Japanese Knives Diamond stone set again?

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no... i dont do business with naniwa. We did many years ago, but its been a long time. These stones are not made by naniwa.

Its not that makers dont want to be associated with me... we have great relationships with out vendors. Its that they dont like to deal with direct business and/or are maxed out in terms of what they can produce. We also are very protective of some of these relationships, as we have had issues with people trying to copy things we do over the years.
 
Do you or don't you do business with Naniwa Abrasives? Yes or no...simple question.

Am I going to take business from you? Heck no... I can't afford a manufacturing run of my own product.

Care to explain why your prestigious Japanese manufactures don't want to be affiliated with you? That sounds pretty absurd to me.

Simple question for you. Why does it matter who makes it?
 
he seems to think its a snake oil product which isn't really supported by all the glowing reviews about these stones and apparently they rarely if ever go up on b/s/t
 
malexthekid

"He isn't expecting you to pay for anything. If he is offering a product which people can choose to buy if they want. There is enough review and comment and even some video. If that ain't enough for you to decide then don't consider buying."

It has nothing do with reviews or comments. I am asking the retailer what he is selling. John continues to suggest that his product does something that another product does not do, but he does not define his product. He does not manufacture his own product. I am asking him who makes it. Without any information in regards to to who makes it I have no idea the standard of product he is selling me.

From direct experience I know that Japanese Knife Imports provides a courteous and compassionate service to customers. But I really think I deserve to know what the heck I am buying.
 
malexthekid

"He isn't expecting you to pay for anything. If he is offering a product which people can choose to buy if they want. There is enough review and comment and even some video. If that ain't enough for you to decide then don't consider buying."

It has nothing do with reviews or comments. I am asking the retailer what he is selling. John continues to suggest that his product does something that another product does not do, but he does not define his product. He does not manufacture his own product. I am asking him who makes it. Without any information in regards to to who makes it I have no idea the standard of product he is selling me.

From direct experience I know that Japanese Knife Imports provides a courteous and compassionate service to customers. But I really think I deserve to know what the heck I am buying.

sadly, this maker does not like to deal with direct customers, and putting their name and info out there (especially online) encourages this. That being said, i would guess that most, if not all, people here have never heard of them, so there really is no baseline offered by just knowing the company. Because of that, we tried to make some videos that show the stones in action, we used them for an extended period of time and tried to write up the best and most unbiassed review we could (which will obviously still be biassed and bit and we acknowledge that), and then we encouraged the end users who have purchased these stones to share their frank and unbiassed opinions. Having personally used the vast majority of these types of stones on the market, i'm also capable of providing frames of reference when asked. Hope this helps.
 
But I really think I deserve to know what the heck I am buying.
No, you don't. They're his trade secrets. You have absolutely no right to know the OEM of a product he chooses to sell, unless he and the OEM have agreed to make that information public. This applies to everything from diamond stones to computer parts, and anything in between.
 
Cut Fingers, please give it a rest. You've asked your questions, and Jon has (politely and helpfully) responded four times. He's given his explanation.
It's certainly your right to ask about a product, but no vendor is obliged to answer, even if you demand it. If that means you don't buy a certain product, I'm sure the vendor has taken it into account already.
Please respect Jon's decision to run his business the way he wants to.
 
You've asked your questions, and Jon has (politely and helpfully) responded four times.

im always impressed how jon manages to respond as polite, unemotional and buisinesslike as he does.
 
My 2 cents:

When this set of diamond stones was first offered, I didn't get them as I thought the price tag was too high for my taste/need at the time. A little later I received a knife off BST that was sharpened using these stones specifically. I was Very impressed but by that time the initial buy had already passed.

When Jon offered these up again I jumped on them, as I believe several others did as well (most likely due to a similar 2nd hand experience like myself).

These stones remain my primary go to set. I have others I use for fun and to break into some different finishes, but as a whole the diamond set is the workhorse in my routine.
I wished I had this set up years ago, back when my day consisted of a ton of knife work. These would've been nice to have on hand for certain. I had a natural knack of dishing the heck out of all my stones back then, and none gave an edge quite like these gems do, even in their pre-dish state.
I started with Naniwa, then switched to the ZKramer line (Shapton?). After that I jumped on Dave's core set which really seemed to work for my needs. But all of those dished quickly on me. It wasn't until Dave's set that I really started to learn good stone maintenance etiquette. That's when I started to pick up a few Gesshin stones along with some others here and there. As I got better with my sharpening and stone maintenance I started to Want more from them, and more from the finish they gave. That's why I was so impressed by the edge that was sent to me on that fateful BST trade. That edge had everything I was looking for. A great combo of tooth and polish. By that time I had already spent well over $300 and still came up short on what I was looking for. So it was a no brainer for me when Jon offered up a second round of these. And that's EXACTLY why I was the the 5th person to post in this thread. I couldn't have been more pleased at having a second chance to score these.

