German Style Chef's Knife Recommendations
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You may want to list considerations such as budget, length and steel type.
If you can find one on sale, I quite like the Zwilling Kramer Carbon 10". The 8" and 6" are too curvy (due to the high heel height) in my opinion. The 52100 steel is pretty darn nice.
If you can find one on sale, I quite like the Zwilling Kramer Carbon 10". The 8" and 6" are too curvy (due to the high heel height) in my opinion. The 52100 steel is pretty darn nice.
Jovidah
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Something to consider is that you don't actually need a massive Wüsthof style belly to rockchop; most of the J-knives with a French-style profile (and steel on the softer side) rockchop just fine, if not better.
that's true but they're too brittle for my taste and I haven't invested in softer cutting boards that would give me peace of mind. I have both J knives and a Sabatier but I want a German belly i can lean on. just my personal preference.
Jovidah
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As long as you don't try to chop through bones there's plenty of Japanese stuff that'll rockchop all day without being brittle in any way. Just depends on what you buy.
I have a Wüsthof classic Ikon 23 cm (pretty much the most 'standard' German rockchopper), but even for rockchopping I prefer my Japanese stuff (or my Arcos knife that cost half as much).
I have a Wüsthof classic Ikon 23 cm (pretty much the most 'standard' German rockchopper), but even for rockchopping I prefer my Japanese stuff (or my Arcos knife that cost half as much).
I would say anything around a 61HRC you can hammer on pretty well on with a edge grain board (unless you form is really bad and you're digging the knife into board and twisting at the same time).
Sure, anything that is at nail flexing may take more care (like a Yoshikane), but you step back from that a bit and you're pretty well off. I'll rock chop anything on my rack (Kono MM, Hitohira Tanaka x Yohei, Shihan, Kippington, MCX Spare ApexUltra) and not even think twice about it.
@stringer is the master of showing what a J-Knife can handle.
Sure, anything that is at nail flexing may take more care (like a Yoshikane), but you step back from that a bit and you're pretty well off. I'll rock chop anything on my rack (Kono MM, Hitohira Tanaka x Yohei, Shihan, Kippington, MCX Spare ApexUltra) and not even think twice about it.
@stringer is the master of showing what a J-Knife can handle.
You will probably find the best deals on eBay for used Henckel's knives. I like Henckels and Wusthof knives made in Germany as I like the balance but I am old school. The 10-inch chef's knife is my favorite. I keep 30 active knives in my 2 kitchen knife blocks. They are all Germn made Henckels 4 star and 5 star or Wusthof Classic knives.
The only thing you gotta watch out for when rock chopping is low thin tips. Any kind of upsweep works great. But the more a knife looks like a giant santoku the better. Double bevel knives are meant for board contact and rock chopping is not inherently worse for edges than push chopping. The thing that Japanese style grinds don't do well is torque. Controlling torque is the key to avoiding chips. As long as the impact is orthogonal to the edge you are mostly fine and there is no better way to make sure that your edge stays orthogonal to the cutting board than rock chopping. Think of it as low impact. Low thin tips tend to stab into the board and completely flat profiles can feel dead when you get to the heel. So avoid profiles like those. Other than that, the world is your oyster.
I abuse the crap out of all kinds of knives here so you don't have to do the destruction tests yourself.
https://youtube.com/@garfilo1
I abuse the crap out of all kinds of knives here so you don't have to do the destruction tests yourself.
https://youtube.com/@garfilo1
Warther and North Arms are both using nice, modern steels. Give them a look.
Also, Bernal Cutlery has a nice assortment of western style stuff be they Japanese or western. The SK steel offerings are pretty tough and durable.
Beyond that, my favorite of the "big two" German brands is the Wusthof Gourmet. A touch softer than the higher end but it's hard to notice in practical use and the lighter handle helps keep more forward balance. Price has gone up so not the same value they used to be but still good.
And I rock chop like crazy with very thin Japanese knives. Even double rock!
Also, Bernal Cutlery has a nice assortment of western style stuff be they Japanese or western. The SK steel offerings are pretty tough and durable.
Beyond that, my favorite of the "big two" German brands is the Wusthof Gourmet. A touch softer than the higher end but it's hard to notice in practical use and the lighter handle helps keep more forward balance. Price has gone up so not the same value they used to be but still good.
And I rock chop like crazy with very thin Japanese knives. Even double rock!
I'm a new guy here but I really like my Zwilling Pro. The slanted half bolster makes for a comfortable pinch grip and doesn't get in the way of sharpenning and the profile has been updated to have a more curved belly. They have 6, 8 & 10" versions.
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
By the way, I forgot to mention it, but of the more 'traditional German stuff', the Robert Herder 1922 really is the best you can get. Certainly not cheap though. The K chef is another good option (better steel, lesser handle, flatter profile), but it will probably cost the same if not more. So both of them are in a price range where you can also buy very nice J-knives.
