Finding the burr on a compound microscope with a lit mechanical stage

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Mikeltee

Mikeltee

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I am having trouble detecting a burr. My fingers aren't that sensitive. Its probably from packing bowls all these years and smashing hot cherries down. Regardless, I have a $40 usb microscope and a $140 Celestron USB 5mp microscope and they are both highly inadequate at sighting a burr. I refuse to pay $700-$1200 for the proper dinolite. I also have a nice Swift 350T Compound Britefield Microscope to study critters in my reef rank. I'd like to utilize this. I need to light the stage. I plan to use a 4x objective and 25x eyepiece so I have maximum depth of field. I'll also try 10x-10x.

Has anyone been successful lighting the mechanical stage on a compound microscope? I'd buy a cheap stereo microscope if the price was right.
 
Maybe you aren’t raising a burr? Try feeling it with some other sensitive part of your body. Or try raising a huge freakin burr on a low grit stone so that you can make sure you know what it feels like. Fancy microscopes are not the answer... I feel like you can often see a burr with a 20x loupe, or sometimes with the naked eye if you look closely and it’s a huge one. You’re probably just not raising one.
 
I can raise huge burrs on my Wicked Edge system. Using a Shapton Glass 1000, cranking on it for several minutes, I can't feel one. I do however, feel a difference towards the other side. The side I sharpen feels rounded. I assume that's a burr formed on the other side but I want to visually confirm.

I also want to take examine different scratch patterns that natural finishing stones leave to see how they differ. I also want to be able to confirm the toothy edge that's needed for a good utility knife.

I realize jnats and Japanese steel perform magic together. I want to see if I can scientifically understand why.
 
Mikeltee said:
I can raise huge burrs on my Wicked Edge system. Using a Shapton Glass 1000, cranking on it for several minutes, I can't feel one.
Click to expand...

If you can feel burrs off your wicked edge, I think it’s more likely that you’re just not hitting the edge with the shapton, even if one side feels more rounded. You’re using back and forth scrubbing strokes, not just edge leading strokes, right? Raise your sharpening angle and try again.

I totally understand wanting to actually see things, although I think in the end it’ll be of limited practical use to you. But good luck with the setup. Sounds like a lot of fun. I’d love to see some images of my edges too, just out of curiosity.
 
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Slim278 said:
If you must go this direction to sharpen, a jeweler's loop would be my choice.
Click to expand...
What size jewelers loupe would you suggest? 40? Would you mind linking to one possible on Amazon? Ty
 
Mikeltee said:
What size jewelers loupe would you suggest? 40? Would you mind linking to one possible on Amazon? Ty
Click to expand...

ditch the microscope and loupe man. not needed.
either you feel for the burr. or you just simply look for it.

you can see that the final part of the edge is reflecting light in another direction then you have a burr.

at left side here is a burr. you can tell by how the light is reflected. completely visible with your eyes. this from a 12k stone so its very small. but its still there.

s30v12k-jpg.107619
 
I found a loupe useful initially, while I was learning. But I stopped bothering with it fairly quickly.

I have both 10x and 30x. I’d recommend the 10x if you want to buy one. The 30 x has very shallow depth of field and is less useful.

I bought this one, which works fine. Get some spare batteries; they don’t last long.

I sometimes use a piece of fine tissue paper to feel for a burr. It will catch on a burr when you drag it across the edge.
 
Try letting the light graze down the bevel face and exit perpendicularly at the apex. The angle should be so low that the bevel appears almost dark in the microscope. Any burr or contamination at the apex should light up very brightly. You can calibrate this method by scraping off some skin cells; merely touching the apex will leave enough debris to light up like a christmas tree. A clean apex will appear completely invisible with this method.
 
Like @ian mentioned above, if you are feeling a burr with the wicked edge and you aren't with a SG1000:

1. Confirm that you are using EDGE-TRAILING strokes and not EDGE-LEADING strokes. If you use edge-leading strokes, you will not build a burr, and it will be close to impossible to get a truly sharp, clean edge. If you want details as to why, I highly advise perusing scienceofsharp.com.

2. If you are using edge-trailing strokes, you probably just aren't hitting the actual apex on the stones. You are instead hitting it at too low of an angle, so you are smoothing the angle above the apex without ever building the edge. Try using a sharpie on the edge to see exactly where you are hitting. It will be visibly clear if you are hitting the actual apex, even with just a simple magnifying glass or the naked eye.

3. The as-mentioned test with a piece of kleenex is a great way to detect a very fine burr. I don't bother with most steels, but with very high hardness stainless steels, I'll do it after initial deburring to ensure that it's really gone.

4. Also always remember to slow down, especially if you are pretty new to freehand sharpening. Watching videos of ridiculously experienced people raise and knock off a burr in 45 seconds is cool, but you'll do better with your precious tools if you just slow down, verify your angle, verify your pressure, etc. There is no advantage to rushing this, and LOTS of potential problems.
 
First, make sure you have reached the very edge and didn't stay behind it, or have overlooked a microbevel. Use a marker and a loupe (8x-12x) to see where steel got abraded. Often the very edge isn't reached at all, and debris are accumulated on top of the old edge. It does feel slightly sharper than before since the area behind the edge got thinned a bit, but the bevels haven't met.
Once the very edge reached, you may feel with your nail along the bevels. The aim is to have both equally smooth. If a side feels rough it's because of a burr leaning to that side.
A last test could be cutting the thinnest cigarette paper. It should cut smoothly. A ragged cut is a sign of a remaining burr. And listen.
I would start with very simple carbon steel, C60, C75 or 1095. They're unlikely to cause any complications which occur with more charged steel types, like wire edges, burrs popping up afterwards, tearing out carbides etc.
 
