burr, do the other side, then strop it on something

I'll take some when I get back home

Will do

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I'll take some when I get back home

Will do

Along with pictures of the stone, marking the edge bevel and doing one or two swipes and then taking a couple pictures of that can help folks see what you're doing as well.

Also, as mentioned, soft stainless can be challenging to sharpen and it might be contributing to the stone loading. Be sure to keep your stone wet - add water as you go.

Don't stress, it will come, just need to sort a few things out and it'll start clicking for you.