Edge Retention- best carbon makers

Discussion in 'The Kitchen Knife' started by Gregmega, Mar 26, 2019.

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  1. Mar 26, 2019 #1

    Gregmega

    Gregmega

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    Hello all-

    Looking to tap the collective mind of the group on yet another edge retention page. After a quick search, most the threads are about more alloyed steels, or splintered into other threads. I’m looking for anyone’s input with blues/whites/other high carbons- and more specifically by maker. And if at all possible, makers that aren’t TF.

    Thanks!
     
  2. Mar 26, 2019 #2

    GorillaGrunt

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    Watanabe in Blue 2, Munetoshi in White 2, Mazaki in White is good, I’ve only really used a few in AS but someone is probably particularly good with it...
     
  3. Mar 26, 2019 #3

    Gregmega

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    Awesome. My first Wat shows up in a week or 2.
     
  4. Mar 26, 2019 #4

    hennyville

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    1.2442 heat treated by Achim Wirtz, with proper sharpening progression stays nicely sharp in pro kitchen for more than 10 days.
     
  5. Mar 26, 2019 #5
    hennyville made a very important point here - the way the knife was sharpened has a significant impact on the edge retention under given conditions.

    Plus of course what is sharp enough for one may be already too dull for another.
     
  6. Mar 26, 2019 #6

    tgfencer

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    In terms of that family of European steels like the 1.2442 Hennyville mentioned (which I love), as I understand it and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but edge retention and Japanese equivalents goes roughly as follows:

    1.2519=Aogami 2 <<< 1.2442=Aogami 1 <<< Aogami Super <<<<<< 1.2562

    Personally, I have used and like them all. Catcheside, Dalman, and Robert Trimarchi all use some of these European steels, as do other Western makers.

    As for Japanese makers, Wat and Toyama have already been mentioned. Also, just my two cents, but for a midweight blade, Hinoura treated aogomi super is a excellent and about half the price of TF.
     
    LostHighway likes this.
  7. Mar 26, 2019 #7

    hennyville

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    You are right, but i am still pretty sure that key point is HT, makers you mentioned are very skillfull in their HT i think, never tried any of them.

    and +1 for the Toyama, probably best ao2 i ever tried.
     
  8. Mar 26, 2019 #8

    panda

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    Hinoura white 2, Marko 52100
     
  9. Mar 26, 2019 #9

    tgfencer

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    Oh yeah, heat treat is definitely key along with user sharpening. I just assumed that was a given in this conversation, but probably should have made it clear.
     
  10. Mar 26, 2019 #10

    Marcelo Amaral

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    Mario Ingoglia's W2 (not white #2) honyaki has great edge retention.
     
  11. Mar 26, 2019 #11

    Barmoley

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    As others mentioned already, sharpening angle makes a huge difference. Larrin showed in his testing that angle has a very significant effect on how long an edge cuts. This seems to imply that if you could find a steel/heattreat that will support an acute angle without crumbling, you'll be able to make simple carbons have very high edge retention.

    The best I've tried so far for "simple" carbons has been 1.2442 by Catcheside and Tilman, but 1.2442 is closer to blue 1 as far as alloying elements go. Also, I agree with Matus that what is sharp enough for some is not for others. For me, I don't care if the knife doesn't shave, but if tomatoes don't fall apart and run in pieces screaming in different directions when I just touch them with an edge then the knife is not sharp enough. So thin, hard edges finished around 4000 grid with some carbides seem to work best for me.
     
  12. Mar 26, 2019 #12

    Gregmega

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    Boom. Heat treat is everything (or at least the foundation).

    I have one of the early Maz that somehow holds up for a solid week in a pro environment, somehow the edge deterioration makes for the steel to still feel toothy (and downright sharp with a single strop) for longer than a lot of blues I’ve tried. I’m terribly demanding on these things.

    Also am on Evans list very soon for sc125 and a Raquin as well. We shall see. Also my first Wat custom.

    -Barmoley- spoken like a pro- it’s pretty rare for me (and I think most pros) to go above 3-4K in a pro setting. At some point the polishing and higher grits actually work against you in so many ways. Now I use an aizu for final edge. Which when used on a Toyama is akin to when Ash attached a chainsaw to his arm. In a good way.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2019
  13. Mar 26, 2019 #13

    HRC_64

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    during tomato season what happens?
     
  14. Mar 26, 2019 #14

    DitmasPork

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    My carbons that rock in the edge retention category are Watanabe, JNS Mazaki (old profile, new grind) and Kato WH.
     
  15. Mar 26, 2019 #15

    hennyville

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    good point )

    its not falling through, but still can cut tomatoes "easily" with almost zero pressure. but you know, i am in Czech rep, not in Italy. mass produced tomatoes here sucks )
     
  16. Mar 26, 2019 #16

    labor of love

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    Yeah, that Mazaki older had great retention.
    Nobody ever mentions great edge retention with regards to Fujiyamas, is this a case of a super thin edge getting beaten up on the board?
     
  17. Mar 26, 2019 #17

    Gregmega

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    Finally landed my first wide bevel from 2015/6 in b2. Yet to put it on the boards. I’ll def put it to the test and give feedback.
     
  18. Mar 26, 2019 #18

    HRC_64

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    super thin edges are almost never durable
    (not sure if its geometry or flex or what?)
     
  19. Mar 26, 2019 #19

    Gregmega

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    The Maz that I have with great retention are pretty thin bte, so I’m not sure that is necessarily entirely consistent from knife to knife. I do believe heat would be the primary factor.
     
  20. Mar 26, 2019 #20

    dwalker

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    Togashi white 2 honyaki is special, as well as Ikeda white 3.
     
  21. Mar 26, 2019 #21

    Tonsku38

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    My Shibata Kotetsu AS has better retention and then my Kaeru gyuto. Even with plastic board.
     
  22. Mar 26, 2019 #22

    labor of love

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    Oh yeah, my HSPS Pro takamura has the thinnest edge, and unreal edge retention to go with it-but not very durable at all. But also not carbon so I guess the point is moot.
     
  23. Mar 26, 2019 #23

    labor of love

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    Overall I think takeda and watanabe have the best retention of all carbons I’ve used...Marko 52100 takes the cake for edge stability IMO. But I haven’t touched nearly as many $500+ knives as you guys have.
     
  24. Mar 26, 2019 #24
    1.2562 is the most wear resistant low alloy steel. With proper heat treatment.

    Hoss
     
  25. Mar 26, 2019 #25

    labor of love

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    God has spoken.
     
  26. Mar 26, 2019 #26

    labor of love

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  27. Mar 26, 2019 #27

    Nemo

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    Is this because of the volume and hardness of carbides, the carbon composition (which presumably allows a higher volume of spheroidised iron carbide) or something else?
     
  28. Mar 26, 2019 #28
    Some things that affect wear resistance are carbide volume, carbide type, carbide size, carbide distribution, hardness of the matrix, amount of alloy in the matrix, grain size, toughness, how course the sharpening, edge angle, etc.

    Chemical composition is the first thing to look at, next is the manufacturing process, cast wrought, spray form or PM. Next would be proper heat treatment.

    Knife makers that become familiar with certain alloys and their HT usually have more success.

    Hoss
     
  29. Mar 26, 2019 #29

    Migraine

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    I heard it's because it's dad was emotionally distant as a child.
     
  30. Mar 26, 2019 #30

    M1k3

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    And cutting board material. And how often the edge hits hard food (bone, shells, etc.)

    That said, what I believe to be A2 steel, Takamura.
     

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