Though I agree the slanted half-bolster handles are nice... My Arcos knife ripped off that design and it's quite comfy.
FTFY.
Though I agree the slanted half-bolster handles are nice... My Arcos knife ripped off that design and it's quite comfy.
What Arcos do you have?
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
https://www.arcos.com/en_OC/chef-s-knife-brooklyn-190823It's a bit of a weird knife since it only has about 45mm blade height so it's a bit like a slicer. I don't think their other blades are this low, but this is the one I got dirt cheap on some holiday sale for like 30-40 bucks. It rockchops a lot more comfortably than the Wüsthof for me. Also has really nice and comfy handles (maybe even the most comfortable of all the knives I own); I have large hands and this one works really well for me. As cherry on top they even rounded the spine a bit.
Grind was... what you'd expect for the pricepoint though (not stellar).
I have two Arcos. I don't know why, but I am not very interested in this brand. Maybe the fact that they use the same steel for the lower series than for the higher series make me think that the more expensive knives don't worth it.
You got your knife for a very good price ans the knife is beautiful. That was a good acquisition.
As you say, the blade is too low for that length.
I have a previous version of this (I guess the steel was different and better because the inscription says 'Molibdeno Vanadio'):
https://www.arcos.com/en_OC/chef-s-knife-opera-225100And the height is 46 mm.
I like to know that spanish products are known abroad.
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
The weird thing is that though on paper the Brooklyn 250 is 'too low' it's not a problem in usage at all. It rockchops great. But admittedly I'm in the not-so-tall knife camp; my favorite knife is my Masamoto KS (which is around 48-49). It does however go against current 'tall knife fashion'.
The steel isn't really remarkable yeah. But when the price is low enough I don't really mind. It's not really trying to compete against fancy J-knives; it's trying to compete against the mass-produced German ones, and that it does fairly well IMO.
The steel isn't really remarkable yeah. But when the price is low enough I don't really mind. It's not really trying to compete against fancy J-knives; it's trying to compete against the mass-produced German ones, and that it does fairly well IMO.
I agree with you; Arcos doesn't compete against japanese knives, but german knives. But that is clear because Arcos doesn't make any real japanese style knife.
He mentioned wanting a German belly. But for those who prefer the traditional profile you can get it with the pro bolsters.By the way, I forgot to mention it, but of the more 'traditional German stuff', the Robert Herder 1922 really is the best you can get. Certainly not cheap though. The K chef is another good option (better steel, lesser handle, flatter profile), but it will probably cost the same if not more. So both of them are in a price range where you can also buy very nice J-knives.
FTFY.
Though I agree the slanted half-bolster handles are nice... My Arcos knife ripped off that design and it's quite comfy.
https://www.zwilling.com/us/zwilling-pro-8-inch-traditional-chefs-knife-38411-203/38411-203-0.html
drrayeye
Senior Member
I use a Wusthof Classic Ikon 8" for rock chopping, but it's recently been overtaken in much of my use by a Shan Zu 8.3" aus10 Gyo Chef knife with a very similar profile:
https://www.shanzuchef.com/
It's a little bit harder and lighter with similar tapering and a k tip. I believe that variations of it are offered by Mercer Culinary as OEM and sold at restaurant supply.
Or he could buy yours.
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...r-1922-and-kitchenknife-id.63974/#post-988023
Never used one, but if I was in the market for a German style knife that isn’t 100 years old, that’s the one I’d buy.
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How could I forgot lolOr he could buy yours.
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...r-1922-and-kitchenknife-id.63974/#post-988023
Never used one, but if I was in the market for a German style knife that isn’t 100 yess years old, that’s the one I’d buy.
HappyamateurDK
Senior Member
It is a very nice knife, and I absolutely love mine. But it ain't exactly what he is looking for. It ain't got a lot of belly, the profile is more flat Sabatier style. And it is actually quite thin. That doesn't change the fact that it's a really really nice knife.
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
You're only describing why it would rockchop better...
drrayeye
Senior Member
Here's the Robert Herder Website: windmuehlenmesser.de
If I bought one, it would be the bolster free K series. I'm not a fan of the full bolster.
If I bought one, it would be the bolster free K series. I'm not a fan of the full bolster.
I have the same feeling about full bolster.
The one on the Robert Herder are not made like the modern Zwilling or Whustof stuff, it is much thinner and have slightly inward angle to help with sharpening.
It have more curvature than most of my knives, not as exaggerated as more recent German knives but similar to old style Solingen stuff.
Do you refer to K series?
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I've been using the 7-inch full bolster for several years as an all round utility knife rather than a chef. Its a super knife for that kind of use.
A knife with full bolster is uncomfortable to hold for me and more difficult to sharpen.
That doesn't mean it can't be a good knife.