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big_adventure said:
Like @ian mentioned above, if you are feeling a burr with the wicked edge and you aren't with a SG1000:

1. Confirm that you are using EDGE-TRAILING strokes and not EDGE-LEADING strokes. If you use edge-leading strokes, you will not build a burr, and it will be close to impossible to get a truly sharp, clean edge. If you want details as to why, I highly advise perusing scienceofsharp.com.
Click to expand...

Can you clarify what you’re saying here, or point me to the article on scienceofsharp that you have in mind?

Just about every knife sharpening video has strokes going back and further (both trailing and leading). Here’s a pretty typical example. There must be some nuance in what you’re saying that I’m missing?

 
Delat said:
Can you clarify what you’re saying here, or point me to the article on scienceofsharp that you have in mind?

Just about every knife sharpening video has strokes going back and further (both trailing and leading). Here’s a pretty typical example. There must be some nuance in what you’re saying that I’m missing?

Click to expand...


You're using both trailing and leading I'm sure. I mentioned something like that just in case you were for some strange reason picking up your knife after every stroke and starting over with another edge leading stroke (which is what I do at the end of sharpening to remove the burr) instead of scrubbing back and forth.
 
Delat said:
Can you clarify what you’re saying here, or point me to the article on scienceofsharp that you have in mind?

Just about every knife sharpening video has strokes going back and further (both trailing and leading). Here’s a pretty typical example. There must be some nuance in what you’re saying that I’m missing?
Click to expand...

One nuance is to have pressure on the edge trailing move and pressure off the edge leading while scrubbing.
For removing burr I clean the stone of slurry, then do a gentle edge leading stroke on one side of the blade while raising the angle a bit to make sure I dont hit behind the edge, no pressure just the weight of the knife. Then I flip the knife and finish with a sideways stroke, again no pressure.
 
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mikeltee.

would it be possible for you to get a SEM? i guess that would be the best option by far to find burrs.
you can probably also use it to remove the burrs you find with a focused ion beam. just a thought.
whats your budget?
 
inferno said:
mikeltee.

would it be possible for you to get a SEM? i guess that would be the best option by far to find burrs.
you can probably also use it to remove the burrs you find with a focused ion beam. just a thought.
whats your budget?
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Lmao. About 750k!
 
Thanks for all the replies guys. I am using edge leading and trailing strokes. I use 8# pressure edge trailing and I leave the knife on the stone with zero pressure going edge leading just like they do in the videos. When I do edge trailing only and lift my knife to start again I have a harder time hitting my angle vs just leaving the angle set going both ways. It is possible that I am trying to do a 10 degree bevel on a 15 degree edge and not hitting the edge. I did do the sharpie trick and I can clean it but it could just be the Slurry washing it away. Practice is what I need. No fancy electronics! I will figure out how to light the top of my scope somehow though...
 
Perhaps with a flashlight? If you look close enough, you should be able to see it.



Look at ~3 minutes in the video. Here he demonstrates what to look for.
 
Delat said:
Can you clarify what you’re saying here, or point me to the article on scienceofsharp that you have in mind?

Just about every knife sharpening video has strokes going back and further (both trailing and leading). Here’s a pretty typical example. There must be some nuance in what you’re saying that I’m missing?

Click to expand...


Sounds like you are doing the right thing: pressure on the edge trailing strokes and no pressure on the edge leading strokes while you are "scrubbing" in both directions. This will build a burr if you are hitting the apex with the edge trailing strokes - it's what most of us do.

In which case, you are likely not building a burr because you are not hitting the apex. So it's off to sharpie-land for you. :D
 
I personally believe there is an over emphasis on pressure. I essentially apply the same pressure in both directions and have no trouble raising a burr. I'm not saying it isn't worth being mindful of and is no doubt good advice as we advance, I've just never thought it to be as critical as many others do.

Hell, I spent many, many years not applying any direct pressure to the blade edge on the stone. Nearly all the pressure was applied from the spine and typically on the edge leading stroke and and light on what we would have called the return (trailing) stroke.
 
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HumbleHomeCook said:
I personally believe there is an over emphasis on pressure. I essentially apply the same pressure in both directions and have no trouble raising a burr. I'm not saying it isn't worth being mindful of and is no doubt good advice as we advance, I've just never thought it to be as critical as many others do.
Click to expand...

Mostly agree. You have to make sure not to apply too much pressure when deburring, but there’s not much different in the amount of pressure I apply on trailing vs leading strokes.
 
Delat said:
Can you clarify what you’re saying here, or point me to the article on scienceofsharp that you have in mind?

Just about every knife sharpening video has strokes going back and further (both trailing and leading). Here’s a pretty typical example. There must be some nuance in what you’re saying that I’m missing?

Click to expand...


I learned from Japanese Sushi Chef many years ago he taught finger pad pressure only on trailing stroke. Release pressure on edge leading stroke. The strokes look like same because hand stays on the blade. I mastered this in no time. Of coarse it's not 0-100% but you get the picture. Before this I sharpened equal pressure back & forth. Prefer trailing stroke better. When teaching culinary students sharpening, changing finger pad pressure was too much for some. Started teaching lift knife off the stone slightly on return stroke. Much easier to teach their knives get sharp thinning,
micro bevels, & burr removal.
.
 
The USB microscopes work great, but also a 10x magnifying glass with LED light can work well also. With the burr, you can even see it with an bright inspection lamp also, like something you would use on a bandsaw to light the cut line.

The principle is to see the reflection from the burr. It's how you could see a spider's web across the backyard with your naked eye - the sunlight will reflect off the web. The magnification will definitely help, but it's more about the lighting and the angle.
 
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