I only offer this ramble to help those who are on the fence with these stones and their price tag. I honestly could care less if Jon was making 1% or 100% profit off these stones. For the price you get 2 stones, 2 nagura, and one stone holder. You also get Jon's perfect customer service, and I get a sense that these stones well last for a LONG time. We each have our own definition as to what a "good deal" is, and for my money this was it.

I haven't seen this yet, so this is only speculation, but if someone should find these stones not to their liking they could always post them on BST. I suspect they would sell extremely fast. Again, I haven't seen this yet, which should say something regarding customer satisfaction at the very least...
 
From direct experience I know that Japanese Knife Imports provides a courteous and compassionate service to customers. But I really think I deserve to know what the heck I am buying.

You are buying a 1k/6k set of splash and go waterstones, where the abrasive/active ingredient is diamond. They are a few mm thick, mounted on metal (aluminum?) bases, and include a nagura/cleaning stone as well as a stone holder, since they are a little shorter than your average stone. They cut quickly for the listed grit levels and leave a typically diamond stone finish with small scratches. The edge you are left with has a polished feel with enough bite to cut ripe tomatoes skins. These work well with all types of steel from Hitachi to PM.

That is pretty detailed. And Jon (not John, read for comprehension) has already told you all of that. Stop being a jerk.
 
Jon:

I will take a set if/when you decide to offer them again.
 
Cutfingers:

There are a variety of makers of this type of diamond water stone -- a quick search turns up Naniwa and also the I-Wood versions. If you're interested, perhaps you can order those and thereby know who makes the ones you get.

From my perspective, the only real reason to know who makes Jon's is to try to do an end-run around him and find them from a less expensive source, or for someone else to source them and start selling them. I can understand Jon's reluctance to share the maker, for these reasons if no other. We also don't know what the manufacturer has told him about sharing their name. Further, it may be the case that his product is in fact unique, due to his input during development and an exclusive right to the product developed therefrom; if so, sharing the maker's name will have little or any value.

At the end of the day, if you are going to consider this set, you need to rely on Jon's word, reputation, and experience, plus the feedback of others. Jon has invested his time, money, and expertise in locating, testing, and importing these stones (and perhaps also in developing them). Seems to me he is entitled to tell us what he chooses to with regard to their manufacturer. Do I wish they were less expensive? Sure. Would I love to be able to buy them from someone else for a lower price? Yes. Do I hope he is taking what I would consider a fair markup for his efforts? Yes. However, I also think he deserves to be compensated for his efforts.

One reality of the internet age is that it is easy to find multiple sources for products. Too many people go to a bricks and mortar store to test out something (electronics, clothing, books), then go online and order from the cheapest vendor. That is fundamentally unfair and unethical behavior, as they are relying on the investment of the bricks and mortar store to test things out, but not compensating the store for that investment.

Finally, for you to analogize this to a chef and his ingredients is not fair; the food you get at a restaurant is not just a function of what the ingredients are, it is result of the ratio of the ingredients (i.e the recipe) and the preparation of same. If Thomas Keller tells you the exact ingredients for a dish, does that mean you can replicate it exactly? I don't think so. So, his sharing the source of his ingredients does not substantially weaken the value he delivers nor the price he can charge.

However, if Thomas Keller has spent his time and energy identifying what he believes is the finest olive oil, and he imports it and puts his name on it, should you expect him to tell you from whom he sources it?

Here is the ingredient list for Jon's stones: aluminum base, diamond, ceramic, coloring agent. Now, you or anyone else can replicate the stones.
 
Hey Theory...why don't you tell your customers in your restaurant that you can't tell them where the food came from because you might be priced out of the game? Is it a game to you to offer quality? I don't care how skilled you are as a chef, that is a pathetic answer.

Let me use your own example here. If I were to tell you the recipe for a dish that everyone else enjoyed, would that make you want to purchase it?

