Edge Retention- best carbon makers

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Gregmega

Gregmega

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Hello all-

Looking to tap the collective mind of the group on yet another edge retention page. After a quick search, most the threads are about more alloyed steels, or splintered into other threads. I’m looking for anyone’s input with blues/whites/other high carbons- and more specifically by maker. And if at all possible, makers that aren’t TF[emoji23].

Thanks!
 
1.2442 heat treated by Achim Wirtz, with proper sharpening progression stays nicely sharp in pro kitchen for more than 10 days.
 
hennyville made a very important point here - the way the knife was sharpened has a significant impact on the edge retention under given conditions.

Plus of course what is sharp enough for one may be already too dull for another.
 
Matus said:
hennyville made a very important point here - the way the knife was sharpened has a significant impact on the edge retention under given conditions.

Plus of course what is sharp enough for one may be already too dull for another.
Click to expand...

In terms of that family of European steels like the 1.2442 Hennyville mentioned (which I love), as I understand it and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but edge retention and Japanese equivalents goes roughly as follows:

1.2519=Aogami 2 <<< 1.2442=Aogami 1 <<< Aogami Super <<<<<< 1.2562

Personally, I have used and like them all. Catcheside, Dalman, and Robert Trimarchi all use some of these European steels, as do other Western makers.

As for Japanese makers, Wat and Toyama have already been mentioned. Also, just my two cents, but for a midweight blade, Hinoura treated aogomi super is a excellent and about half the price of TF.
 
tgfencer said:
1.2519=Aogami 2 <<< 1.2442=Aogami 1 <<< Aogami Super <<<<<< 1.2562
Click to expand...

You are right, but i am still pretty sure that key point is HT, makers you mentioned are very skillfull in their HT i think, never tried any of them.

and +1 for the Toyama, probably best ao2 i ever tried.
 
hennyville said:
You are right, but i am still pretty sure that key point is HT, makers you mentioned are very skillfull in their HT i think, never tried any of them.

and +1 for the Toyama, probably best ao2 i ever tried.
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, heat treat is definitely key along with user sharpening. I just assumed that was a given in this conversation, but probably should have made it clear.
 
As others mentioned already, sharpening angle makes a huge difference. Larrin showed in his testing that angle has a very significant effect on how long an edge cuts. This seems to imply that if you could find a steel/heattreat that will support an acute angle without crumbling, you'll be able to make simple carbons have very high edge retention.

The best I've tried so far for "simple" carbons has been 1.2442 by Catcheside and Tilman, but 1.2442 is closer to blue 1 as far as alloying elements go. Also, I agree with Matus that what is sharp enough for some is not for others. For me, I don't care if the knife doesn't shave, but if tomatoes don't fall apart and run in pieces screaming in different directions when I just touch them with an edge then the knife is not sharp enough. So thin, hard edges finished around 4000 grid with some carbides seem to work best for me.
 
hennyville said:
You are right, but i am still pretty sure that key point is HT, makers you mentioned are very skillfull in their HT i think, never tried any of them.

and +1 for the Toyama, probably best ao2 i ever tried.
Click to expand...

Boom. Heat treat is everything (or at least the foundation).

I have one of the early Maz that somehow holds up for a solid week in a pro environment, somehow the edge deterioration makes for the steel to still feel toothy (and downright sharp with a single strop) for longer than a lot of blues I’ve tried. I’m terribly demanding on these things.

Also am on Evans list very soon for sc125 and a Raquin as well. We shall see. Also my first Wat custom.

-Barmoley- spoken like a pro- it’s pretty rare for me (and I think most pros) to go above 3-4K in a pro setting. At some point the polishing and higher grits actually work against you in so many ways. Now I use an aizu for final edge. Which when used on a Toyama is akin to when Ash attached a chainsaw to his arm. In a good way.
 
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My carbons that rock in the edge retention category are Watanabe, JNS Mazaki (old profile, new grind) and Kato WH.
 
HRC_64 said:
during tomato season what happens?
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good point )

its not falling through, but still can cut tomatoes "easily" with almost zero pressure. but you know, i am in Czech rep, not in Italy. mass produced tomatoes here sucks )
 
Yeah, that Mazaki older had great retention.
Nobody ever mentions great edge retention with regards to Fujiyamas, is this a case of a super thin edge getting beaten up on the board?
 
labor of love said:
Yeah, that Mazaki older had great retention.
Nobody ever mentions great edge retention with regards to Fujiyamas, is this a case of a super thin edge getting beaten up on the board?
Click to expand...

Finally landed my first wide bevel from 2015/6 in b2. Yet to put it on the boards. I’ll def put it to the test and give feedback.
 
super thin edges are almost never durable
(not sure if its geometry or flex or what?)
 
The Maz that I have with great retention are pretty thin bte, so I’m not sure that is necessarily entirely consistent from knife to knife. I do believe heat would be the primary factor.
 
Togashi white 2 honyaki is special, as well as Ikeda white 3.
 
HRC_64 said:
super thin edges are almost never durable
(not sure if its geometry or flex or what?)
Click to expand...

My Shibata Kotetsu AS has better retention and then my Kaeru gyuto. Even with plastic board.
 
Overall I think takeda and watanabe have the best retention of all carbons I’ve used...Marko 52100 takes the cake for edge stability IMO. But I haven’t touched nearly as many $500+ knives as you guys have.
 
1.2562 is the most wear resistant low alloy steel. With proper heat treatment.

Hoss
 
DevinT said:
1.2562 is the most wear resistant low alloy steel. With proper heat treatment.

Hoss
Click to expand...
Is this because of the volume and hardness of carbides, the carbon composition (which presumably allows a higher volume of spheroidised iron carbide) or something else?
 
Some things that affect wear resistance are carbide volume, carbide type, carbide size, carbide distribution, hardness of the matrix, amount of alloy in the matrix, grain size, toughness, how course the sharpening, edge angle, etc.

Chemical composition is the first thing to look at, next is the manufacturing process, cast wrought, spray form or PM. Next would be proper heat treatment.

Knife makers that become familiar with certain alloys and their HT usually have more success.

Hoss
 
Nemo said:
Is this because of the volume and hardness of carbides, the carbon composition (which presumably allows a higher volume of spheroidised iron carbide) or something else?
Click to expand...

I heard it's because it's dad was emotionally distant as a child.
 
DevinT said:
Some things that affect wear resistance are carbide volume, carbide type, carbide size, carbide distribution, hardness of the matrix, amount of alloy in the matrix, grain size, toughness, how course the sharpening, edge angle, etc.

Chemical composition is the first thing to look at, next is the manufacturing process, cast wrought, spray form or PM. Next would be proper heat treatment.

Knife makers that become familiar with certain alloys and their HT usually have more success.

Hoss
Click to expand...

And cutting board material. And how often the edge hits hard food (bone, shells, etc.)

That said, what I believe to be A2 steel, Takamura.
 
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