Or what if another chef was listening and decided to copy me and sell a lesser version of it for less right next door?

Now two things happen:
1. I'm being undercut by my competitor causing a decline in my sales.
2. Brand confusion sets in and people can associate my quality product with the lesser quality product weakening my brand.

That exact thing has indeed happened within this community before. Why do you think this very forum even exists? Why don't you ask Maxim how he feels about having his stones copied and his brand being used for others gain?
 
Do you or don't you do business with Naniwa Abrasives? Yes or no...simple question.

Am I going to take business from you? Heck no... I can't afford a manufacturing run of my own product.

Care to explain why your prestigious Japanese manufactures don't want to be affiliated with you? That sounds pretty absurd to me.

Two primary ways to protect intellectual property in the US, I assume most other countries are similar. Those two ways are patents and trade secrets. Generally accepted criteria is that if the product or process is easily reverse engineered then a patent is appropriate but you have to disclose everything about it and since there is no universal patents, you have to apply for and get a patent in every country that you may want to do business in or which may copy your product/process....don't know if you've ever done a patent application but it ain't cheap, or quick, or easy. If your product/process is not easily copied then you protect it as a trade secret. Having a trade secret doesn't protect against someone figuring out what you did and then competing but that is why it has to be difficult/impossible to reverse engineer.

Mr. Broida is under no obligation whatsoever to disclose his sources or processes any more than Coca-Cola or Kentucky Fried Chicken are required to disclose their secret sauce. If you don't believe the people on the board on the performance of the stones you are under no obligation to buy them. I'm pretty sure that Naniwa or the other stone manufacturers are not going to disclose exactly how they make their stones or where they source their materials so what is the problem? If Mr. Broida chooses to protect his trade secret appropriately then respect his decision and stop being prickly. Geez.
 
I just struggle with how who makes them can assist in any real way. Most of the major stone manufacturers we know of produce several lines with at least one that people help.

So how exactly does Jon saying "is made by Naniwa or Shapton or Costco or a a group of midget fairies in the himilayas" provide you with information about the stone.

No other reason than wanting to either source it cheaper or move into Jon's market.

If the 20 or 30 glowing reviews these stones have from forum members isn't enough to help you mane up your mind then nothing Jon can say or do will. So you are fishing for information for other reasons
 
it seems there is a decent bit of interest for these again... i will start a new thread shortly
 
Whew. Things be gettin hot up in here. Like Gordon Ramsey says, "SHUT IT DOWN!"
 
Sorry for being one of the ones to aid the derailing.

In my final comment get on this set of you are even half considering. They are great. I'm planning on take all my knives to them in the next couple weeks to give them some TLC
 
There's no such thing as bad publicity right?
 
i'm probably gonna get some flack for saying this, but i actually think everyone was a bit too hard on the guy. I appreciate that people came to my defense, but i also think that sometimes we have a tendency to go too far with it on this forum. I kind of like the "just be nice" approach, and then when people act rude, they stick out like sore thumbs and it becomes uncomfortable for them to be that rude in the face of people being polite to them.
 
Guys, Jon is not taking any steps to hide anything from you. He's taking steps to hide things from me. Well, me and other vendors. Knowing who makes these is of no consequence or benefit to any end user. If he had branded these as Gesshin, or other, I don't think this would even be a conversation. You probably don't know who makes his Gesshin stones, and it doesn't matter. As one of the few people targeted in withholding this information, I both understand this completely and give my full blessing for him to continue withholding this.
 
:tease: so will someone tell me what steel Heiji uses :running:
 
Guys, Jon is not taking any steps to hide anything from you. He's taking steps to hide things from me. Well, me and other vendors. Knowing who makes these is of no consequence or benefit to any end user. If he had branded these as Gesshin, or other, I don't think this would even be a conversation. You probably don't know who makes his Gesshin stones, and it doesn't matter. As one of the few people targeted in withholding this information, I both understand this completely and give my full blessing for him to continue withholding this.

honestly, just as much as i am protecting myself from competitors, i cant tell you the number of companies we deal with who ask us to not share anything about them because they dont want to deal with customers coming to them directly, non-japanese speaking customers, or just e-mails and phonecalls in general. Plus, a lot of non-japanese people have a tendency to look up company information and visit (either uninvited or after asking, but not realizing japanese people dont feel comfortable saying no, even when they really mean no).
 
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